The Rapture

[DiscipleDave]

First of all, when your posts are this long I don't read them. You need to only address the immediate issues with short, to the point, posts.

should i type slower for you? Sorry, i write whatever the Holy Spirit of God puts on my heart to say, i am sorry there seems to be a lot to say to you. What is to me if you do not read what God has told me, that is on you, no me.

Also i know the reason you do not read the long posts, there are many questions that you can't answer, therefore using the excuse that they are too long for you to read is but an excuse not to answer the questions presented to you. i do understand your excuses though, they are questions you can't answer.

Also i am going to respond to everything you say in a post, i think that is the Godly thing to do, therefore if you do not want me to reply to EVERYTHING you say in a post, make your post smaller.

Who do you think gathers the Church? So Jesus comes down from Heaven to Gather the Church then goes back to Heaven and comes back again, which is what YOU call the second coming.

Regarding the above, just as scripture states, the Lord is going to come back and take us to the Father's house to those places that he prepared for us which are in heaven.

i am not disagreeing with this statement, only disagreeing with where YOU say His House is during the Rapture.

While we are there we will be judged at the Bema seat of Christ, not for sin, but to receive reward or loss of reward.

Scriptures?

According to Rev.19:6-8, we will also be present at the wedding of the Lamb and will receive our fine linen, white and clean. After that and after God's wrath has been poured out, the Lord will return to the earth to end the age and according to Rev.19:14 we will follow the Lord out of heaven riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen that we will have received previously at the wedding of the Lamb.

know you not that we receive our Glorified bodies at the time of the Rapture? What? do you think we are all naked at that time, and not given the white clothes ? Seriously, We are Raptured up Naked, go to Heaven Naked, wait a thousand years Naked then come back down to Earth in the Holy City to be judged and clothed with clothing FINALLY. Really, is that your logic? People we are given white clothes the moment we are given back our Glorified bodies, the Holy City is the Bride, which Jesus the Groom brings with Him, when He gathers the Saints, and we are all Raptured up to be with Him at the Wedding right then and there, When the Rapture is complete, we go in to the Holy City in the Air, which is so tall that it is above the clouds, and we eat the marriage supper of the Lord. The Wedding does not go on with any guest. When we are Raptured we go into the Holy City with Jesus Clothed, and in our Glorified bodies and the wedding commences. Do not believe anyone who teaches things contrary to what God has told me will take place. These are learned men who God has not spoken with, teaching their own doctrines which in no way even lines up with scriptures.

So, the church both dead and living will be caught up in our immortal and glorified bodies to meet the Lord in the air

All this is absolutely True, then you go on to add YOUR own interpretation to what Scriptures teach by saying:

and will remain in heaven during the time of God's wrath and we will then return with Christ to the earth to end the age at the end of that seven years.

NONE of that Scriptural. Scriptures does not teach we return to Heaven, that is what Ahwatukee teaches. Scriptures does not teach we will return a third time to the Earth at the end of the age, that is what Ahwatukee teaches. Which he testifies that what he teaches comes from his own intellect, his own studies of Scriptures. Scriptures please? If you teach these things, surely you can show the Scriptures that also teach these things, or are they just from you, and what you believe will happen?

At that time, the Lord will establish his millennial kingdom where we will rule with him.

Tell me, according to you the HOly City comes down after the 7 year Tribulation Period, after the thousand years, After the Great white throne judgment where all the evil wicked are gone, and then the Holy City comes down, tell me Who are they that we Rule over with Jesus. There is Jesus, there are the Saints the Rule with Him. Satan and demons and all evil people are cast into Hell for all eternity. Tell me, you say we rule with Him, Rule over WHO? Can you answer, or this yet another question that you do not know the answer to, because your belief has so many holes in it?

The new Jerusalem dose not come down out of heaven until after the millennial kingdom and the great white throne judgment which follows.

You say this, but where are the Scripture back that belief up? What there are none? Really? No Scriptures that teach what you just said above. OK then surely there are Scriptures that you have interpreted them to mean what you say above is True, can you reveal those Scriptures? What you can't do that either? So then what you are saying is, What you say above is TRUE, yet no Scriptures teach it, or even imply that it is True. So then i am left questioning in what way did you come to this knowledge that what you say above it True? Did you use any Scriptures at all to support this belief or did this belief comes to you is some other way aside from Scriptures? Seriously i am not trying to be mean or anything , i really want to know how you came up with what you say above? Because it was not From scriptures.

Scripture has the new Jerusalem coming down after this current heaven and earth has passed away and when the new heaven and new earth are created.

Scriptures plainly teach the New Jerusalem comes down during the time that New Heaven and New Earth is being Created. There are no Scriptures that teach or imply that it is AFTER it is Created, that is an assumption, that is a persons own interpretation that reads that into the Verse.

Scriptures teach the New City Jerusalem comes down during a time when the Earth is New and the Heaven is New, the problem is you think that time is in the end of the age, AFTER the thousand years of satan bound.

Here is what God revealed to me. The 7 year Tribulation Period has a two fold reason for happening. 1) to bring the wrath of God to the Earth and 2) it is the process of creating the New Heaven and New Earth. The 7 year Tribulation Period is 7 years of mountains moving, islands disappearing, Oceans being drained, mountains sinking, deserts become lush, Tropical becomes desert. The 7 Trumpets and 7 vials are all judgements from God, but they serve a duel purpose, they are also destroying the OLD Earth and the Old Heaven. During the thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth, satan is going to be bound, there will be no more tears, no more sinning, no more wickedness, no more temptations, no thefts, no lies. During the thousand years of the already made New Earth and New Heaven (created during the 7 year Tribulation Period) The Saints, the Father's House, Jesus Christ and the 144,000 will all be on Earth in paradise for 1,000 years until satan and his followers are released. When they are released there will be a huge battle for the Holy City. satan wants it, it is his ticket off this Earth, he gets a hold of that City, he can travel any where in the universe that he so deems, he will be free. This is the Agreement that God made with satan. That after he is bound for one day (thousand human years) That satan can take all the souls that he has gained and try to take the City, if he succeeds he will be free. Why do you think satan can't just kill all the evil when he wants to, because satan is bound to the agreements that has been set up before he was even cast out of Heaven. Who do you think let satan in the Garden of Eden to begin with, it was God.
So satan currently is trying to get as many souls as he can for the final battle, he falsely believes if he can outnumber the enemy that he can actually win and take over the city, we shall see. i can't say more about that at this time.
What i said above is what God told me, what is it to me if you do not believe God who told me these things?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Lafftur]

Well, well, interesting discussion....everybody put your swords down! LOL!

The Rapture, like gravity, is going to happen no matter what. Some understand the physics of gravity and some do not.

The Holy Spirit will teach, lead, guide, counsel and instruct each of us. Let us keep the union of the Spirit in love.

 

[Endoscopy]

should i type slower for you? Sorry, i write whatever the Holy Spirit of God puts on my heart to say, i am sorry there seems to be a lot to say to you. What is to me if you do not read what God has told me, that is on you, no me.

Also i know the reason you do not read the long posts, there are many questions that you can't answer, therefore using the excuse that they are too long for you to read is but an excuse not to answer the questions presented to you. i do understand your excuses though, they are questions you can't answer.

Also i am going to respond to everything you say in a post, i think that is the Godly thing to do, therefore if you do not want me to reply to EVERYTHING you say in a post, make your post smaller.





i am not disagreeing with this statement, only disagreeing with where YOU say His House is during the Rapture.



Scriptures?



know you not that we receive our Glorified bodies at the time of the Rapture? What? do you think we are all naked at that time, and not given the white clothes ? Seriously, We are Raptured up Naked, go to Heaven Naked, wait a thousand years Naked then come back down to Earth in the Holy City to be judged and clothed with clothing FINALLY. Really, is that your logic? People we are given white clothes the moment we are given back our Glorified bodies, the Holy City is the Bride, which Jesus the Groom brings with Him, when He gathers the Saints, and we are all Raptured up to be with Him at the Wedding right then and there, When the Rapture is complete, we go in to the Holy City in the Air, which is so tall that it is above the clouds, and we eat the marriage supper of the Lord. The Wedding does not go on with any guest. When we are Raptured we go into the Holy City with Jesus Clothed, and in our Glorified bodies and the wedding commences. Do not believe anyone who teaches things contrary to what God has told me will take place. These are learned men who God has not spoken with, teaching their own doctrines which in no way even lines up with scriptures.



All this is absolutely True, then you go on to add YOUR own interpretation to what Scriptures teach by saying:



NONE of that Scriptural. Scriptures does not teach we return to Heaven, that is what Ahwatukee teaches. Scriptures does not teach we will return a third time to the Earth at the end of the age, that is what Ahwatukee teaches. Which he testifies that what he teaches comes from his own intellect, his own studies of Scriptures. Scriptures please? If you teach these things, surely you can show the Scriptures that also teach these things, or are they just from you, and what you believe will happen?



Tell me, according to you the HOly City comes down after the 7 year Tribulation Period, after the thousand years, After the Great white throne judgment where all the evil wicked are gone, and then the Holy City comes down, tell me Who are they that we Rule over with Jesus. There is Jesus, there are the Saints the Rule with Him. Satan and demons and all evil people are cast into Hell for all eternity. Tell me, you say we rule with Him, Rule over WHO? Can you answer, or this yet another question that you do not know the answer to, because your belief has so many holes in it?



You say this, but where are the Scripture back that belief up? What there are none? Really? No Scriptures that teach what you just said above. OK then surely there are Scriptures that you have interpreted them to mean what you say above is True, can you reveal those Scriptures? What you can't do that either? So then what you are saying is, What you say above is TRUE, yet no Scriptures teach it, or even imply that it is True. So then i am left questioning in what way did you come to this knowledge that what you say above it True? Did you use any Scriptures at all to support this belief or did this belief comes to you is some other way aside from Scriptures? Seriously i am not trying to be mean or anything , i really want to know how you came up with what you say above? Because it was not From scriptures.


Scriptures plainly teach the New Jerusalem comes down during the time that New Heaven and New Earth is being Created. There are no Scriptures that teach or imply that it is AFTER it is Created, that is an assumption, that is a persons own interpretation that reads that into the Verse.

Scriptures teach the New City Jerusalem comes down during a time when the Earth is New and the Heaven is New, the problem is you think that time is in the end of the age, AFTER the thousand years of satan bound.

Here is what God revealed to me. The 7 year Tribulation Period has a two fold reason for happening. 1) to bring the wrath of God to the Earth and 2) it is the process of creating the New Heaven and New Earth. The 7 year Tribulation Period is 7 years of mountains moving, islands disappearing, Oceans being drained, mountains sinking, deserts become lush, Tropical becomes desert. The 7 Trumpets and 7 vials are all judgements from God, but they serve a duel purpose, they are also destroying the OLD Earth and the Old Heaven. During the thousand Year Reign of Christ on Earth, satan is going to be bound, there will be no more tears, no more sinning, no more wickedness, no more temptations, no thefts, no lies. During the thousand years of the already made New Earth and New Heaven (created during the 7 year Tribulation Period) The Saints, the Father's House, Jesus Christ and the 144,000 will all be on Earth in paradise for 1,000 years until satan and his followers are released. When they are released there will be a huge battle for the Holy City. satan wants it, it is his ticket off this Earth, he gets a hold of that City, he can travel any where in the universe that he so deems, he will be free. This is the Agreement that God made with satan. That after he is bound for one day (thousand human years) That satan can take all the souls that he has gained and try to take the City, if he succeeds he will be free. Why do you think satan can't just kill all the evil when he wants to, because satan is bound to the agreements that has been set up before he was even cast out of Heaven. Who do you think let satan in the Garden of Eden to begin with, it was God.
So satan currently is trying to get as many souls as he can for the final battle, he falsely believes if he can outnumber the enemy that he can actually win and take over the city, we shall see. i can't say more about that at this time.
What i said above is what God told me, what is it to me if you do not believe God who told me these things?

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

It is obvious to the casual observer that you are very egotistical and long winded. I and many others just ignore long winded diatribes like your posts. It is obvious you never heard of the KISS method. It is very popular among electronics and software people. They are areas that can get very complicated. Therefore engineers are reminded to Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). You should do the same. I haven't bothered to read this post but am telling you why I and others ignore it!!! Instead of one long winded post make multiple short posts keeping to the point for each issue.

 

[Endoscopy]

There are 4 main eschatologyical views that theologians have worked on for centuries. All are Biblical. I find it ridiculous that some people think they have all the correct single viewpoint in one view. Here are the four views of eschatology oh superior Dave. Refute what theologians for centuries have come up with. Put your ego aside and study them to accurately refute them.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are 4 main eschatologyical views that theologians have worked on for centuries. All are Biblical

Morning Endoscopy,

How can each view be Biblical, when only one view can be correct?

The major obstacle that every view faces, except for the pre-tribulation view, is the wrath of God which is positioned in between now and the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that the Lord said that he would keep us out of that hour of trial, these other views are forced to reinterpret God's wrath by diluting it, historicizing, allegorizing, symbolizing it and/or relocating it in order to satisfy this issue.

The wrath of God is always the main concern regarding the chronological order of when the church will be gathered.

Only one view can be Biblical and correct.

 

[Endoscopy]

Morning Endoscopy,

How can each view be Biblical, when only one view can be correct?

The major obstacle that every view faces, except for the pre-tribulation view, is the wrath of God which is positioned in between now and the time when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Since scripture states that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath and that the Lord said that he would keep us out of that hour of trial, these other views are forced to reinterpret God's wrath by diluting it, historicizing, allegorizing, symbolizing it and/or relocating it in order to satisfy this issue.

The wrath of God is always the main concern regarding the chronological order of when the church will be gathered.

Only one view can be Biblical and correct.

Because of the symbology in Daniel and Revelation. Are you going to tell me you clearly understand the symbology in both of those books? The statue in Daniel is understood today because of the history since then. Looking backwards it is obvious but not when written. Much of the rest of the symbology has the same problem. Theologians looking at that symbology have created 4 distinct but different views consistent with the symbols. I posted a few times before links to this issue. Did you bother to read them? Here they are again. Read them and try to refute them if you believe you know the one and one right view.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

I get tired of repeating myself!!

 

[Endoscopy]

Why do people read Daniel and Revelation and come up with a single concept they claim is the one and only correct view. I'm 73 and when I was in late teens and early 20s I several times studied Daniel, Revelation, and the few verses in the New Testament Gospels and Epistles relating to this. All I got was a problem creating a single view. Later I became first a deacon and later an elder. The pastors at the church I went to had classes for newly elected officers. Part of the class dealt with the 4 different Biblical versions eschatology. The church at that time had 4 pastors with each favoring a view. Each supported a different view but all admitted they could be wrong.

Theologians working on the issue for centuries have found that the 4 views are Biblical. That is the problem with the massive symbology involved. Only when it comes to pass will the correct view be known.

How anyone can claim they have the one and only correct view is beyond me after studying the issue for many years.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The statue in Daniel is understood today because of the history since then. Looking backwards it is obvious but not when written.

Actually if you study Daniel carefully the only empire not mentioned by name is the Roman empire. But Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Graeco-Macedonia (called "Grecia") are all mentioned in Daniel.

BABYLON
And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold. (Dan 2:38)


MEDO-PERSIA
The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

GRAECO-MACEDONIA
And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. (Dan 8:20,21)



And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia. (Dan 11:2)

 

[louis]

Why do people read Daniel and Revelation and come up with a single concept they claim is the one and only correct view. I'm 73 and when I was in late teens and early 20s I several times studied Daniel, Revelation, and the few verses in the New Testament Gospels and Epistles relating to this. All I got was a problem creating a single view. Later I became first a deacon and later an elder. The pastors at the church I went to had classes for newly elected officers. Part of the class dealt with the 4 different Biblical versions eschatology. The church at that time had 4 pastors with each favoring a view. Each supported a different view but all admitted they could be wrong.

Theologians working on the issue for centuries have found that the 4 views are Biblical. That is the problem with the massive symbology involved. Only when it comes to pass will the correct view be known.

How anyone can claim they have the one and only correct view is beyond me after studying the issue for many years.

Correct,
When things start to get really bad as indicated in Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24, and we either find ourselves off the planet or still on it will we then know.

 

[Lafftur]

Oh my gosh! I'm laughing so hard!! I love the KISS concept - Keep It Simple Stupid! LOL!

The scripture that comes to mind is "KISS the Son, least He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in Him." Psalm 2:12

Sidenote: No need to complicate the Word of God - Keep It Simple Stupid! LOL!

 

[Lafftur]

Okay, listen - Nobody knows anything unless the Holy Spirit tells us. If the Holy Spirit has shown you something, keep it, hold on to it - no matter what others say or do!

I John 2:27 - "the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him."

God bless - stay in love

 

[Speak2Me]

I got on the internet today searching for early church fathers that believed in a pre-trib rapture, & surprise!, there were several sites that quoted early church fathers speaking on it.

The writer that kept pointing to Darby was basically, what else can I say, lying, because of Darby wrote about it around 2-3 years earlier than Margaret MacDonald's vision. It's an obvious falsehood.

John Gill in his writings mentions the rapture several times, proving the doctrine existed before Darby.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Because of the symbology in Daniel and Revelation. Are you going to tell me you clearly understand the symbology in both of those books? The statue in Daniel is understood today because of the history since then. Looking backwards it is obvious but not when written. Much of the rest of the symbology has the same problem. Theologians looking at that symbology have created 4 distinct but different views consistent with the symbols. I posted a few times before links to this issue. Did you bother to read them? Here they are again. Read them and try to refute them if you believe you know the one and one right view.

Here are a couple of sites discussing the 4 main eschatologyical views. Notice some have minor variations.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm

Eschatology, end times, & millennialism: Competing theories

I get tired of repeating myself!!

I've already read them years ago, as I have the book of the four views. As I said, the reason that there are four different views is due to misinterpretation and misapplication of scripture. Another problem is the teaching that everything in Revelation is symbolic. When one approaches the book in this manner, he misses the literal meaning that God meant to covey and replaces it with some other meaning.

Give me an example of symbolism from Revelation and I can give you the answer and show you the scripture. I don't know meaning of every thing regarding end-time events, but what I do know I am adamant about and contend for.

 

[Endoscopy]

I got on the internet today searching for early church fathers that believed in a pre-trib rapture, & surprise!, there were several sites that quoted early church fathers speaking on it.

The writer that kept pointing to Darby was basically, what else can I say, lying, because of Darby wrote about it around 2-3 years earlier than Margaret MacDonald's vision. It's an obvious falsehood.

John Gill in his writings mentions the rapture several times, proving the doctrine existed before Darby.

The problem is rapture is a theological term and isn't in the Bible. There are other theological words like that. They are used to define an issue. One word instead of many.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The problem is rapture is a theological term and isn't in the Bible. There are other theological words like that. They are used to define an issue. One word instead of many.

The word "rapture" is the Latin equivalent of the Greek "Harpazo," which as I previously posted means to snatch up, force suddenly exercised, to be caught up. If you don't like the word "rapture" then use the original "Harpazo," which carries the same meaning.

That said, there is no loss in the meaning of the living in Christ being caught up or snatched up (Harpazo) immediately after the dead are raised.

 

[Endoscopy]

I've already read them years ago, as I have the book of the four views. As I said, the reason that there are four different views is due to misinterpretation and misapplication of scripture. Another problem is the teaching that everything in Revelation is symbolic. When one approaches the book in this manner, he misses the literal meaning that God meant to covey and replaces it with some other meaning.

Give me an example of symbolism from Revelation and I can give you the answer and show you the scripture. I don't know meaning of every thing regarding end-time events, but what I do know I am adamant about and contend for.

Your ego is amazing. You claim to know better than the theologians that for centuries have studied this. When someone talks like that I think about Jim Jones. He brought a new meaning to "drinking kool-aid."

 

[Endoscopy]

The word "rapture" is the Latin equivalent of the Greek "Harpazo," which as I previously posted means to snatch up, force suddenly exercised, to be caught up. If you don't like the word "rapture" then use the original "Harpazo," which carries the same meaning.

That said, there is no loss in the meaning of the living in Christ being caught up or snatched up (Harpazo) immediately after the dead are raised.

Red herring post. I was explaining to the person the problem of using Google. You are getting annoying.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Your ego is amazing. You claim to know better than the theologians that for centuries have studied this. When someone talks like that I think about Jim Jones. He brought a new meaning to drinking kool-aid.

So you are saying that God can't reveal His word to whomever he wants? You have to be an acclaimed theologian in order for God to reveal his word to you? As I said before, all of the views cannot be Biblical and correct, period.

God did not give us the book of Revelation so that we could not know it, but so that we could know it. By the way it is not my ego, but the certainty of scripture as taught by the Holy Spirit. Give me something from Revelation that the other views claim and I will demonstrate why it is wrong.

 

[Lafftur]

Hello Ahwatukee, I love scripture taught by the Holy Spirit! Has the Holy Spirit shown you anything about the 4 living creatures at the throne in Rev. chapter 4? If yes, I'd love to hear it!

So you are saying that God can't reveal His word to whomever he wants? You have to be an acclaimed theologian in order for God to reveal his word to you? As I said before, all of the views cannot be Biblical and correct, period.

God did not give us the book of Revelation so that we could not know it, but so that we could know it. By the way it is not my ego, but the certainty of scripture as taught by the Holy Spirit. Give me something from Revelation that the other views claim and I will demonstrate why it is wrong.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

Hello Ahwatukee, I love scripture taught by the Holy Spirit! Has the Holy Spirit shown you anything about the 4 living creatures at the throne in Rev. chapter 4? If yes, I'd love to hear it!

The Holy Spirit will not reveal to you anything that is not in Scripture.
One should be very careful of those who have "special" insight or understanding.