Why do so many people think Paul was a false apostle?

[Zi]

The new testament names more then 12 Apostles.

Act 14:14 being one of the verses

Jesus commanded the 12 to go to all nations, and thats what they did.



Paul never met the living Jesus which is a requirement for Apostleship. Paul was trained by revelation, nothing wrong with that, but there many, many, many others trained by revelation as well.

 

[hardsell]

Jesus of Nazareth taught His disciples to keep the Law. Paul (the risen Jesus' spokesman) said we are not under the Law. Which one do you follow?

Jesus taught his disciples the law of Christ, which is to love God, love others and love yourself.

 

[Hizikyah]

Ok, remember, the real (earthly) Jesus said we must keep the Law of Moses. I myself stick with what the risen Jesus says: Salvation is by grace through faith.

Risen Jesus saus:

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”


[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Warning:

View attachment 177384

Scriptual Truth Zone, if you are stuck in tradition or not a servant of the Messiah this mesage may not be for you.

There is only One that we must hear and obey, all others if their teaching line up with the One we must hear and obey, those teachings are valid. Anyone who puts any others words equal to or higher than the Messiah, the One we must hear and obey is in disagreement with the Creator Himself:



John/Yahanan 5:46-47, "For had you believed Mosheh, you would have believed Me, for he wrote about Me*. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"

*Mosheh wrote:

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I (YHWH) will raise up for them a Prophet (Yahshua/Jesus) like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 - שָׁמַעshama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey


It is Scriptural fact, the Messiah’s words are higher than anyone else who has ever lived.


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


2 John/Yahanan 1:9, "Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of the Messiah, does not have Yah. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."


John 5:43, “I have come in My Father's Name, but you do not follow Me. Let another come in his own name; him you will follow.”


John/Yahanan 7:16-17, "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching, whether it comes from YHWH, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."


John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."


John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."


John/Yahanan 10:16, "And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. So there will be one flock, one Shepherd (4166 –poimén)."



Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

John 12:25-26, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit. He who loves his life shall lose it, and he who hates his life in this world shall preserve it for everlasting life." Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.”

Anyone that disageess with His words put themselves against Him.

Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”

There is no earthly Jesus and resurrection Jesus in relation to what He taught He sais the above words.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The new testament names more then 12 Apostles.

The New Testament has no internal contradictions. So please note carefully:

King James Bible (Mt 19:28)
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

King James Bible (Rev 21:14)
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And there is no question whatsoever that Paul is one of the twelve now.

 

[shrume]

The New Testament has no internal contradictions. So please note carefully:

King James Bible (Mt 19:28)
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

King James Bible (Rev 21:14)
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

And there is no question whatsoever that Paul is one of the twelve now.

My apologies, but it's amusing when people present their opinions as though they were absolute axioms.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

[/COLOR][/I][/COLOR]



There is only one Lord Jesus, but He taught two different messages: on earth He taught obedience to the Law of Moses, and after the cross He taught salvation by grace through faith.

no He didn't Marcelo and we had this conversation some time back

Jesus said to His disciples...you believe in God...believe also in Me

same Jesus...from the beginning to the end

Paul's gospel was the gospel of Jesus...not some 'other' gospel

At the beginning of Romans, Paul says he was commissioned to preach the gospel...not a different gospel


Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?

By Matt Slick
Some critics of Christianity try to set Paul against Jesus. They will often claim that what Paul taught is not what Jesus said and that present-day Christianity is derived not from Jesus, but from Paul's teaching. This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts. It is easy to take various scriptures out of context and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. Nevertheless, we can confidently expect that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing. Granted, Paul focused more on theological issues than Jesus did, but nothing Paul said is contrary to Christ.
Luke wrote both the Gospel of Luke and the book of Acts. In Acts 9 Luke records the events surrounding Paul's conversion. We see that Jesus himself called Paul and sent him to be an apostle. If Paul and Jesus are not in agreement, then why would Jesus call Paul to be his apostle? Jesus is God in flesh and would, therefore, know all things. Jesus would certainly have known what Paul would teach which, it seems, is one of the reasons Jesus called him.
In addition, we can quickly see by examining what Jesus said we find parallels in what Paul said. Following is a brief alphabetical list comparing the words of Christ with the words of Paul. We can clearly see that they were indeed in agreement and that the critics who would set Paul against Christ don't know what they're talking about.

1. Alive in Christ
   1. Jesus
      1. "For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes," (John 5:21).
   2. Paul
      1. "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive," (1 Cor. 15:22).
2. Anxiety
   1. Jesus
      1. "For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing?" (Matt. 6:25).
   2. Paul
      1. "Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God," (Phil. 4:6).
3. Atonement
   1. Jesus
      1. "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep," (John 10:11)
   2. Paul
      1. "and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma," (Eph. 5:2).
4. Deity of Jesus
   1. Jesus
      1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am," (John 8:58). Compare with Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM"; and He said, "Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."
   2. Paul
      1. "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," (Col. 2:9). See also, Phil. 2:5-8.
5. Forgiveness
   1. Jesus
      1. "For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you," (Matt. 6:14).
   2. Paul
      1. "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you," (Eph. 4:32).
6. Jesus is the only way
   1. Jesus
      1. "Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me," (John 14:6).
   2. Paul
      1. "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," (1 Tim. 2:5).
7. Justification by faith
   1. Jesus
      1. "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life," (John 5:24). See also John 3:16-18; Luke 18:9-13.
   2. Paul
      1. "Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ," (Rom. 5:1).
8. Law, the
   1. Jesus
      1. "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill," (Matt. 5:17).
   2. Paul
      1. "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law," (Rom. 3:31).
      2. "What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise," (Gal. 3:17).
9. Law, living the
   1. Jesus
      1. "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself," (Matt. 19:18-19).
   2. Paul
      1. "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law," (Rom. 13:8-10)
10. Predestination
    1. Jesus
       1. "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given," (Matt. 19:11).
       2. "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).
       3. "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," (John 6:44).
       4. "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," (John 6:65).
    2. Paul
       1. "He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will... 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will," (Eph. 1:5,11).
11. Resurrection
    1. Jesus
       1. "The Son of Man is going to be delivered into the hands of men; 23 and they will kill Him, and He will be raised on the third day," (Matt. 17:22-23).
    2. Paul
       1. "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," (1 Cor. 15:3-4).
12. Rewards and Punishment
    1. Jesus
       1. "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will then recompense every man according to his deeds," (Matt. 16:27).
    2. Paul
       1. "who will render to every man according to his deeds," (Rom. 2:6).
13. Sinfulness of man
    1. Jesus
       1. "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20 "These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man," (Matt. 15:19-20).
    2. Paul
       1. "There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; 12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless; There is none who does good, There is not even one," (Rom. 3:11-12).
14. Tradition
    1. Jesus
       1. "And why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matt. 15:3).
    2. Paul
       1. "See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ," (Col. 2:8).
15. Works Righteousness denied
    1. Jesus
       1. "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness," (Matt. 7:22-23).
    2. Paul
       1. "Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "The righteous man shall live by faith," (Gal. 3:11).

As you can see, this brief list demonstrates that Jesus and Paul both taught the same thing



CARM

 

[shrume]

Should we add one?

16) Salvation

1) Jesus

Luke 18:
18) And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
...
20) Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.


2) Paul

Rom 10:
9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Eph 1:
13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14) Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

An administration (dispensation) of the gospel was committed to Paul (1 Cor 9:17; Eph 3:2). It was given to him by revelation from Jesus Christ (Eph 3:3).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matt 15:24). He was a minister to the circumcision (Rom 15:8). Jesus taught people to keep the law in order to be saved.

Deut 6:25) And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

After Jesus' ascension and the day of Pentecost, God's administration of grace was revealed to Paul, and that is what he taught. We are not saved by keeping the law (which no man can do), but by faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 3:20ff).

 

[dcontroversal]

Paul only ever met Jesus briefly.

Dude you consistently prove that you do not study or know the word of God.....PAUL was taught by direct revelation from Jesus and re-educated in the wilderness for over two years....geesh

 

[dcontroversal]

Not to derail, but where do you get this idea?

Many assume that the scripture which states we will be like the angels in heaven with no marriage = sexless.....I am not one of the many.......!

 

[shrume]

Many assume that the scripture which states we will be like the angels in heaven with no marriage = sexless.....I am not one of the many.......!

I believe we'll still be sexed (male & female), but no marriage, which kinda implies by biblical definition there will be no sex, which from my current perspective is a bit of a bummer...

I hope my understanding is wrong. But if it's not, everything will still be awesome!

(...this is how threads get sidetracked... lol )

 

[Marcelo]

no He didn't Marcelo and we had this conversation some time back

Jesus said to His disciples...you believe in God...believe also in Me

same Jesus...from the beginning to the end

Paul's gospel was the gospel of Jesus...not some 'other' gospel

At the beginning of Romans, Paul says he was commissioned to preach the gospel...not a different gospel


Did Jesus and Paul teach the same thing?

By Matt Slick
Some critics of Christianity try to set Paul against Jesus. They will often claim that what Paul taught is not what Jesus said and that present-day Christianity is derived not from Jesus, but from Paul's teaching. This is an erroneous claim that does not fit the facts. It is easy to take various scriptures out of context and try and set one person against another -- as many critics of Christianity have done. Nevertheless, we can confidently expect that Jesus and Paul taught the same thing.

There is only one Gospel (Good news, news of victory), but the earthly Jesus preached the first part of it and Paul (as the risen Jesus' spokesman) preached the second.

The first part of the Good News was basically the reinterpretation of the Law of Moses, the parables, the prediction of the Lord's death, end times prophecies, etc, and the second part (through Paul) was the Gospel of grace.

My church teaches the same as Matt Slick -- this is nothing new to me. What most churches -- my own included -- fail to realize is that the earthly Jesus didn't preach salvation by grace -- this ministry was given to Paul.

 

[Marcelo]

HIZIKYAH posted:

[FONT=&quot]Mat 24:35, “Heaven and earth may pass away, but My teachings will not pass away.”[/FONT]

You're right. Jesus' teachings will never pass away; neither those given while He was on earth, nor those given after the cross, through the apostle Paul.

 

[notuptome]

There is only one Gospel (Good news, news of victory), but the earthly Jesus preached the first part of it and Paul (as the risen Jesus' spokesman) preached the second.

The first part of the Good News was basically the reinterpretation of the Law of Moses, the parables, the prediction of the Lord's death, end times prophecies, etc, and the second part (through Paul) was the Gospel of grace.

My church teaches the same as Matt Slick -- this is nothing new to me. What most churches -- my own included -- fail to realize is that the earthly Jesus didn't preach salvation by grace -- this ministry was given to Paul.

Salvation by grace is taught throughout the entire bible. To posit that the Incarnate Jesus did not preach grace is beyond idiotic.

Paul did not invent the gospel of grace.

Matt Slick is a five pointer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[jaybird88]

You're right. Jesus' teachings will never pass away; neither those given while He was on earth, nor those given after the cross, through the apostle Paul.

do you understand the problems you run into using this philosophy? anyone can claim to be taught by Jesus through revelation. the only way we have to test such teachings is testing them against what Jesus taught. if your thinking Paul taught something different than Jesus IMO your not understanding Paul correctly.

 

[jaybird88]

Gal 1:11-24, please pay attention to the parts in bold.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it; [SUP]14 [/SUP]and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, was pleased [SUP]16[/SUP]to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood, [SUP]17 [/SUP]nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus.

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then three years later I went up to Jerusalem to become acquainted with Cephas, and stayed with him fifteen days. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. [SUP]20 [/SUP](Now in what I am writing to you, I assure you before God that I am not lying.) [SUP]21 [/SUP]Then I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia. [SUP]22 [/SUP]I was still unknown by sight to the churches of Judea which were in Christ; [SUP]23 [/SUP]but only, they kept hearing, “He who once persecuted us is now preaching the faith which he once tried to destroy.” [SUP]24 [/SUP]And they were glorifying God because of me.

We can take it to the bank that while Paul was in Arabia for 3 years he was taught directly by Jesus himself.

i never said Paul was not taught by revelation, i said Paul and many others have been taught through revelation, people are being taught by it today.
Paul was not taught by the living Jesus as the 12 were taught.

 

[Marcelo]

Salvation by grace is taught throughout the entire bible. To posit that the Incarnate Jesus did not preach grace is beyond idiotic.

Paul did not invent the gospel of grace.

Matt Slick is a five pointer.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Is it proper for a Christian to call another human being IDIOT? Is it a least necessary? Could you show me I am wrong in a civilized way, without resorting to insult?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Paul was not taught by the living Jesus as the 12 were taught.

There is no difference between the living Jesus and the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul was personally taught by the latter. Why are people confused about basics?

 

[Magenta]

Paul was not taught by the living Jesus as the 12 were taught.

The twelve were largely clueless after all their years of walking and talking with the pre-crucified Christ. You may recall that one of them was not even a believer...

 

[BillG]

Many assume that the scripture which states we will be like the angels in heaven with no marriage = sexless.....I am not one of the many.......!

I'm not sure on this one.
But just in case I say to my wife????