Not By Works

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R

Ralph-

Guest
Ralph...uses the pronoun "they" fifteen times and condemns untold thousands of Christians as unsaved. And then has the nerve to accuse the folks on this thread of "beating up" anyone who disagrees... Again you take the judgment seat of Christ and are playing the roll (sic) of the Holy Spirit, not a Good thing to do.
It is incumbent upon the untold thousands of Christians to show they really have been saved and will be saved when Jesus returns by heeding the scriptures that warn us that lawless perverts, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, drunks, gossips, hateful, idolatrous, greedy, impure people will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Instead these untold thousands of Christians have decided those warnings don't apply to them and that them acting like that doesn't show either way if they really have been born again and that they will be saved when Jesus comes back regardless.
 
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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Wow, you must live in the ghetto.

to last post by ralph
Hi Stonesoffire and Merry Christmas, I think you are referring to Ralph's condemnation of everyone but herself. Her theology is upside down she looks at the bible through the wrong end of a telescope and cannot see the forest though the trees, the saved are not really saved.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
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So your talking about legalism. That a person can be saved, Have Gods spirit. Have works, and because they did not maintain works. They have lost salvation.

So you can now STOP telling us you do not teach justification by works.

A person who is saved is saved, Jesus said they will never be lost. Will never be let go of. Will be raised not he last day, HAS eternal life. And will never die.

You think this is not true. Thats on you my friend.
You keep trying to twist what was stated. This makes me wonder about your intentions.

What does the Bible state.
1. To be saved a person has to accept Jesus as his savior.
2. People accepting Christ will try to do good works.
3. God sees our good works as dirty rags since he sees our impure hearts contaminating them.

Thus proving any persons attempting to go to heaven based on works will fail. Having looked at myself and seen evidence of this I give thanks that Jesus paid the penalty for my sins since I have so many. Self examination in light of the law is devastating. My ego gets in the way.
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
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It is incumbent upon the untold thousands of Christians to show they really have been saved and will be saved when Jesus returns by heeding the scriptures that warn us that lawless perverts, adulterers, fornicators, thieves, drunks, gossips, hateful, idolatrous, greedy, impure people will NOT inherit the kingdom of God. Instead these untold thousands of Christians have decided those warnings don't apply to them and that them acting like that doesn't show either way if they really have been born again and that they will be saved when Jesus comes back regardless.
Matthew 7 quotes Jesus saying this.

Matthew 7 NIV

[h=3]True and False Disciples[/h][FONT=&quot]21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’[/FONT]
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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You keep trying to twist what was stated. This makes me wonder about your intentions.

What does the Bible state.
1. To be saved a person has to accept Jesus as his savior.
2. People accepting Christ will try to do good works.
3. God sees our good works as dirty rags since he sees our impure hearts contaminating them.

Thus proving any persons attempting to go to heaven based on works will fail. Having looked at myself and seen evidence of this I give thanks that Jesus paid the penalty for my sins since I have so many. Self examination in light of the law is devastating. My ego gets in the way.
Psalm 119:5-12, “Oh, that my ways were established To guard Your laws! Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commands. I thank You with uprightness of heart, When I learn the right-rulings of Your righteousness. I guard Your laws; Oh, do not leave me entirely! How would a young man cleanse his path? To guard it according to Your word. I have sought You with all my heart; Let me not stray from Your commands! I have treasured up Your word in my heart, That I might not sin against You. Blessed are You, O יהוה! Teach me Your laws.”

Jeremiah 9:23-26, “Thus said יהוה, “Let not the wise boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty boast in his might, nor let the rich boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am יהוה, doing loving-commitment, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” declares יהוה, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall punish all circumcised with the uncircumcised; Mitsrayim, and Yehuḏah, and Eḏom, and the children of Ammon, and Mo’aḇ, and all those trimmed on the edges, who dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Yisra’ĕl are uncircumcised in heart!”

Psalm 119:103-105, “How sweet to my taste has Your word been, More than honey to my mouth! From Your orders I get understanding; Therefore I have hated every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and the Belief of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”[/FONT]

 
Dec 12, 2013
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Did not the Pharisees have deeds?
From now on when a worker for throws out James out of context to try and prove a works based false gospel I am going to say look the word context up......the bible does not contradict and Paul said clearly.....We conclude a man is justified by faith without works and the CONTEXT OF JAMES IS MEN BEING ABLE TO SEE THE FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES A MAN BEFORE God without works....I am sick of these people blindly yanking James out of context to prove a false point...
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
From now on when a worker for throws out James out of context to try and prove a works based false gospel I am going to say look the word context up......the bible does not contradict and Paul said clearly.....We conclude a man is justified by faith without works and the CONTEXT OF JAMES IS MEN BEING ABLE TO SEE THE FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES A MAN BEFORE God without works....I am sick of these people blindly yanking James out of context to prove a false point...
I had to log in and post this;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]James 2:14-26, “14 My brothers, what use is it for anyone to say he has belief but does not have works? This belief is unable to save him. 15, "And if a brother or sister is naked and in need of daily food, 16, "but one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” but you do not give them the bodily needs, what use is it? 17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead. 18, "But someone might say, “You have belief, and I have works.” Show me your belief without your works, and I shall show you my belief by my works. 19, "You believe that Yah is one. You do well. The demons also believe – and shudder! 20, "But do you wish to know, O empty man, that the belief without the works is dead? 21, "Was not Aḇraham our father declared right by works when he offered Yitsḥaq his son on the slaughter-place? 22, "Do you see that the belief was working with his works, and by the works the belief was perfected? 23, "And the Scripture was filled which says, “Aḇraham believed Yah, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness.” And He called him, “he who loves Yah. 24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone. 25, "In the same way, was not Raḥaḇ the whore also declared right by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]17, "So also belief, if it does not have works, is in itself dead.

[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]24, "You see, then, that a man is declared right by works, and not by belief alone.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif] 26, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so also the belief is dead without the works.”[/FONT]
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
400
83
Psalm 119:5-12, “Oh, that my ways were established To guard Your laws! Then I would not be ashamed, When I look into all Your commands. I thank You with uprightness of heart, When I learn the right-rulings of Your righteousness. I guard Your laws; Oh, do not leave me entirely! How would a young man cleanse his path? To guard it according to Your word. I have sought You with all my heart; Let me not stray from Your commands! I have treasured up Your word in my heart, That I might not sin against You. Blessed are You, O יהוה! Teach me Your laws.”

Jeremiah 9:23-26, “Thus said יהוה, “Let not the wise boast in his wisdom, let not the mighty boast in his might, nor let the rich boast in his riches, but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am יהוה, doing loving-commitment, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight,” declares יהוה, “See, the days are coming,” declares יהוה, “when I shall punish all circumcised with the uncircumcised; Mitsrayim, and Yehuḏah, and Eḏom, and the children of Ammon, and Mo’aḇ, and all those trimmed on the edges, who dwell in the wilderness. For all the nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Yisra’ĕl are uncircumcised in heart!”

Psalm 119:103-105, “How sweet to my taste has Your word been, More than honey to my mouth! From Your orders I get understanding; Therefore I have hated every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.”

Revelation 14:12-13, “Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the Commands of יהוה and the Belief of יהושע. And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, Write, Blessed are the dead who die in the Master from now on. Yes, says the Spirit, in order that they rest from their labors, and their works follow with them.”
Are you deliberately being obtuse or don't you believe that sin is breaking the law and thus with sin in a person's life that means condemnation. To remove the penalty of the condemnation accepting Jesus as savior is the only way to remove It.

Your methology of your post makes it very difficult to understand your point. Verses with no explanation requires comments or it remains hidden. Or are you just trying to keep people guessing????
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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Are you deliberately being obtuse or don't you believe that sin is breaking the law and thus with sin in a person's life that means condemnation. To remove the penalty of the condemnation accepting Jesus as savior is the only way to remove It.

Your methology of your post makes it very difficult to understand your point. Verses with no explanation requires comments or it remains hidden. Or are you just trying to keep people guessing????
Why would I need to explain the verses? People here can read and what in that post even hints at what you are claiming of me concerning sin an faith in the Messiah? The Revelatiuon verse mentions faith in the Messiah as a must for the saints/set apart ones of Yah...
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
...the bible does not contradict and Paul said clearly.....We conclude a man is justified by faith without works and the CONTEXT OF JAMES IS MEN BEING ABLE TO SEE THE FAITH THAT JUSTIFIES A MAN BEFORE God without works....I am sick of these people blindly yanking James out of context to prove a false point...
Okay, now IN CONTEXT, what does James say about the faith that can not be seen by men? "Can that faith save him?"-vs.14. The usefulness of the faith he is speaking about is, IN CONTEXT, whether or not it can save.

Can it? What do you say? What does James say? Who should we listen to?
 
R

Ralph-

Guest
Matthew 7 quotes Jesus saying this.

Matthew 7 NIV

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
"BUT ONLY THE ONE WHO DOES THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN" vs.21

Only the person who does the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven. Not because that's how you work to earn salvation but because, as James says, only the faith that can be seen by men and God (obedient faith) saves. If you do not have a faith that can be seen in the doing of God's will then you have a faith that can not save.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
So, I take it that once a person has been "saved," that person SURRENDERS their ability to use their "FREE WILL" anymore? Is that what happened to the angel Lucifer, when he DECIDED to rebel against God ... and got cast down from heaven (TO WHERE, EXACTLY, and WHEN, with respect to Adam and Eve)? What about the 1/3 of all the angels that were cast out with Lucifer (turned satan)? I'm guessing none of those "rebelling angels" had any free will either!
Lol.. I have free will. I of my own free will chose to recieve christ because I found him to be trustworthy. He has never given me a reason to doubt him as far as my salvation. And he never will.

Those who leave I can only imagine never trusted him to begin with (at least this is what scripture says (see first John). The fact you have to even mention this, I must wonder if you have ever met him, if you did, I doubt you would ever insist such a thing was possible.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
They mocked Jesus in similar fashion. But Paul does warn us that we will be persecuted. That's how you get abused.....just say the truth to people who are not living it.
Make sure your the one actually getting abused. And not you abusing other people.. This line of reasoning is pretty boastful.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
We know he's talking about works of service, not works of moral obedience because just 3 chapters later he says those who have works of fornication and adultery and drunkenness and idolatry and covetousness will not inherit the kingdom. But you and others are claiming that chapter 3 is saying these same works gets burned up while you get saved. That contradiction shows us that the works in chapter 3 can't be the works of the lost person in chapter 6.
And such were some of you,. But you were washed, But you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of Christ.

It did not say they stopped. It said they were forgiven and the sins wer4e washed away.

Unless your sinless. Every time you spout this nonsense, you condemn yourself. Because you are just as guilty as they were, in fact, as we ALL ARE.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yeah, that's nice. Now prove me wrong.
You have been proven wrong by a few people. If you cannot see it, don;t blame us.

By the way, Funny how you do as you always do. You never answered. Do you believe salvation must be maintained, or it will be lost. Or is it eternal?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ah, yes, persecution complex. Very predictable. The venom is flowing.

I'm not judging anyone. The Bible is your judge. It says you can NOT inherit the kingdom if you 'live like this'. You don't agree with the Bible. But I'm the bad guy here for agreeing with it. You're the ones contradicting the Bible and then hating and beating up on those who oppose your unbiblical beliefs.
WHO IS SAYING THEY WILL GET TO HEAVEN OR THEY WERE EVEN SAVED, IF THEY LIVE IN THOSE SINS?

It says that was their old life. However, the part you refuse to acknowledge, is it does not say they no longer fail in these areas. It says it does not rule their lives anymore.

You must have no sin, you LOVE to throw stones!

 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Easy.
They are told over and over and over again that what they do does not matter because salvation is not by works. But they are not told that to abuse grace is to ultimately show they do not have God's grace in salvation and will be rejected by Jesus when he comes back. They think grace makes it so they can be lawless too, like the crowd in Matthew 7:23, but they will be saved because they're not trying to earn their way to heaven like the people are in that passage. They ignore vs. 21 as if it isn't even there.
No. The above did not answer my question in context. You are just reiterating your point. To which I responded show anyone on here who says that once s person who is saved they can do what they want. Then I asked.


Originally Posted by BillG

On the other hand I know of hundreds of Christians who also abuse grace.
Why would that be? Your thoughts on that.




The other way that believers abuse grace is by rejecting it.
They feel they have to earn it. They are told they have to earn it. The harder toy work the more God will love you.
There is nothing wrong with works. It's why we do those works?

So grace can be abused on both sides of the coin and not just one.