Not By Works

Shamah · Jan 11, 2018

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."[/FONT]

Ralph- · Jan 11, 2018

Budman said:

You like to make a distinction between a "little" sinning and "a lot" of sinning. If the Lord said telling a single lie will earn you a place in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8) then there is actually no distinction. Either all of our sins, past. present, and future, are paid for by the atonement, or we must pay. And our payment, for even a single sin, is eternal damnation.

Jesus commanded us to "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind..." (Luke 10:27.

Do you do that every second of every day? If not, guess what, you are not doing as the Lord has commanded and you are sinning.

By your reasoning, you are thus not a believer and are destined for hell. See how illogical you are being?

Yep. According to your logic, Paul is condemning himself as one living in sin, and will not inherit the kingdom. Because he said those things are what he does - not did.

Again, our works only justify us before men, and have nothing to do with retaining salvation, or as proof we are saved.

Tell me, what is the Judgment Seat of Christ all about?

Ralph, you don't think it even slightly odd that when it comes to proof of salvation, we point to our faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross, but you instead point to your works?

Does Matthew 7:22 give you pause at all?

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

Budman, do you 'live like' this?

Ralph- · Jan 11, 2018

dcontroversal said:

And we know that he had the righteousness that comes by faith by his obedience to God.

Ralph- · Jan 11, 2018

dcontroversal said:

And we know if we have that faith by if we have works of the Spirit.

If we have no works of the Spirit when Jesus comes back we will be showing that we did not have faith and we will be rejected. No claim to works of service in the church will save us. We will be rejected for being lawless.

Not keeping the commands of God shows that we do not have a saving relationship with God through Christ. If we are convicted by this truth, one of two things will happen. We will either be determined to walk in the Spirit thus proving that we know God and are saved, or we will dismiss this truth and blow it off insisting salvation is not by works, which will show that we do not know God and are not saved. His sheep hear his voice.

Ralph- · Jan 11, 2018

Shamah said:

Cain was envious that Abel acted righteously while he himself did not. His murderous envy of Abel's righteous deeds showed that he did not know God. People who live like that and are not changing do not inherit the kingdom. They show that they do not know God. They show they do not have the faith by which we please God.

We can get mad and insist this isn't true and beat up those who say it's true, or we can show ourselves to be a sheep that follows Jesus and turn to Him for his help to not be like Cain. His sheep hear his voice.

dcontroversal · Jan 11, 2018

Shamah said:

Abel offered his "works and faith" AS YHWH perscribed, Cain offered what he wanted to:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:4, “By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater sacrifice offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 3:12, “Not as Qayin who was of the wicked one and killed his brother. And why did he kill him? Because his works were wicked but those of his brother were righteous.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Why did Yah accept Able's offering and not Cain's? I believe it is because when one have sincere faith they will serve as Yah wants, rather than serving Yah as they want;

Genesis 4 WEB
“1, The man knew Eve his wife. She conceived, and gave birth to Cain, and said, “I have gotten a man with Yahweh’s help.
2, "Again she gave birth, to Cain’s brother Abel. Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3, "As time passed, it happened that Cain brought an offering to Yahweh from the fruit of the ground.
4, "Abel also brought some of the firstborn of his flock and of its fat. Yahweh respected Abel and his offering,
5, "but he didn’t respect Cain and his offering. Cain was very angry, and the expression on his face fell.
6, "Yahweh said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why has the expression of your face fallen?
7, "If you do well, will it not be lifted up? If you don’t do well, sin crouches at the door. Its desire is for you, but you are to rule over it.”

They both did works, and one's works were accepted one's works were not accepted. The heart that truly loves Yah will do as Yah says.

Genesis 4 WEB
3, "As time passed, it happened that Cain brought an offering to Yahweh from the fruit of the ground.
4, "Abel also brought some of the firstborn of his flock and of its fat. Yahweh respected Abel and his offering,
5, "but he didn’t respect Cain and his offering.

Cain offered "from the fruit of the ground"
Abel "also brought some of the firstborn of his flock and of its fat" the word also there means he brought "firstborn of his flock and of its fat" and "fruit of the ground"

Now this shows us that offering "fruit of the ground" was not in iteself wrong, so what could be the difference?

Hebrews 11:4, “By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater sacrifice offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.”

1 John 3:12, “Not as Qayin who was of the wicked one and killed his brother. And why did he kill him? Because his works were wicked but those of his brother were righteous.”

"By belief" and "works...of his brother (Abel) were righteous"

Why were they righteous? What is righteous?

Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]

You can keep your law abiding works based false salvation....Hebrews 11 is about faith not works and your works cafe blend false gospel is getting old...so is your inability to see the truth

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

1ofthem said:

those who will rebuke false doctrine are supposed to do so in a way no one can speak evil of them....

titus goes over this

but it also says

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

_____

we ARE to be zealous of good works

but when people try to teach they redeem themself and you are saved by ANYTHING other than His sacrifice
by grace through faith

they arent preaching truth

they are false teachers

even if unknowingly

many of those here with the wisdom to teach have been doing it for awhile

and you are right to provoke to GOOD works
and sound speech

but when youre trying to save lives from lies and spiritual deception from people who use underhanded tactics
i bet it gets pretty tiring and we arent perfect

so thank you

i believe what you are doing right now is keeping peace
and God loves that

notmyown · Jan 11, 2018

Ralph- said:

whyever would you think he does?

is it loving to assume the worst in people?

there's another list following that (the Bible is replete with lists, isn't it? lol). it's the fruit of the Spirit list.
let us never forget it's the fruit of the Spirit. it is He who produces that fruit in the believer.

i was recently faced with this, so it's fresh in my mind. 1 Cor 13 gives us a list of what love looks like.
do you think you stand up to that list?

Shamah · Jan 11, 2018

dcontroversal said:

Sorry but faith without works is dead.

James 2:17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead."

James 2:22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected?"

James 2:24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone."

Hebrews 11 is the ultimate faith and works passage:

Hebrews 11, By belief they performed an action;

11:1, "And belief is the substance of what is expected, the proof of what is not seen.

11:2, "For by this the elders obtained witness.

11:3, "By belief, we understand that the ages were prepared by the word of YHWH, so that what is seen was not made of what is visible."

11:4, "By belief, Heḇel offered to Yah a greater sacrifice offering than Qayin, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, Yah witnessing of his gifts. And through it, having died, he still speaks.

11:5, "By belief, Ḥanoḵ was translated so as not to see death, “and was not found because Yah had translated him.” (Gen 5:24) For before his translation he obtained witness, that he pleased Yah.

11:6, "But without belief it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.

11:7, "By belief, Noaḥ, having been warned of what was yet unseen, having feared, prepared an ark to save his house, through which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to belief.

11:8, "By belief, Aḇraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he was about to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.11:9, "By belief, he sojourned in the land of promise as a stranger, dwelling in tents with Yitsḥaq and Ya‛aqoḇ, the heirs with him of the same promise,"11:10, "for he was looking for the city having foundations, whose builder and maker is Yah.

11:11, "By belief also, Sarah herself was enabled to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the normal age, because she deemed Him trustworthy who had promised.

11:17, "By belief, Aḇraham, when he was tried, offered up Yitsḥaq, and he who had received the promises offered up his only brought-forth son,

11:20, "By belief, Yitsḥaq blessed Ya‛aqoḇ and Ěsaw concerning that which was to come.

11:21, "By belief, Ya‛aqoḇ, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Yosĕph, and did reverence on the top of his staff.

11:22, "By belief, Yosĕph, when he was dying, made mention of the outgoing of the children of Yisra’ĕl, and gave orders concerning his bones.

11:23, "By belief, Mosheh, having been born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a comely child, and were not afraid of the sovereign’s command. (Exo 2:2)

11:24, "By belief, Mosheh, having become great, refused to be called the son of the daughter of Pharaoh,"11:25, "choosing rather to be afflicted with the people of Yah than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a time,"11:26, "deeming the reproach of Messiah greater riches than the treasures in Mitsrayim, for he was looking to the reward.

11:27, "By belief, he left Mitsrayim, not fearing the wrath of the sovereign, for he was steadfast, as seeing Him who is invisible.

11:28, "By belief, he performed the Pĕsaḥ and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the first-born should touch them.

11:29, "By belief, they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, and when the Mitsrites tried it, they were drowned.

11:30, "By belief, the walls of Yeriḥo fell, having been surrounded for seven days.

11:31, "By belief, Raḥaḇ the whore did not perish with those who did not believe, having received the spies with peace.

11:33, "who through belief, overcame reigns, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,"11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight."11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection."11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment."11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,”

11:34, "quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became mighty in battle, put foreign armies to flight.

11:35, "Women received back their dead by resurrection. And others were tortured, not accepting release, to obtain a better resurrection.

11:36, "And others had trial of mockings and floggings and more, of chains and imprisonment.

11:37, "They were stoned, they were tried, they were sawn in two, they were slain with the sword. They went about in sheepskins, in goatskins, being in need, afflicted, mistreated,

11:38, "of whom the world was not worthy – wandering in deserts and mountains and caves and holes of the earth.

11:39, "And having obtained witness through the belief, all these did not receive the promise,

(11:13, "In belief all these died, not having received the promises, but seeing them from a distance, welcomed and embraced them, and confessed that they were aliens and strangers on the earth.)

11:40, "YHWH having provided what is better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us."

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
____________

the thing most people wrong

is they are speaking about what THEY DID for Jesus....

do you think anyone who believes He is their savior will try to justify themself by their works in His name?
____________

John 6:39-40
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Shamah · Jan 11, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Do you think those who disobey what Yahshua/Jesus says to do will have eternal life?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! Will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is word # G0458 - anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459, Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law, 1a) because ignorant of it, 1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

Shamah said:

Do you think those who disobey what Yahshua/Jesus says to do will have eternal life?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to Me; Master! Master! Will enter into the Kingdom of YHWH, but only he who does the will of My Father Who is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day; Master! Master! Have we not prophesied in Your Name, and cast out demons in Your Name, and in Your Name performed many wonderful works? But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."[/FONT]

“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]iniquity” is word # G0458 - anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459, Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1) the condition of without law, 1a) because ignorant of it, 1b) because of violating it, 2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."[/FONT]

do you think you obey Him well enough to be saved by your actions?

gb9 · Jan 11, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

that is all that thinking we can behave our way into Heaven is- a thought. not real. keeping the Sabbath will save no one.

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

gb9 said:

amen
Jesus is the way

notmyown · Jan 11, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

and where does faith come from? Who grants us new, living hearts and the desire and ability to repent?

i have no problem with people spurring one another on to do good. i DO have a problem with people saying that's the Gospel.

God will not share His glory with anyone. it makes me sad when someone tries to detract from what God in Christ has done for His people. which is, you know, everything.

mailmandan · Jan 11, 2018

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen brother!

James 2:14 - What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? (NIV)

James 2:14 - What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? (NASB)

What kind of faith is that? -- Empty profession of faith/dead faith and NOT living faith (Ephesians 2:5-10).

James also compared that faith to demons, who believe, ie, one can believe in God, you do well, But if you do not TRUST (HAVE FAITH) in God, what good is it? Can it save you. NO!

Click to expand...

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

*In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved.

Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works. DJ2 seems to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp a DEEPER faith which trusts in CHRIST ALONE for salvation, which also explains why he has so much faith in works.

saying one has faith is a CLAIMED FAITH. so YOU ARE WRONG.

Click to expand...

*One must not overlook the fact that James said "says-claims" to have faith in James 2:14.

Amen! There is no such thing as authentic faith that remains alone - "barren of works" but there is such a thing as an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works."

Shamah · Jan 11, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

Umm you didnt answer my question... When did I ever say this or even hint at this? Is this the default reaction to anyone who says obey His commands?

John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”

John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

Here is my answer; one can not by their own actions, myself included be found worthyu to enter, all need mercy, and in the same manner the unmerited mercy Yah offers does not make obedience obselete, but should drive us to seek obedience.

Luke 5:32, “I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”

is it you have been forgiven contine in sin? or sin no more?

John 5:14, “Afterward יהושע found him in the Set-apart Place, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, so that no worse matter befalls you.”

here is a good explanation:

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I write these things to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father: Yahshua Messiah, the Righteous; and He is the sacrifice of atonement for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

notmyown said:

Amen
well said...

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 6:44
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ezekiel 36:26

“A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.”

He provides

NoNameMcgee · Jan 11, 2018

ok shamah

if you want an answer

then what do you believe it means to obey Him
and in a way that leads to salvation?

so i know we are talking of the same thing

Shamah · Jan 11, 2018

NoNameMcgee said:

plaese re read my post I did answer. Right were it says "here is my answer"

you are the one who did not answer me.

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