GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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The big problem is that they make the Sabbath a salvation issue: "we are saved by grace through faith, provided we keep the Sabbath", this is what they say.

If the Old Testament laws were binding on Christians certainly Paul would have written about it in his letters, because Gentiles had no clue how to keep them.




I know and as I said in the post you quoted I oppose that as strongly as anyone here.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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The big problem is that they make the Sabbath a salvation issue: "we are saved by grace through faith, provided we keep the Sabbath", this is what they say.

If the Old Testament laws were binding on Christians certainly Paul would have written about it in his letters, because Gentiles had no clue how to keep them.
Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

All Commandments found only in the Old Testament


21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Just two scriptures, there are a lot more, prove your statement as un-true.

What will these Gentiles learn from Moses Marcelo? Sunday worship? Christmas? Will they see the naked long haired pretty boy almost every church of today has standing in their building? Will they learn to create their own High days, their own images of God, their own Sabbaths?

Or will they learn what the Disciples learned when Jesus instructed them to listen to the Scribes read Moses? (Matt. 23:3)

The Sabbath is taught in the very first chapter of the very first Book of the Bible. How can you say the gentiles would know nothing about it?

Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Gosh Marcelo, how can you make such claims. You would say a murderer couldn't be "Saved" unless he stopped murdering. Why do you feel qualified to make a different judgment on the rest of God's Commandments?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

All Commandments found only in the Old Testament


21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

so if they were learning the Law of Moses in the synagogues every week why did they need to be told not to engage in idolatry or sexual immorality, or to eat blood?

did the Law prohibit sexual immorality or not? does it prohibit idolatry? eating blood?

the fact that these prohibitions are in the Law actually tells us that the Gentile believers weren't all going to the synagogues every week and learning to keep the Sinai Covenant. if they were, they would have already known these things.

if they want to learn the Law, there was no shortage of teachers of the Law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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how long can someone keep going to synagogue every week, hearing and studying the Law, and need to be told that sexual immorality, idolatry and eating blood are not good things?

how many weeks of learning the Law of Moses and the practices of Judaism can a gentile go through and remain ignorant that the Law forbids idolatry, sexual wickedness and eating blood?

why these things?

what did people do at the temples of the Greek, Roman, Babylonian and Assyrian gods?
what was 'worship' like there?
was there any idol-pollution there? fornication? blood-eating?

hmm.
why these three things?
is the need to command the Gentiles who have believed not to do these three specific things evidence that they have familiarity with Judaism or familiarity with, for example, Ishtar?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul — men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.


who are those who "without authorization disturbed and troubled the minds" of the gentile believers?
context here is obviously that they were giving the gentiles requirements -- therefore the apostles where clearing up the confusion these false teachers had started, by giving an authoritative, short list of requirements.

who had been giving the gentiles false requirements?

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."

verse 5 have anything to do with that, ya think?
or have some of you convinced yourself that there were people commanding the gentiles that they must worship on the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] day *or else* ;)




 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,767
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The apostles and elders, your brothers,
To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:

Greetings.

We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul — men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.


who are those who "without authorization disturbed and troubled the minds" of the gentile believers?
context here is obviously that they were giving the gentiles requirements -- therefore the apostles where clearing up the confusion these false teachers had started, by giving an authoritative, short list of requirements.

who had been giving the gentiles false requirements?

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses."

verse 5 have anything to do with that, ya think?
or have some of you convinced yourself that there were people commanding the gentiles that they must worship on the 8[SUP]th[/SUP] day *or else* ;)


oddly enough all of these requirements are things that they would have already known if they had been studying Torah.
oddly enough all of these requirements are things they would have been familiar with as practices in the temple worship of the prevailing common religions of the day.

common sense ought to inform us whether these gentile believers were interacting with Jews or pagans. how welcoming was a typical synagogue at the time to a believer in the Messiah? or even now, lol.

But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
(Acts 13:45)​


smh
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Nice cut an paste, but you forgot a few.

11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
which part of what you quoted is a imperative command?
there are three sentences here. two are questions and one is a declarative statement.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Psalms 74:4, “Your adversaries have roared In the midst of Your appointments; They have set up their own signs as signs.” [/FONT]
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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did God create circumcision?

What I mean is this: The Law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
(Galatians 3:17-18)

circumcision is a sign of the promise to Abraham - the Covenant that came 430 years before the Sinai Covenant ((re: Genesis 17:10-12)).

Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the Law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
(Galatians 3:23-25)​

if the gospel is the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Mosaic Covenant, and circumcision of the flesh is now "
nothing" ((re: 1 Corinthians 7:19)) then how can salvation depend on a sign of the covenant which definitely did not set aside the covenant that was established 430 years before? the covenant that scripture clearly says we were once held in custody by but are no longer under?

you have no idea if i keep sabbath or not, or how i do if i do, and you have no basis to judge me or anyone else over it - that basis for judgement is the Law, which no one who has believed the salvation of the Lord Christ is anymore condemned by.


"
have a nice day"
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Psalms 74:4, “Your adversaries have roared In the midst of Your appointments; They have set up their own signs as signs.”
By this everyone will know that you are my disciples:
if you love one another.
(John 13:35)
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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516
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=posthuman;3403116]
so if they were learning the Law of Moses in the synagogues every week why did they need to be told not to engage in idolatry or sexual immorality, or to eat blood?

did the Law prohibit sexual immorality or not? does it prohibit idolatry? eating blood?


So then when the scriptures say:

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

You preach that they weren't learning from God's Word, and your evidence of this is that they didn't understand everything God instructed them on the first Sabbath they observed.

Why did Jesus send His Disciples, that He had chosen and walked with for a long time, to the Scribes to learn from Moses? What was left for them to know, they had already attended one Sabbath.

the fact that these prohibitions are in the Law actually tells us that the Gentile believers weren't all going to the synagogues every week and learning to keep the Sinai Covenant. if they were, they would have already known these things.
Why does your church have weekly Services. Does that prove you have not learned from the Bible? One service and you are good to go, right?

Do you even read the posts you make?

if they want to learn the Law, there was no shortage of teachers of the Law.
This is perfect PH.

You have been a self proclaimed believer for how long, you have gone to how many services, read in the Bible for how long?

After all this time you are still ignorant of the Biblical fact that the Jews were not preaching God's Laws, but were preaching their own laws, their own Sabbaths, their own High Days, they had created their own images of God in the likeness of man.

You preach a lot of things that are just false PH.

Jesus triumphed over God on the cross in Col. 2.

The Gentiles didn't learn about God from the Law and Prophets on the Sabbath.

The Jews were preaching God's Laws and not their own.

Aren't you even a little bit concerned about this?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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By this everyone will know that you are my disciples:
if you love one another.
(John 13:35)
Who's version of love? human's version or YHWH's version?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 4:24, “Yah is Spirit, and those who worship Him need to worship in spirit and truth.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Timothy 4:2-3, "Preach the word Be instant; ready to take your positions in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother or your sister frankly, so you will not share in his or her guilt."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Proverbs 24:25-26, "But he who rebukes the wicked will be a delight, and a righteous blessing will be called upon him. A fitting; appropriate, answer is like a kiss on the lips."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Luke 17:3-4, “So be on your guard! If your brother trespasses against you, rebuke him! But if he repents, forgive him! And if he trespasses against you seven times in one day, and seven times in that day turns to you, and says; I repent; then you must forgive him.”[/FONT]
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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which part of what you quoted is a imperative command?
there are three sentences here. two are questions and one is a declarative statement.
Nice try, you are very cleaver and subtle in the way you deflect.

God's Sabbath is a sign between Him and His people. Jesus respected and followed this sign, as did His Disciples. We have already been warned of the "Many" who would come in His name and lie about God's Word. So it is no surprise that there are folks who actually try and make the case that we can reject one commandments over another, as it suits our tradition, and still "LIVE" as the serpent told Eve.

Or preach that Jesus triumphed over God in Col. 2., or that the Jews were teaching God's Laws and not their own.

Anyway, God's Sabbath still stands, and it is lawful to do good, not evil, on this day. Rebellion, disobedience, dishonor, disrespect, these are all evil according to God.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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After all this time you are still ignorant of the Biblical fact that the Jews were not preaching God's Laws, but were preaching their own laws, their own Sabbaths, their own High Days, they had created their own images of God in the likeness of man.
Yeah you keep telling yourself that.


Matthew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you -- but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice."


So why does Jesus contradict you?
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]


Yeah you keep telling yourself that.


Matthew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you -- but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice."


So why does Jesus contradict you?
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;[/FONT]
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113

What I mean is this: The Law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. For if the inheritance depends on the Law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.
(Galatians 3:17-18)

circumcision is a sign of the promise to Abraham - the Covenant that came 430 years before the Sinai Covenant ((re: Genesis 17:10-12)).
Before the coming of this faith, we were held in custody under the Law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. So the Law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
(Galatians 3:23-25)​

if the gospel is the promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, not the Mosaic Covenant, and circumcision of the flesh is now "
nothing" ((re: 1 Corinthians 7:19)) then how can salvation depend on a sign of the covenant which definitely did not set aside the covenant that was established 430 years before? the covenant that scripture clearly says we were once held in custody by but are no longer under?

you have no idea if i keep sabbath or not, or how i do if i do, and you have no basis to judge me or anyone else over it - that basis for judgement is the Law, which no one who has believed the salvation of the Lord Christ is anymore condemned by.
"
have a nice day"
I can only go by your posts. You preach that Jesus triumphed over God in Col. 2, this is a false teaching. You preach the Jews were teaching God's Laws, this is another false teaching.

So given these things that I read from your posts, it is no surprise that you don't understand that in Galatians it was the "Law of Works", the Levitical Priesthood with it's ceremonies and sacrificial "works and Deeds of the Law for remission of sins" that led them to Christ, which is what this "carnal commandment" (Heb. 7:15,16) was a shadow of to begin with.

But now the Shadow has come, they(Galatians) were no longer under that old "priesthood", but under a new one. No more scribes to hear the word of God from, He writes God's Laws in our hearts. Nor more "works of the Levitical Priesthood" animal sacrifices for cleansing, He cleanses us with His own Blood.

Abraham didn't have the old "Priesthood" as Levi wasn't even born yet.

Gal. 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

So whatever Law was ADDED 430 years after Abraham doesn't make God's promise to him void.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law,(The Law Abraham didn't have, the Levitical Priesthood that was ADDED to the Laws Abraham kept, "Til the Seed should come") it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Jesus warned of listening to folks who come in His name, but tell lies about God. We have all been deceived by these falsehoods as it is written. But now we have everything we need to expose and escape these false teachings that Jesus thought so important to warn about.

It's not about you or me, it's about what the Book actually says. All of it, not just a few scriptures that can be used to justify ancient religious traditions.

Jesus revealed to us all the lies and the man made Law that had been created and taught for centuries by the Mainstream Preachers of His time. This is how He loved me and His Disciples, by exposing this teaching to us. He was killed for doing so.

I am showing you the same Love in the hopes that you will at least look into the scriptures, consider for a moment that Jesus might be right, and "take Heed" to those who teach it is alright to reject God's Word, you shall surely not die.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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516
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Yeah you keep telling yourself that.


Matthew 23:1-3

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, "The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, so practice and observe whatever they tell you -- but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice."


So why does Jesus contradict you?
Jesus doesn't contradict me, you just refused to post the scripture that answered your own question.


4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Jesus doesn't contradict me, you just refused to post the scripture that answered your own question.


4 For they (Not God) bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:4, “For they (the pharisees not YHWH) bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How do they “bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." [/FONT]