Not By Works

[mailmandan]

If you think having to have works when Jesus comes back is a 'faith plus works' works gospel then you think Calvinism is a works gospel too. Has to be, because Calvinism says the true believer perseveres to the very end in righteousness or else he was never saved to begin with. That means you have to have works in salvation. Calvinism says you have to have works or you were not really saved.

Salvation by "faith plus works" is a works gospel. Salvation by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) is not a works gospel. It's not about "must" have works to be saved but WILL have works if you are truly saved. Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root. That is the balance that gets out of balance by those who teach salvation by works.

From beginning "have been saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8) to end "receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls" (1 Peter 1:9) salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). We SHOW our faith by our works (James 2:18) yet we are not saved by works (Romans 4:4-6).

You people did not realize after all these pages of chatter that you are not being true to your own Calvin beliefs when you say you do not have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. You people have been insisting that that your own Calvin beliefs are a works gospel and you didn't even realize it. And you didn't realize that to say works are not required to be saved when Jesus comes back is hypergrace teaching, which you are not allowed to discuss in this forum.

Labeling "you people" as Calvinists and your straw man arguments are not helping the discussion. Works do not cause us to be saved but they show that we are saved (James 2:14-26).

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26). Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[Ralph-]

Amen.....workers for cannot stand the truth....it hammers their working for dogma...they will do all they can to try and discredit the truth......We are saved by grace and faith......works do not help that one off eternal process!

You've been discrediting Calvinism quite well all by yourself.

You're going to have to make up your mind if the 'P' in TULIP is a works gospel or not, because 'P' means you have to have works to be saved, or else you were never saved to begin with.

You know where this is going. Works being required for salvation (Calvinism) doesn't have to mean those works are you trying to save yourself. You have rejected every argument about works being required for salvation when Jesus comes back not realizing your own Calvin beliefs require you to have works when Jesus comes back or else you were never really saved to begin with.

 

[DJ2]

Amen! Romans 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or evidenced the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was justified by works-- he was "shown to be righteous."

Why Abraham? Why of all the people on Earth would God pick Abraham? Did God see something special in Abraham or was it just a random pick?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You've been discrediting Calvinism quite well all by yourself.

You're going to have to make up your mind if the 'P' in TULIP is a works gospel or not, because 'P' means you have to have works to be saved, or else you were never saved to begin with.

You know where this is going. Works being required for salvation (Calvinism) doesn't have to mean those works are you trying to save yourself. You have rejected every argument about works being required for salvation when Jesus comes back not realizing your own Calvin beliefs require you to have works when Jesus comes back or else you were never really saved to begin with.

People have to remember their end game (fran/peter/ISIT/HRFTD/Ralph and many others)

It is a war against calvanism and what They term as “hypergrace” It is not a discussion about what WE believe (they continually prove they have no idea what we believe, even though they are told by countless people over and over again.)

Thats why their will never be reasoning with these people. If their argument is based on lies and ignorance of what others believe, then their can be no discussion. Because of the second issue,Non of them are humble enough to admit they may be wrong about peoples. Belief system, they will always classify hypergrace or calvanism, no matter how many times they are told otherwise.

 

[Ralph-]

It's not about "must" have works to be saved but WILL have works if you are truly saved.

Come on dan. Same thing! You know this.

If the saved person WILL have works, or else they aren't saved, means they MUST have works, or else they're not saved.


You know where this is going, right?

I'm making you see that works being required for salvation does not have to mean you are trying to earn your own salvation by those works (If it does then that means Calvinism is a works gospel.) But that is the argument you and others have leveled against every single argument in this thread for works being required in salvation. You people instantly think that has to mean you're trying to add your own self righteousness to faith, all the while adhering to your own Calvin belief that says you have to have works or else you're not saved. Time to get real here.

 

[mailmandan]

Why Abraham? Why of all the people on Earth would God pick Abraham? Did God see something special in Abraham or was it just a random pick?

Is that supposed to somehow negate Romans 4:2-6 and Romans 4:9-10?

 

[mailmandan]

Come on dan. Same thing! You know this.

Saved by works and saved for works is not the same thing.

If the saved person WILL have works, or else they aren't saved, means they MUST have works, or else they're not saved.

Are you saying MUST have works to SHOW they are saved?

You know where this is going, right?

I've seen where these types of discussions have been going for several years now.

I'm making you see that works being required for salvation does not have to mean you are trying to earn your own salvation by those works (If it does then that means Calvinism is a works gospel.)

Required FOR salvation or required FROM salvation?

But that is the argument you and others have leveled against every single argument in this thread for works being required in salvation. You people instantly think that has to mean you're trying to add your own self righteousness to faith, all the while adhering to your own Calvin belief that says you have to have works or else you're not saved. Time to get real here.

Saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works is getting real. Works are produced FROM salvation and NOT FOR salvation. You need to choose your words wisely. Here is an example of someone below that I was in a discussion with on a Christian forum who had this to say about salvation and works:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

​Do you see a problem with his statement?

 

[Ralph-]

People have to remember their end game (fran/peter/ISIT/HRFTD/Ralph and many others)

It is a war against calvanism and what They term as “hypergrace” It is not a discussion about what WE believe (they continually prove they have no idea what we believe, even though they are told by countless people over and over again.)

Thats why their will never be reasoning with these people. If their argument is based on lies and ignorance of what others believe, then their can be no discussion. Because of the second issue,Non of them are humble enough to admit they may be wrong about peoples. Belief system, they will always classify hypergrace or calvanism, no matter how many times they are told otherwise.

Who said I was against the 'P' in TULIP? Can I start throwing around the famous accusations of slander and straw man now?

 

[DJ2]

Don't be deceived by those who teach that grace is a license to sin; yet at the same time, don't be deceived by those who teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works" either.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

don't be deceived by those who teach that salvation is by "grace plus law, faith plus works" either

And don't be deceived by those who teach that salvation is by "grace plus faith that is rightly understood and practiced properly".

 

[LoveGodForever]

Saved by works and saved for works is not the same thing.
Are you saying MUST have works to SHOW they are saved? I've seen where these types of discussions have been going for several years now. Required FOR salvation or required FROM salvation? Saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works is getting real. Works are produced FROM salvation and NOT FOR salvation. You need to choose your words wisely. Here is an example of someone below that I was in a discussion with on a Christian forum who had this to say about salvation and works: "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."
​Do you see a problem with his statement?

But MMD how can you teach the Word of God when you do not know the Gospel?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

And don't be deceived by those who teach that salvation is by "grace plus faith that is rightly understood and practiced properly".

We are not, thats why we will not believed by your faith plus works theology but continue to stand for grace plus the living faith which truly saves

 

[Ralph-]

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

​Do you see a problem with his statement?

Of course I do. We all do. Don't drag out a rouge quote to try to make a case that's what everybody opposed to you is saying. You know full well that is not what is being pushed in this thread.

Address the issue. It's impossible for you to vehemently defend the 'P' in TULIP and then roast everyone else who comes along who says works are required to be saved when Jesus comes back.

Maybe your argument is with HOW a person has the works that they MUST have to be saved when Jesus comes back. And I have not seen anyone here saying the works you must have to be saved are you and you alone producing them in a self righteous effort of work. We all know it is the Holy Spirit working those works in us BECAUSE WE ARE SAVED. Which is what Calvinism says.

 

[DJ2]

Saved by works and saved for works is not the same thing.

Are you saying MUST have works to SHOW they are saved?

I've seen where these types of discussions have been going for several years now.

Required FOR salvation or required FROM salvation?

Saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works is getting real. Works are produced FROM salvation and NOT FOR salvation. You need to choose your words wisely. Here is an example of someone below that I was in a discussion with on a Christian forum who had this to say about salvation and works:

"It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit."

​Do you see a problem with his statement?

Saved by works and saved for works is not the same thing.

My bible states saved by works - "Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?" James 2:24

 

[DJ2]

We are not, thats why we will not believed by your faith plus works theology but continue to stand for grace plus the living faith which truly saves

If you push trust only regeneration theology you most certainly do.

Only universal reconciliation theology can truly hold claim to salvation by grace alone.

 

[mailmandan]

Of course I do. We all do.

Great! Now be careful with the word MUST. Those who are self righteous are trusting in their works (to one degree or the other) as the means of their salvation. Genuine believers/Christians are trusting 100% in CHRIST ALONE as the means of their salvation. All genuine believers/Christians are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23).

 

[mailmandan]

If you push trust only regeneration theology you most certainly do.

Only universal reconciliation theology can truly hold claim to salvation by grace alone.

Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not about universalism. So you don't trust exclusively (only) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? So which works "in addition" to Christ are you trusting in for salvation?

 

[LoveGodForever]

Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not about universalism. So you don't trust exclusively (only) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? So which works "in addition" to Christ are you trusting in for salvation?

But MMD how can you teach the Word of God when you do not know the Gospel?

 

[blue_ladybug]

Are you trying to say that God is NOT our "all sufficient means" of our salvation? It is through Jesus that we come to God. It is through His grace and our faith that we are saved.. Our works do not save us, nor do they get us into heaven. They are not to be done for the purpose of keeping salvation.

And btw, MMD knows the Gospel very well.

But MMD how can you teach the Word of God when you do not know the Gospel?

 

[DJ2]

Is that supposed to somehow negate Romans 4:2-6 and Romans 4:9-10?

No, just a question.

It seems to me that God saw something in Abraham. Same goes for David, King Saul, Solomon etc.

 

[DJ2]

Salvation by grace through faith, not works is not about universalism. So you don't trust exclusively (only) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation? So which works "in addition" to Christ are you trusting in for salvation?

So you don't trust exclusively(only) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of your salvation?

And neither do you. Trust only regeneration theology teaches that the person's act of trusting is the claim of salvation, not grace. This is your work, this is your claim, you deserve salvation because you did this act.

Do not act as if you are not professing a faith plus works theology. The act of falling backwards into someone else's arms is most certainly an action that takes effort.