Not By Works

[Ralph-]

Number of people who have changed their belief from all the number of posts presented by opposing beliefs-0.

The debate continues.

That is one thing about a debate for it is like a boxing match as they use different approaches to the same conclusion in hopes to cause the other person to see it their way,and that is why it can drag on so long.

A right jab here,a left hook there,a straight right,an uppercut,coming in at different angles with their debate,wording it differently,using different tactics,hoping to get in that knock out blow to put them away and win them over to their belief.

It can go on for a 1000 years,but who changes their beliefs.

Number of people who have changed their belief from all the number of posts presented by opposing beliefs-0.

The debate continues.

You will not be hearing,Yo Adrian,I did it,on this thread.

See the farmer who waits patiently for the crop.... Sound familiar? Somewhere in James 5?

You do not know where and when the seeds of the truth will come to fruition in someone's life. We just need to be patient and let it happen. Then if we have been successful we will be rewarded at the resurrection.

 

[Ralph-]

Nope. I know whom I have believed.

Do you have the life to prove it? Are you changed and changing from what you were before you believed? If so, then you show that you have a correctly placed and genuine faith in God's forgiveness. If not, at the very least you can not know for sure. At worst, you really dont'.

 

[UnderGrace]

Well a lot of pain and suffering to come out of a dead ineffective faith (yet knowing I was still saved), but true to His word the Good Shepherd came and found me

This truth is so attacked and hidden in todays world of "faith without works is dead." really means you are not saved or were never really saved.

Exactly, Even those who know salvation is a singular event that cannot be undone, fall into this trap and it brings weakness to the message of the Gospel when not properly understood.

Great explanation Sis.

This truth is so attacked and hidden in todays world of "faith without works is dead." really means you are not saved or were never really saved.

Very,very very few believers have James figured out as applied to all His word. Encouraging to read and know you have it applied as we should as believers.

 

[Magenta]

Wait a minute. You previously said you have your own righteousness. Now you admit you have none of your own? Which is right now in your sight.

Contradictions as the one to which you just responded show the nature of what we are dealing with here quite well. It is okay for them to be human and have failings and stumble occasionally in their walk, but when others do, it is cited as evidence and/or proof that the others are not saved. We see this quite regularly from such.

 

[stonesoffire]

Do you have the life to prove it? Are you changed and changing from what you were before you believed? If so, then you show that you have a correctly placed and genuine faith in God's forgiveness. If not, at the very least you can not know for sure. At worst, you really dont'.

I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, and the life I now live, I live by the faith of the Son of God who loves me, and gave His life for me.

 

[Mercy4u]

Exactly, Even those who know salvation is a singular event that cannot be undone, fall into this trap and it brings weakness to the message of the Gospel when not properly understood.

Not only does it undermine His simple salvation plan. It attacks His very character and nature and virtue.

We end up being "fact checkers", "evidence checkers" And check mark him and her off the salvation list and go on to the next poor soul to 'see' if they are really saved or not. And have left a slew of possible true witness opportunities(Actual Divine Good/works/fruit) behind us.

 

[BillG]

Only when they conveniently grab for the once saved always argument to justify their lack of works and being saved despite that.

The argument itself is quite meaningless. It doesn't change the fact that fruitless barren fields will be burned in the end.

I have to be totally honest here. I have never met anyone who believes in OSAS, justify lack of works and still be saved.

I have only ever met two people who have used OSAS, to justify sin. It's OK God knows I will sin and will forgive me.
Whilst that is true it's not an excuse to sin. The two people (two separate couples) I knew anticipated sinning (basically having sex before marriage)
To them it was God understands our urges and will forgive 'when we act on them'

Now that we can judge, just as Paul did in Romans. Grace is not a licence to sin.



Lack of works we cannot judge.

What are works?

How do we define them according to true salvation?

It's very easy to judge a level of works and assume if they do not meet that level we place on it, then they are not saved.

 

[stonesoffire]

Uh oh, here comes the attacks......

Never said I have my own righteousness.

[h=3]

Re: Not By Works[/h]

I have the rigtheousness of Christ. The tax collector you cite in Luke had his own righteousness. I'm not going to pretend I'm not the righteousness of Christ. You can if you want to but I'm not...


scripture does not say this.

Upright is the correct word for a moral person. But, morals do not equal the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus that is imputed to His own.

So who said this?​

 

[UnderGrace]

Interesting, Never seen it this way.

I see james as telling the people he wrote to to test their faith to see if it is real or not. To be doers of the word also. Not just doers. He was saying people who have just a claimed faith are equal with demons, who also believes yet tremble. (Ie anyone can claim to have faith, but does that mean they really had it?

he also said, can a claimed faith save them? (The context of the whole argument, if one claims to have faith but have not works, can THAT CLAIMED FAITH save them? So to me it is not about sanctification, but about justification.

James to me is fighting easy believism like Jude was speaking against licentiousness. I believe they both spoke of the same thing,

This is a modern day lens you are relating it to...more important to see it as James writing to Jewish believers and where they are coming from.

Can faith save him? cannot contradict Paul... so important not to read in salvation in to this as often happens.

He is talking to Jewish believers who are having difficulty understanding the role of works since the knew the just will live by faith.

James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking judgment that believers will face.

But once we are saved it is works that will be judged by under the Law of Liberty.

Saved here means to deliver, salvation is not in view, it is judgement at the seat of Christ for believers


Let me paraphrase it this way


These new Jewish believers have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”

 

[lightbearer]

Re: Not By Works..Always a pleasure stonesoffire

I agree lightbearer.

Thank you for saying so stonesoffire it such a long study I was a bit afraid that it would not be read.

I was going to post this work that we do have last evening but wasn't the right timing.

2Ti 2:14 Remind others about these things, and warn them before God not to argue over words. Arguing does not do any good but only destroys those who are listening.


2Ti 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as an approved worker who has nothing to be ashamed of, handling the word of truth with precision.


This is the ISV.

I am not a fan of the ISV.

I like the KJV better, because it says to study.Study the scriptures. Seek to see Jesus out of what we study. That was His words when I began, and am grateful He did speak this.

Me too. Amen. All translations have issues though. In the age of information GOD has made it a lot easier for people like us to find them. Even if we just utilize a Strong's Concordance through the Spirit we will be ahead of the game. Praise GOD for instilling in us the desire; amen.

So our work is to seek to know Him, and in this work, we are being changed into His likeness. For we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. Then we give Him in truth and life to others.
​

Amen, You made these verses come to me, "... seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring."
(Act 17:27-28 KJV)

The last scripture is when we turned from evil we were converted. Repentance isn't just that one time though. As we see Him, we repent or change our minds concerning Him.

​

I think it depends on the individual. Our Faith through HIM makes us whole. I put no limitations on what GOD can do through us. For it is GOD that works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure. This is the way we bare through the temptation and escape that which is common to man.

We can do all things through Christ Jesus who strengthens us. Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being separated from our sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes we were healed. With man this was impossible, but with GOD all things are possible.
(1Pe 2:24 )


Nice talking to you again stonesoffire. May the LORD continue to bless us in all HIS Way; Jesus Christ.

 

[Mercy4u]

This is a modern day lens you are relating it to...more important to see it as James writing to Jewish believers and where they are coming from.

Can faith save him? cannot contradict Paul... so important not to read in salvation in to this as often happens.

He is talking to Jewish believers who are having difficulty understanding the role of works since the knew the just will live by faith.

James 2:12-13. So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. These verses are talking judgment that believers will face.

But once we are saved it is works that will be judged by under the Law of Liberty.

Saved here means to deliver, salvation is not in view, it is judgement at the seat of Christ for believers


Let me paraphrase it this way


These new Jewish believers have asked, “What role does works play?” and James has answered, “Before the judgment seat of Christ, it is works that will be profitable.”

Truth. You go Sis!

 

[7777pinacled]

Actually, I never said He lusted. I said He probably (may have) envied the prisoner set free in His place.. Saying "I bet" or "probably" does NOT make it a fact written in stone.. Just becaused I voiced an opinion about it, doesn't mean that it's true.

To even write such a thing leads me to have serious reservations. You have just been made an example to what never to say.
Further more your intentions for visiting this chat forum are now made manifest by your own words.

[FONT=&quot]“Watch out for false prophets[/FONT][FONT=&quot]. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 By their fruit you will recognize them[/FONT]

 

[posthuman]

=eternally-gratefull;3408468]

[/B]So what "work" did someone on this forum create and preach their Salvation depends on it EG? You claim people base their Salvation in works they created. Can you give me one example where someone has created a "work" and then said their "hope" rests on this creation?



I don't believe anyone on this forum has created "Standards" to live by. Some may follow the "Standards" Jesus created. Some follow the "Standards" created by Constantine and the Catholic Church, others follow standards created by various religious franchises and preachers and authors.

It would be great if you could back up your bold statement with any example of a person who created their own religious standard to "live up to".

didn't you just give examples yourself - Constantine, the RCC, various religious franchises, preachers, authors

 

[preacher4truth]

Only when they conveniently grab for the once saved always argument to justify their lack of works and being saved despite that.

"They?" "They" who? You've offered not one factual quote to substantiate your premise. It should be easy to find since you think it happens perpetually.

So I ask, where has this been taught on here? Actual quotes that someone has taught this, not lies that you drum up and falsely accuse with, actual statements to back this up please?

You've already conflated Free Grace Theology with Reformed doctrine and stated that the latter preaches one can have no works or evidence and be saved. This isn't true. Stop lying? Maybe?

I'm looking for actual evidence, not your fabrications and bloviations which have no substantiation.

You do realize that what you say on here in accusing others is unfounded, right? How is it that you continue to say Calvinists believe something that is knowingly false?

I suppose I am asking you, "Ralph-" why you find it necessary to spout lies on others and offer fakenews?

Now, I'll make you an offer: Go fetch one quote that supports your above false accusation, and if it proves you right, I'll support you on it.

The argument itself is quite meaningless.

Your arguments are meaningless, other than the fact that you'll give an account for lying about the beliefs of others, saying people have said things they haven't &c. Why is it that this is your fruit on here? Many have called you on doing this. Why do you continue to do this?

It doesn't change the fact that fruitless barren fields will be burned in the end.

Not only the barren fields, but the ones which produce briers and thorns, i.e. "unfruit" such as lying and misrepresenting and other evidences of false conversion. For the record, the passage is speaking of the fate of an apostate, not sheep.

Do you always see sheep when they are goats, and vice versa?

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you have the life to prove it? Are you changed and changing from what you were before you believed?

You need to be asked the same thing given you falsely accuse others here of things never stated. Your bearing false witness so often is quite troubling. Why are you not changed from what you are?

 

[posthuman]

Produce the mature fruit of the kingdom.

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control​

 

[BillG]

Do you have the life to prove it? Are you changed and changing from what you were before you believed? If so, then you show that you have a correctly placed and genuine faith in God's forgiveness. If not, at the very least you can not know for sure. At worst, you really dont'.

The problem here can be is that if one is told or believes that is works that saves and we must do and don't do then it leads a wrong focus.
The focus will be on what we have not done to the detriment of how we have grown.

It is so easy to come before God with guilt and condemnation and walk away with that.
We focus on what we have not done rather than focus on what God has done for us and in us.

It should be reversed.

We come before God and thank him for helping us today, the bit of us that had decreased and he's increased. Refining us.
It's not boasting but being thankful.

After that then we can bring before him what he reveals to us what we have not got right.
We acknowledge it and ask for help.

Focus is the key.

Is it on us and what we have not done or is it on Jesus and what he has done?

If it's on Jesus then anything can happen, if it's not?

 

[7777pinacled]

Actually, I never said He lusted. I said He probably (may have) envied the prisoner set free in His place.. Saying "I bet" or "probably" does NOT make it a fact written in stone.. Just becaused I voiced an opinion about it, doesn't mean that it's true.

[h=3]The Great Commission[/h][FONT=&quot] Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.
When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted.
Then Jesus came to them and said,
“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”[/FONT]

[h=1]1 John 5New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]Faith in the Incarnate Son of God[/h][FONT=&quot]5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify:8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.[/FONT]

Never did his Flesh and blood, water, spirit or any faculties have any faults.
The clear distinction is that it was satan who tempted our Lord and savior, at an appointed time i might add.

So please,
In the future be more careful.
As for the subject of works, this is why it is inconceivable for a person without the Holy Spirit to see the works of the kingdom.
The baptism Father, Word, Holy Spirit and on earth in Spirit water and blood.


Even the parable of the rich man was an example of work.
[h=1]Matthew 19:16-30Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)[/h][h=3]A Rich Man Refuses to Follow Jesus[/h][FONT=&quot]16 A man came to Jesus and asked,
“Teacher, what good thing must I do to have eternal life?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 Jesus answered,
“Why do you ask me about what is good? Only God is good. But if you want to have eternal life, obey the law’s commands.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 The man asked, “Which ones?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Jesus answered,
“‘You must not murder anyone, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not tell lies about others, 19 you must respect your father and mother,’[a] and ‘love your neighbor[b] the same as you love yourself.’[c]”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 The young man said, “I have obeyed all these commands. What else do I need?”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 Jesus answered,
“If you want to be perfect, then go and sell all that you own. Give the money to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come and follow me!”[/FONT]

 

[7777pinacled]

the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control​

I believe the mature fruit will be twelve manner of fruit.
the first nine are from the youth who need nurturing till they mature.

 

[Cee]

The problem here can be is that if one is told or believes that is works that saves and we must do and don't do then it leads a wrong focus.
The focus will be on what we have not done to the detriment of how we have grown.

It is so easy to come before God with guilt and condemnation and walk away with that.
We focus on what we have not done rather than focus on what God has done for us and in us.

It should be reversed.

We come before God and thank him for helping us today, the bit of us that had decreased and he's increased. Refining us.
It's not boasting but being thankful.

After that then we can bring before him what he reveals to us what we have not got right.
We acknowledge it and ask for help.

Focus is the key.

Is it on us and what we have not done or is it on Jesus and what he has done?

If it's on Jesus then anything can happen, if it's not?

Good stuff Bill! Paul said it like this: forgetting the past while pursuing the UPWARD call of Christ. To obtain what He has already obtained for us!