Not By Works

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Ralph-

Guest
#47,861
#47,861
Cee said:
Yes I do. I will answer you with direct Scripture quotes:

I died to the law. I am now reborn in Christ. It is not I who live, but Christ in me. The life I now live is not for self, but for righteousness unto God. I am a new creation. I carry the ministry of reconciliation which God makes His appeal through my life to no longer be apart from Him, but to be reconciled to God. I am now cleansed, justified, and glorified in Him. I am a holy priesthood that serves my Lord. And His commands are not grievous to me because His yoke is easy and light. He has given me the right to be His child and thus I am like Him and I represent Him on the Earth, as He is so am I in this world. His Spirit and my spirit are joined together. I am His Body and He is my Head.
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Sin no longer rules over you because the flesh has been crucified in Christ through the giving of the Holy Spirit.

When someone is living in slavery to the sin they show they have not been crucified. They are still in the flesh. they are not born again. You can only be a slave to the law and have it arouse sin in you if you are still in the flesh. That's the point. The law does not promote or increase sin in the believer because their flesh is dead in Christ. Only unbelievers are provoked to sin by the law.

If the 'believers' in this thread are provoked by the law to sin all the more, they show they are not born again.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#47,862
#47,862
TruthTalk said:
Hypergrace is not being taught in this thread, if it was this thread would have been closed down -- more of your constant lies and false accusations.
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Will you please shut up with this lies and accusations stuff?

I pointed out that you people don't even realize you're not being true to Calvin doctrine by defending the teaching that you do not have to have works to be saved. You didn't even know this. I'm pointing it out to you.

Calvinism says if you do not have faith as evidenced by works in a persevering to the very end you were never saved to begin with. It is hypergrace doctrine that says you do not have to persevere to the end in the Spirit and you will still be saved. You are no longer adhering to Calvinism when you get all bent out of shape at the teaching that you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Calvinism says if you don't have works when Jesus comes back, you never really believed to begin with. You did not even realize this.
 
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hardsell

Banned
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Dec 27, 2017
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#47,863
Ralph- said:
Sin no longer rules over you because the flesh has been crucified in Christ through the giving of the Holy Spirit.

When someone is living in slavery to the sin they show they have not been crucified. They are still in the flesh. they are not born again. You can only be a slave to the law and have it arouse sin in you if you are still in the flesh. That's the point. The law does not promote or increase sin in the believer because their flesh is dead in Christ. Only unbelievers are provoked to sin by the law.

If the 'believers' in this thread are provoked by the law to sin all the more, they show they are not born again.
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waiting for the inevitable: "So do you sin" question in 4, 3,2 1 and then the gnashing of teeth , renting of clothes, blood letting and proud proclamations of being a sinner, and the only thing real about it all is to add another couple hundred pages to the thread.

This whole thread is just directions on a shampoo bottle:

RINSE AND REPEAT.
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#47,864
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
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#47,864
Ralph- said:
Sin no longer rules over you because the flesh has been crucified in Christ through the giving of the Holy Spirit.

When someone is living in slavery to the sin they show they have not been crucified. They are still in the flesh. they are not born again. You can only be a slave to the law and have it arouse sin in you if you are still in the flesh. That's the point. The law does not promote or increase sin in the believer because their flesh is dead in Christ. Only unbelievers are provoked to sin by the law.

If the 'believers' in this thread are provoked by the law to sin all the more, they show they are not born again.
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If this is true why does Paul, Peter, and James all tell Christians how to live their life in Christ. If it was simply done on conversion this wouldn't be necessary. But we see exhortations to not sin repeatedly.

No one is saying Christians should sin. But a few appear to be saying Christians can't sin.
 
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hardsell

Banned
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Dec 27, 2017
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Cee said:
If this is true why does Paul, Peter, and James all tell Christians how to live their life in Christ. If it was simply done on conversion this wouldn't be necessary. But we see exhortations to not sin repeatedly.

No one is saying Christians should sin. But a few appear to be saying Christians can't sin.
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You cannot continue working it out by having one foot in light and one foot in darkness, Paul, Peter and James also tell Christians that as well.

Who is appearing to say Christians will not sin? I have not said that and have even stated I still sin. I think many of you ought to work in a paint shop for a living, because you seriously like to stir things up.
 
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Mercy4u

Banned
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Nov 12, 2017
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#47,866
Ralph- said:
Will you please shut up with this lies and accusations stuff?

I pointed out that you people don't even realize you're not being true to Calvin doctrine by defending the teaching that you do not have to have works to be saved. You didn't even know this. I'm pointing it out to you.

Calvinism says if you do not have faith as evidenced by works in a persevering to the very end you were never saved to begin with. It is hypergrace doctrine that says you do not have to persevere to the end in the Spirit and you will still be saved. You are no longer adhering to Calvinism when you get all bent out of shape at the teaching that you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Calvinism says if you don't, you never really believed to begin with. You did not even realize this.
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Ralph,
perseverance of the saints and loss of salvation are the SAME thing. They are not preservation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The calvinist says "you lost the salvation that you THOUGHT you had. Or were really not saved." And the Armin says , "You lost your salvation."

They BOTH depend on the works/fruits/perseverance of the believer. And neglect the fact that the moment we believe we are sealed for the day of redemption and will NEVER perish.

Our service/works after we believe are rewarded or burned. The gift of eternal life stands for anyone who believes/trusts in Christ and HIS WORKS.
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#47,867
May 14, 2010
2,169
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#47,867
Further more what's actually happening in this thread is the minimizing of what sin is.

So let me tell you Scripture says sin is: anything outside of faith is sin.

When you know what to do and don't do it, it's sin.
If you go by poor people and you feel God saying bless them and you don't do it, you sin.
If you struggle with worry over the next day, that's sin because Jesus said don't worry.
If you don't love your brothers and sisters as yourself that's sin.

We can try to clean the outside of the cup and pronounce ourselves sinless because that's exactly what Pharisees did. But it's the INSIDE of the cup that Christ is cleaning and that's usually a process that happens through being renewed in our mind.

It's so much of a process that PAUL says he hadn't yet attained what Christ laid ahold of for him, but he strives for the UPWARD call of Christ forgetting his past.

Like I said no one says Christians should sin, I am a very vocal voice against sin, but I also understand that anything that is not out of love and out of faith is considered sin from the purest sense in Scripture.

C.
 
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Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#47,868
May 14, 2010
2,169
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#47,868
If I mistook your thesis I apologize. So then what are you saying?

hardsell said:
You cannot continue working it out by having one foot in light and one foot in darkness, Paul, Peter and James also tell Christians that as well.

Who is appearing to say Christians will not sin? I have not said that and have even stated I still sin. I think many of you ought to work in a paint shop for a living, because you seriously like to stir things up.
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Mercy4u

Banned
#47,869
Nov 12, 2017
203
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#47,869
Cee said:
Further more what's actually happening in this thread is the minimizing of what sin is.

So let me tell you Scripture says sin is: anything outside of faith is sin.

When you know what to do and don't do it, it's sin.
If you go by poor people and you feel God saying bless them and you don't do it, you sin.
If you struggle with worry over the next day, that's sin because Jesus said don't worry.
If you don't love your brothers and sisters as yourself that's sin.

We can try to clean the outside of the cup and pronounce ourselves sinless because that's exactly what Pharisees did. But it's the INSIDE of the cup that Christ is cleaning and that's usually a process that happens through being renewed in our mind.

It's so much of a process that PAUL says he hadn't yet attained what Christ laid ahold of for him, but he strives for the UPWARD call of Christ forgetting his past.

Like I said no one says Christians should sin, I am a very vocal voice against sin, but I also understand that anything that is not out of love and out of faith is considered sin from the purest sense in Scripture.

C.
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It isn't about sin. Everyone here knows that living in a life of sin will be MISERABLE. And we have no chance to advance in His plan.

It is about those who think that they have their sin all figured out and are living "the good life." Not one person here promotes sin. But many promote their "good life."


And they are in a worse spot......How great is our darkness if we think we are in the light?
 
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oldethennew

Banned
#47,870
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
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#47,870
don't know about what ya'll believe, but
1John 3:4.
tells us that 'Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

we're going with what he says, ya'll do what makes you feel good and righteous...
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
#47,871
#47,871
This is true, this is the what Calvinism teaches, they demand evidence of conversion otherwise the person is not saved.

Ralph- said:
Will you please shut up with this lies and accusations stuff?

I pointed out that you people don't even realize you're not being true to Calvin doctrine by defending the teaching that you do not have to have works to be saved. You didn't even know this. I'm pointing it out to you.

Calvinism says if you do not have faith as evidenced by works in a persevering to the very end you were never saved to begin with. It is hypergrace doctrine that says you do not have to persevere to the end in the Spirit and you will still be saved. You are no longer adhering to Calvinism when you get all bent out of shape at the teaching that you have to have works to be saved when Jesus comes back. Calvinism says if you don't have works when Jesus comes back, you never really believed to begin with. You did not even realize this.
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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#47,872
#47,872
Preserverance is Not preservation.

Thank you for making that important distinction! :)

Mercy4u said:
Ralph,
perseverance of the saints and loss of salvation are the SAME thing. They are not preservation by the Lord Jesus Christ.

The calvinist says "you lost the salvation that you THOUGHT you had. Or were really not saved." And the Armin says , "You lost your salvation."

They BOTH depend on the works/fruits/perseverance of the believer. And neglect the fact that the moment we believe we are sealed for the day of redemption and will NEVER perish.

Our service/works after we believe are rewarded or burned. The gift of eternal life stands for anyone who believes/trusts in Christ and HIS WORKS.
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Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#47,873
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
#47,873
I love my good life.

The gospel is the good news.

I am so highly blessed to be able to be His son. And to be lead by His Spirit.

We have such an incredible life. And if I die for the gospel which could happen, well that just means the good life keeps on continuing in eternity with Him!

But if you mean living the world's idea of a good life I agree.

I did live the "world's good life" and that life sucked. A lot of people told me they thought my life was amazing, but inside I was simply chasing the next thing/sin that I thought would fulfill me. But when God got ahold of me He changed it all. I gave Him drugs, drinking, sleeping around, etc. And He gave me true peace, joy, meaning, fulfillment, life, love, family, and so much more.
 
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stonesoffire

stonesoffire

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#47,874
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
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#47,874
Cee..is great to have you back! I always learn so much from you. :)

Welcome to the new members, mercy, hardsell, and others.

I totally enjoyed the postings this evening!
 
Cee

Cee

Senior Member
#47,876
May 14, 2010
2,169
473
83
#47,876
Great to see you too!!!

Hugs :)

stonesoffire said:
Cee..is great to have you back! I always learn so much from you. :)

Welcome to the new members, mercy, hardsell, and others.

I totally enjoyed the postings this evening!
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dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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Tommy379 said:
Well skimming through this thread, I see two opposing forces. One side believes faith alone is sufficient for salvation. The other side believes it requires obedience to the law.

The question is, if one is saved by faith, then commits murder, what is the consequences from God?

So far, no one has answered this, and I would like to know.
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David did just that.....he never lost his salvation but rather paid the price dia chastisment and the loss of his innocent son who took his place <---a picture of Jesus
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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eternally-gratefull said:
What if someone is saved by faith and lies? what if they are saved and know to do right and does not do it? What if they are saved and covets their neighbors new car or his house, or his wife?

Why do you have to use murder? If you read this thread, you will see people who use murder as a strawman usually are using it to puff themse4lf up. Not saying you are. Just saying that is the norm, so if you continue,. You probably will not be responded to very well. because of past history of people who use this strawman.
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Amen.....break the least (a little lie) guilty of the whole...as guilty as a murderer, thief or fornicator........and NO ONE KEEPS OR HAS KEPT THE LAW EXCEPT Jesus.......
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

Banned
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tourist said:
I thought that I would submit this verse for consideration. My own personal belief is that salvation only requires confession and repentance of sin, that the shed blood of Jesus dying on the cross for our sins is sufficient. So faith is required and that any works performed after salvation are a manifestation of salvation only and not a cause of it. Still, this verse is very interesting in how in applies to the saved born again believer.

​
Phil 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.​
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Amen...the verse means to fit out...grow, mature, be converted in your daily life, etc.....it does not in any way shape or form mean work for that which you already possess eternally by faith....
 
dcontroversal

dcontroversal

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Seohce said:
IF WE READ ROMANS 12:9-21, WE CAN SEE HOW LOVE WORKS. AND IF WE READ HEBREWS CHAPTER 11 WE CAN SEE HOW FAITH WORKS.

Q; CAN FAITH WITHOUT WORKS SAVE?

A: NO, BECAUSE FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD (James 2:14-26)

Q: CAN FAITH WITHOUT LOVE SAVE?

A: NO, BECAUSE GOD IS LOVE (1 john 4:8 & 16) AND OUR FAITH SHOULD BE IN GOD.

Q: DOES FAITH ALONE SAVE?

A: NO, THE SCRIPTURES TELLS US THAT WE ARE JUSTIFIED NOT BY FAITH ALONE.(James 2:24) NEITHER IS IT BY WORKS ALONE.(Ephesians 2:8-9) BUT THEY ARE WORKING TOGETHER.(James 2:22)

...A FAITH THAT WORKS IN LOVE.( Galatians 5:6)

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and iIF I HAVE A FAITH that can move mountains,BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I am nothing....
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But THE GREATEST of these IS LOVE.

.2 John 1:6 And this is love: that WE WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you WALK IN LOVE.

1 John 5:3 This is love for God: TO OBEY HIS COMMANDS. And his commands are not burdensome,

1 John 3:16-18 THIS IS HOW WE KNOW WHAT LOVE IS: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

Matthew 19:17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, OBEY THE COMMANDMENTS.”

John 14:15,21-24,31 Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit “If you love me, you will obey what I command. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, “But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus replied, “If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me. “Come now; let us leave.

Romans 13:10-14 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLMENT OF THE LAW. And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because OUR SALVATION IS NEARER NOW THAN WHEN WE FIRST BELIEVED. The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

Matthew 28:19-20 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and TEACHING THEM TO OBEY EVERYTHING I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”


Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: FEAR GOD AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.
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Therefore we conclude a man is justified by faith without works

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe

He that believes on the Son is having everlasting life

Your working for drivel will not save anyone........
 
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