Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Silence is golden. When you are called to love people but they have decided to close
the door, Amen, because ones obligations finish.

As a believer and follower of Jesus our calling is clear, preach the gospel in season and
out of season, calling people to repentance and to the cross.

And the cross has always been a call to lay down the passions of this world and take up
the anointing of love in Christ that flows from us.

Ofcourse a permanent ticket is reassuring, but the children of Israel thought they had bought
the same thing, where saved, baptised in the red sea, and still God judged and killed many of them.
How much more we who claim to know the living God will we be judged if we neglect His heart and
His word.

Gods grace is beautiful, but we are not bought without conditions, like faith, love and obedience.
How many children know their mothers will always love them, but they can go too far.

But in some peoples eyes this is impossible, except maybe the link has been broken, so the
sensitivity has gone, and the self made salvation has kicked in, because everyone in the world
is destined to paradise, lol. And slander, antipathy, are all signs of the same disease, sin without
redemption. God bless you all, Praise the Lord Jesus Christ is our King, Saviour and Lord,
died for our sins, and risen again to bring salvation to our souls and resurrection for our bodies.
Amen

Horrific example. The jews did not think they had BOUGHT permanent anything, they continually complained, griped. Attacked Moses. Showed LACK OF FAITH in God and his leaders (moses and Arron) and even convinced Gods priest to make a golden calf.

You do not PURCHASE eternal life, it is a gift, Given to you, Like God TRIED to give these people from Isreal. He will not force you to take it though. He tried to give it to them, but they rejected it, thus non of them entered in. Not because they were not good enough (no one is) but because they lacked faith.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What is the sin against the Holy Spirit?
Jesus may well have been warning us, when all attempts by the Lord to show us the way and
the state of our hearts, is called satan talking to us, we have imprisoned ourselves in a spiritual
coffin from which there is no escape.

So if greed, self indulgence, envy, hatred, lusts of this world have bound you, and those coming
in Gods name with His words are the enemy, beware you are not lost while delaring loudly the
messengers from the Lord are evil beyond belief, when all they have brought is love and understanding.

The sin against the HS was to claim the work of the HS was the work of Satan, ie to give someone other than the HS credit for the work of God. Ie, to call the HS a liar. Ie, to take the words of the HS concerning Gods plan of salvation, and reject it, ie UNBELIEF

He who believes is not condemned. He who does NOT BELIEVE is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of Jesus (blasphemy of the spirit)

Greed and all those other sins are sins against God, And apart from redemption via the cross There is no healing.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Faith without works is dead. To me that means the one cannot even genuinely exist without the other. Of course, the work is God’s work and of him. He is the one that provides the increase, but we still have to apply ourselves to the things of God and obey and do exactly what he says. We have to set our affections on things above, walk in the Spirit, obey God, and deny the flesh.

God does the saving, the cleaning up, and provides the increase if we accept him and allow him to work in our lives, but we have to be willing and obedient unto him. We have to live a good clean and holy life as specified by him in his word. He says be holy for I am holy.

We cannot just continue on in sin and say we can’t help it, and then think that it is all going to be alright. If we say we are bound to sin and just can’t stop it, then how can we honestly say that we have faith in Jesus knowing that he came to break the chains of sin? Of course, we will make mistakes along the way, but we can’t just sit down and dwell in sin. We have to repent, ask him for the strength to do his will, and get back up.

Jesus died to cleanse us from sin and give us the power to overcome. So we have to put our faith in him, trust him, and fight the good fight. Knowing that through Jesus we will overcome.

As far as works goes, it is not my place to judge any man’s work. Who am I to judge another man’s servant? God knows the hearts of everyone. He is the one that judges the works. He knows if someone is just trying to do good works to get praise of men and look good to others. Then again, on the other side of that coin, he also knows if someone is just sitting back being disobedient and not even applying themselves to him and his commandments. Personally, I don't think anyone that is standing on either side of those tracks is going to be justified.

So this is my understanding… it is God that leads us and guides us into righteousness and every good work, and God is the one that gives the increase, but we have to put forth the effort to seek him, obey him, and do exactly what he tells us to do. Faith without works is dead and vice a versa… works without faith is dead, as well.

If doing EXACTLY what God says is a prerequisite for faith. Then no one has faith. And we are all doomed. Because if we say we have no sin, we are4 deceiving ourself and there is no truth, if we are sinning, then we are not doing EXACTY what God says. And thus have no faith, and thus are not saved.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Ridiculous. Sin is sin regardless if one "stumbles" into it, or "lives" in it. You aren't grasping how serious God takes sin. Once again, a single sin attributed to us will damn us. Just one.

And, in fact, we all "live" in sin based on the fact we all still sin - every day. Just like the verse I quoted where Paul lamented that he wishes to do good, but only does evil instead.

you just have to love how they judge us as sinners. Yet claim they only stumble, make mistakes, have oopsie, I did not mean to do that, sins in order to excuse them

who is the one excusing sin? Those who admit it openly, or those who excuse it?

 

[johnthebaptist]

Horrific example. The jews did not think they had BOUGHT permanent anything, they continually complained, griped. Attacked Moses. Showed LACK OF FAITH in God and his leaders (moses and Arron) and even convinced Gods priest to make a golden calf.

You do not PURCHASE eternal life, it is a gift, Given to you, Like God TRIED to give these people from Isreal. He will not force you to take it though. He tried to give it to them, but they rejected it, thus non of them entered in. Not because they were not good enough (no one is) but because they lacked faith.

This is just scripture. Many have walked in faith, and yet faced judgement.
To deny this is simply to go against Gods testimony.

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:28-31

By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.
Heb 11:29

See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
Heb 12:25

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is just scripture. Many have walked in faith, and yet faced judgement.
To deny this is simply to go against Gods testimony.

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:28-31

By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as on dry land, but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.
Heb 11:29

See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.
Heb 12:25

The law says you have to obey ever word, or else you are under a curse

can you name 1 person who obeyed the law perfectly?

as for the jews, these same jews yelled mopse4s brought them their to die. And you call that faith? If you think that is faith, I question your knowledge of what faith is.

 

[DJ2]

EG,

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. James speaks of a faith, a faith that is missing something. That something is proper obedience.

People can believe, people can have faith and people can be misguided. Faith only regeneration theology is a misguided faith. A faith that has missed the mark. A faith much like Uzzah, sincere but misplaced.

"James is preaching against a CLAIMED FAITH, not FAITH ALONE."

Wrong. Read it again. He is preaching against faith alone not claimed faith. You are so deep into faith alone theology you can not even see it. If James was preaching against a claimed faith he would have wrote "claimed faith" and not wrote "faith alone".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. James speaks of a faith, a faith that is missing something. That something is proper obedience.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Read and weep my friend, James spoke of people who CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH, He NEVER said they had faith, about the most he said was their faith was dead, lifeless, non existent,

Who was he talking to? hearers of the word not doers. Are you going to sit in your chair and tell me people who never do a thing God says, had faith? How can you say you have faiht in someone and NEVER do what they say, that is not faith.

James also compared that faith to demons, who believe, ie, one can believe in God, you do well, But if you do not TRUST (HAVE FAITH) in God, what good is it? Can it save you. NO!

People can believe, people can have faith and people can be misguided. Faith only regeneration theology is a misguided faith. A faith that has missed the mark. A faith much like Uzzah, sincere but misplaced.

"James is preaching against a CLAIMED FAITH, not FAITH ALONE."

Wrong. Read it again. He is preaching against faith alone not claimed faith. You are so deep into faith alone theology you can not even see it. If James was preaching against a claimed faith he would have wrote "claimed faith" and not wrote "faith alone".

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


saying one has faith is a CLAIMED FAITH. so YOU ARE WRONG.

and again There is no such thing as faith alone, FAITH PRODUCES WORKS,

 

[Ralph-]

Ridiculous. Sin is sin regardless if one "stumbles" into it, or "lives" in it.

If there is no difference between sinning and living in sin then everyone, including you, will not inherit the kingdom. Read it.

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:21

There HAS to be a difference between living in sin and sinning, or else the above scripture is saying every single person will not inherit the kingdom. Including you.

And, in fact, we all "live" in sin based on the fact we all still sin - every day.

Then you will not inherit the kingdom.

Do yourself a favor and start recognizing the difference between sinning and living in sin. Then, get born again, if you're not already, and be saved, and stop living in sin by the power of the new birth and be saved when Jesus comes back, not rejected.

If you continue to live in sin you will be showing that you are not born again and do not want to be born again and you will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back. You will go to the left with the goats into the furnace. Not to the right into eternal life-Matthew 25:31-46.

Just like the verse I quoted where Paul lamented that he wishes to do good, but only does evil instead.

If Paul was talking about being this as a born again believer then he would be condemning himself by his own words about the person who lives in sin not inheriting the kingdom.

If you think about it, and you're honest, you will see that your argument comes down to 'believers and unbelievers alike all live in the same lifestyle of sin, but grace makes it so we can'. That's saying grace is a license to continue in your old life, the very thing people are sure they are not saying in this thread. Well, until you start making the distinction between sinning and living in sin that is exactly what you're saying.

 

[DJ2]

[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Read and weep my friend, James spoke of people who CLAIMED TO HAVE FAITH, He NEVER said they had faith, about the most he said was their faith was dead, lifeless, non existent,

Who was he talking to? hearers of the word not doers. Are you going to sit in your chair and tell me people who never do a thing God says, had faith? How can you say you have faiht in someone and NEVER do what they say, that is not faith.

James also compared that faith to demons, who believe, ie, one can believe in God, you do well, But if you do not TRUST (HAVE FAITH) in God, what good is it? Can it save you. NO!




[SUP]14 [/SUP]What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?


saying one has faith is a CLAIMED FAITH. so YOU ARE WRONG.

and again There is no such thing as faith alone, FAITH PRODUCES WORKS,

Once again, faith without the proper works is dead. What are the "proper works", that is up for debate. Paul makes it clear that it is not the "Law" but proper obedience is needed. Rahab, Abraham and unfortunately Uzzah are great examples of proper and improper obedience.

Can sincere faith without obedience profit anyone? No. but it does exist.

There are many biblical examples of real faith without proper works, you just turn a blind eye to them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again, faith without the proper works is dead.

Wrong, Faith without ANY work is dead, (james said if I CLAIM to have faith but have ZERO WORKS)

James never said a thing about proper works, your adding to the word of God. and that is wrong.

What are the "proper works", that is up for debate. Paul makes it clear that it is not the "Law" but proper obedience is needed. Rahab, Abraham and unfortunately Uzzah are great examples of proper and improper obedience.

Can sincere faith without obedience profit anyone? No. but it does exist.

There are many biblical examples of real faith without proper works, you just turn a blind eye to them.

Non of this matters, James said NO works, not proper works.

There are no examples of faith with zero works period. All faith has true works, not perfect works. Abraham had works, yet he committed many sins, David had works, yet he committed the worst sins man can commit.

I recommend you study what true faith is, Heb 11 would be a great start

Again, There is no such thing as faith apart from works, it is not there.

 

[PennEd]

If there is no difference between sinning and living in sin then everyone, including you, will not inherit the kingdom. Read it.

"The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God." Galatians 5:21

There HAS to be a difference between living in sin and sinning, or else the above scripture is saying every single person will not inherit the kingdom. Including you.




Then you will not inherit the kingdom.

Do yourself a favor and start recognizing the difference between sinning and living in sin. Then, get born again, if you're not already, and be saved, and stop living in sin by the power of the new birth and be saved when Jesus comes back, not rejected.

If you continue to live in sin you will be showing that you are not born again and do not want to be born again and you will not inherit the kingdom when Jesus comes back. You will go to the left with the goats into the furnace. Not to the right into eternal life-Matthew 25:31-46.



If Paul was talking about being this as a born again believer then he would be condemning himself by his own words about the person who lives in sin not inheriting the kingdom.

If you think about it, and you're honest, you will see that your argument comes down to 'believers and unbelievers alike all live in the same lifestyle of sin, but grace makes it so we can'. That's saying grace is a license to continue in your old life, the very thing people are sure they are not saying in this thread. Well, until you start making the distinction between sinning and living in sin that is exactly what you're saying.

Garden variety sin vs. living in sin? This is a fair question.

I think the answer always boils down to whether you have been born again or not.

I believe this is what Paul is getting at in Galatians and elsewhere. There are some who think they are saved, but either haven't confessed with their mouth Jesus is Lord, or haven't truly believed in their heart Jesus is raised from the dead.

Paul is telling these people basically, "Hey, if your heart is telling you that doing this laundry list of sins is ok then you need a NEW heart, you are deceiving yourself".

I don't believe born again Christians can "live" in these types of sin without serious consequences happening to them, up to and including, physical death. I think their Heavenly Father will do what is necessary to stop their prodigal living.

 

[1ofthem]

If doing EXACTLY what God says is a prerequisite for faith. Then no one has faith. And we are all doomed. Because if we say we have no sin, we are4 deceiving ourself and there is no truth, if we are sinning, then we are not doing EXACTY what God says. And thus have no faith, and thus are not saved.

What I am saying is that we will all make mistakes. No one is perfect, but we have been freed from the power of sin. Sin has no dominion over a true believer. The true believer is not a hearer only but a doer as well. Jesus says, if you love me keep my commandments. So yes, I think we have to obey God and do exactly what he says. No man can serve two masters and we are servants to whom we obey…whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Romans chapter 6 explains this well.

It is only through the grace of God that we are saved and it is his grace that keeps us, but we have to yield ourselves to him and be obedient unto him. We are not to continue on serving sin so that grace may abound…And no, we are no longer under the law, but that don’t mean that it is all right to just continue to sin and walk in the flesh. We are instructed to mortify the flesh and its deeds and walk in the Spirit. We are not under the law because we don’t need it to keep us in line anymore. We now have Jesus, and if we love him and have faith in him then we keep his commandments. And yes, we will all stumble and fall at times and that is where grace comes in. God gives us grace and mercy. If we truly have faith in him then we will do what he says which is to repent of our sins, ask for his grace and mercy, get back up, and follow Jesus with our whole heart. True faith in God will not allow us to just sit down and be disobedient and let sin rule over us, and say we can't help it. To me that type of attitude shows a lack of faith in Jesus because we know he died so that we can overcome sin through him and his grace.... but we do have to be willing and obedient.

To me, it is not I got saved the end…It is I got saved now it’s time for me to grow in the grace of God and put my faith into action by seeking God, being obedient, and doing what he says.

EG, I respect you and am not throwing off on you here…just trying to clarify my view on this.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Garden variety sin vs. living in sin? This is a fair question.

I think the answer always boils down to whether you have been born again or not.

I believe this is what Paul is getting at in Galatians and elsewhere. There are some who think they are saved, but either haven't confessed with their mouth Jesus is Lord, or haven't truly believed in their heart Jesus is raised from the dead.

Paul is telling these people basically, "Hey, if your heart is telling you that doing this laundry list of sins is ok then you need a NEW heart, you are deceiving yourself".

I don't believe born again Christians can "live" in these types of sin without serious consequences happening to them, up to and including, physical death. I think their Heavenly Father will do what is necessary to stop their prodigal living.

well said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What I am saying is that we will all make mistakes. No one is perfect, but we have been freed from the power of sin. Sin has no dominion over a true believer. The true believer is not a hearer only but a doer as well. Jesus says, if you love me keep my commandments. So yes, I think we have to obey God and do exactly what he says. No man can serve two masters and we are servants to whom we obey…whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Romans chapter 6 explains this well.

When I hear these words, I hear sinless perfection. You can not claim we have to do EXACTLY what God says, and then say we do not have to do it perfectly. that is contradicting yourself. (at least in my opinion)

Now. saying that, we agree, people who are saved do obey God, where we disagree is saying we HAVE to do everything God says or else (well the law says this, but who can obey the law) it is impossible for a baby child of God to even know what God commands, let alone be able to do them, and failure to do them is sin.

It is only through the grace of God that we are saved and it is his grace that keeps us, but we have to yield ourselves to him and be obedient unto him. We are not to continue on serving sin so that grace may abound…And no, we are no longer under the law, but that don’t mean that it is all right to just continue to sin and walk in the flesh. We are instructed to mortify the flesh and its deeds and walk in the Spirit. We are not under the law because we don’t need it to keep us in line anymore. We now have Jesus, and if we love him and have faith in him then we keep his commandments. And yes, we will all stumble and fall at times and that is where grace comes in. God gives us grace and mercy. If we truly have faith in him then we will do what he says which is to repent of our sins, ask for his grace and mercy, get back up, and follow Jesus with our whole heart. True faith in God will not allow us to just sit down and be disobedient and let sin rule over us, and say we can't help it. To me that type of attitude shows a lack of faith in Jesus because we know he died so that we can overcome sin through him and his grace.... but we do have to be willing and obedient.

No one is saying otherwise. I am dumbfounded (not saying you are, just saying) as to why people say because they believe in grace alone through faith alone, they must be practicing or excusing sin, when this is just not so.

To me, saying I must continue to be saved by grace is saying I can not live up to Gods standard (perfection) and this is why I will Continue to need grace.

Not that I am saved so now I can live however I want, (as many churches will claim this means, and many people will go to their graves believing this is true)

if anyone says this, to me they have not yet repented, and are not saved.

To me, it is not I got saved the end…It is I got saved now it’s time for me to grow in the grace of God and put my faith into action by seeking God, being obedient, and doing what he says.

It is to me also. And also every born again child of God I have ever met. No person I have ever met has ever taught, or believed, we are now saved, that is it, I can go on and life life to the fullest, what I do does not matter.

EG, I respect you and am not throwing off on you here…just trying to clarify my view on this.

We agree Grace is not a license to sin, Salvation is the beginning of our walk, not the end.

 

[johnthebaptist]

The law says you have to obey ever word, or else you are under a curse

can you name 1 person who obeyed the law perfectly?

as for the jews, these same jews yelled mopse4s brought them their to die. And you call that faith? If you think that is faith, I question your knowledge of what faith is.

14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be!
16 Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
Romans 6:14-16

 

[johnthebaptist]

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. 35 By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.
John 13:34-35

The sign of believers is the love they have one for another.

 

[johnthebaptist]

Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
1 Tim 1:8-11

The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, 7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1 Tim 1:5-7

 

[eternally-gratefull]

14 For sin will not have dominion over you. For you are not under law, but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? May it never be!
16 Don't you know that to whom you present yourselves as servants to obedience, his servants you are whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
Romans 6:14-16

That did not answer my question.

The law says perfection is required. do you know anyone who is perfect?

I never stated sin will have dominion over a person, it will not, that does NOT mean we will be sinless.

 

[johnthebaptist]

That did not answer my question.

The law says perfection is required. do you know anyone who is perfect?

I never stated sin will have dominion over a person, it will not, that does NOT mean we will be sinless.

You ask a question that scripture does not answer.
What we are called to do is walk righteously, with a pure heart, in love.
If we stumble, we confess, repent and walk on.

You talk like a legalist, who says no one training should qualify because they
as yet have not sorted out all the wrinkles and issues.

Is a failed legalist any better than a hypocritical legalist who denies their sin?
Nope, they are in the same problem, no love, no purity, no heart.

We are called to
You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.
Luke 10:27

Only a legalist says impossible, rather than I have a long road to walk, so I
better start now, with Christs help and heart, I will attain all that He promised.
Amen