You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

[louis]

Did you notice the major flaw in your interpretation?

"...took them all away..." means "swept them all away" to die in the flood.

That is not the same them as harpagesometha --- CAUGHT UP TOGETHER -- to meet th Lord in the air, and here is where the illustration of the two in the field and the two women comes in. The ones who are taken are raptured, while the ones left behind are not.

You are totally correct that those taken away in Matthew 24:39 do not represent those who are caught up to the Lord who meet Him in the air.
There are only three places in the Bible where there appear individuals who are "caught up" to God and heaven.
In 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 we see an individual who after being caught up to heaven/paradise, later relates his experience to Paul on earth, thereby indicating his being caught up being a spiritual experience.
In Revelation 12:5 we see the travailing woman bringing forth a man child who is caught up to God in heaven, who the devil after being cast to the earth goes off to make war with the remnat who are still physically alive (Revelation 12:17), thereby indicating the man child who is caught up to God in heaven being a spiritual rising.
I therefore believe the account of those who are caught up in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the same man child in Revelation 12 who is caught up to God; whether out of the body (deceased in 1 Thessalonians 4:16) who shall be caught up spiritually first, or whether the remnant alive in their physical bodies on the earth at the time who will follow being spiritually caught up to God.

2 Corinthians 12:2 [FONT=&quot]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the [/FONT]body[FONT=&quot], I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[/FONT]
1 Thessalonians 4:17 [FONT=&quot]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

About 40 years after Jesus said this, (and still in the lifetime of some of the apostles), some were taken and some were left behind. Rome sent out an edict that said if you were a Christian they would kill you. Two in the field. One a Christian and one not. The Christian was taken away to be killed. Two grinding. One a Christian and one not. The Christian was taken to be killed. As in the days of Noah, people are still eating, drinking and being married. Ultimately the ones taken went home to the Lord after being killed. The ones left behind have a sentence of a different kind over them.

If what you claim were true then the end of the age would have come at that time.
What about all the Christians that have been martyred more than 40 years after Jesus said this? How does the end of the age having come and gone apply?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Did you notice the major flaw in your interpretation?

"...took them all away..." means "swept them all away" to die in the flood.

That is not the same thing as harpagesometha --- CAUGHT UP TOGETHER -- to meet th Lord in the air, and here is where the illustration of the two in the field and the two women comes in. The ones who are taken are raptured, while the ones left behind are not.

Hello Nehemiah6,

The "one taken" is being compared to those "taken" in the flood. Therefore, the comparison is wicked to wicked. The "one taken" is in no way representing the catching away of the church.

As I said in an earlier post, in Luke's version when Jesus says "one will be taken, the other left" the disciples say to him "where, Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken, in which the Lord responds, "wherever there is a dead body, there will the vultures gather." What kind of response would that be if the "one taken" was referring to the church? Regarding those taken, Jesus is pointing us to the event in Rev.19:17 where that angel calls all of the birds/vultures to gather themselves to the great supper of God, where they will eat the flesh of all of those who will have been killed by the double-edged sword, including the "one taken" group, who represent the tares who the angels will gather first as described in the parable of the wheat and weeds in Matt.13.

 

[beastslayer1970]

“First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’” Matthew 13:30

This has always bothered me. It don't match our thinking about the rapture.

Matt 13:36-43

Check out the explanation of the parable of the tares and especially what I put in bold.


[SUP]36 [/SUP]Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.” [SUP]37 [/SUP]And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, [SUP]38 [/SUP]and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one; [SUP]39 [/SUP]and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. [SUP]40 [/SUP]So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. [SUP]41 [/SUP]The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, [SUP]42 [/SUP]and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[SUP]43 [/SUP]Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Vs 39- the reapers are the angels. SO much for a catching away or rapture.


Vs 41- The only ones getting taken are in fact stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness

Vs 43-The righteous shine forth they do not leave.

 

[louis]

IMO this passage does not speak of the rapture. As the wicked in the time of Noah were taken by the flood; even so will the wicked at the last judgement be taken to destruction: is the message here.

You are correct in that those who are taken away in Matthew 24:39 does not speak of the rapture.

 

[louis]

Hi Louis,

The gathering above takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. This is not the gathering of the church! As I said before, the above gathering takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore the church cannot be gathered there, because it would put us through the entire wrath of God.


1 Thes.4:13-17 is a different event from Matt.24:31. You continue to ignore the same issue in that, because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, we then cannot go through the time of God's wrath, because it has already been satisfied by Christ. Not to mention that scripture states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). And the Lord said that he would keep believers out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10).


The church must be gathered before God's wrath begins and Matt.24:31 takes place after God's wrath.

Hello Awhatukee,
I've already concurred with you that the Lord's wrath will not be directed towards the faithful, and that the Lord will gather His people away from the faithless. And I never claimed that those whom the Lord gathers in Matthew 24:31 is the same event as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in which the Lords people are caught up to Christ spiritually.
The gathering away from the faithless I see as the woman who is gathered to the wilderness who will be fed with Gods Word for 42 months that will result in her bringing forth and being caught up to God spiritually.

What I also disagree with you about is your claim that God's wrath against the faithless precedes His gathering of the faithful.
The 7 vials of Gods wrath in Revelation 16 is directed towards the worshipers of the beast following the 3.5 years in which the whole faithless world will be in love with the beasts system. During the 3.5 years of the beasts system, in which the woman travails in the wilderness, the faithful will be subjected to very hard times. Gods wrath follows this travailing/tribulaiton of the woman.

[/B]As I pointed out earlier, the above is not referring to the rapture. But those who will be gathered will be those who make it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom, which is who the angels will be gathering. They will be those who are still in their mortal bodies and who, along with the woman/Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

You are confusing the event of the gathering of the church with the Lord's return to end the age, when these are two different events. As I also mentioned, we the church, are those who will be returning with the Lord to the earth to end the age as demonstrated in Rev.19:6-8, 14. We are those who will be riding those white horses following Christ out of heaven.

Please, before responding, go look at Rev.19:6-8 where the bride is receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and then look at Rev.19:14 and take notice that it is the bride/church riding on the white horses wearing that same fine linen that she will have previously received in Rev.19:6-8.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

I believe the marriage in Revelation 19 to be the same as the man child in Revelation 12 who is spiritually caught up to God in heaven, which is the same as those being caught up to Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

 

[louis]

Quite the stretch to say the current world systems, could very well be tomorrow's world systems, beyond any people living today.

I on the other hand already see the chinks in the devils armor in all the chaos ensuing and growing throughout the world. It won't be long before he needs to make his last stand through the beasts system.

 

[Inquistor]

Everybody realizes that Matthew 24 is about the fall of Jerusalem, and NOT the end of the world, right? Context context. Matthew 23 into Matthew 24 is the same conversation with the apostles. Note Mt 23:36 "Truly I way to you all these things shall come upon this generation." Also, if it was talking about the end of the world, why on earth would they be told "let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house..."

Verse 24:14 tells us "And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come"

Paul tells us in Col 1:23 ""..if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul was made a minister." At the time of the writing, the inhabited world under heaven had heard. 8 years later the temple fell. In their generation--70 a.d.

That is true ONLY IF JERUSALEM throughout the WHOLE EARTH!


Luke 21:35 For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth.

 

[IamWhoIam]

I on the other hand already see the chinks in the devils armor in all the chaos ensuing and growing throughout the world. It won't be long before he needs to make his last stand through the beasts system.

looking back into history, people thought the end was near quite a few times, some of these things being the rise of the ottoman empire that nearly wiped out Christianity, the Black Death of the 14th century killed roughly 100 million people, WW1, and WW2.

the won't be long statement can be quite a long time.

 

[louis]

looking back into history, people thought the end was near quite a few times, some of these things being the rise of the ottoman empire that nearly wiped out Christianity, the Black Death of the 14th century killed roughly 100 million people, WW1, and WW2.

the won't be long statement can be quite a long time.

I am aware of how people in the past believed the end was near, but those beliefs were not founded on scriptures.
If you look at Revelation chapter 8 you will see a lot of environmental chaos ensuing, which in Revelation 9:20-21 is attributed to the love man has for the works of his hands.
The ever increasing fire seasons throughout much of the world, the ever increasing algae plumes in the oceans causing marine life death, the ever increasing fracking pollution in the earths fresh water reservoirs (also causing deaths in animals and people), and the ever increasing air pollution that blocks out the sky throughout many industrial cities of the world (Revelation 8).

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[IamWhoIam]

I am aware of how people in the past believed the end was near, but those beliefs were not founded on scriptures.
If you look at Revelation chapter 8 you will see a lot of environmental chaos ensuing, which in Revelation 9:20-21 is attributed to the love man has for the works of his hands.
The ever increasing fire seasons throughout much of the world, the ever increasing algae plumes in the oceans causing marine life death, the ever increasing fracking pollution in the earths fresh water reservoirs (also causing deaths in animals and people), and the ever increasing air pollution that blocks out the sky throughout many industrial cities of the world (Revelation 8).

Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The ever increasing fire season, algae plume air pollution etc. I don't recall being mentioned in scripture. do you have verses to support that theory of the things you mentioned as signs of the end time?

 

[IamWhoIam]

Revelation 8 speaks of the third of all things being lost, and at the sound of trumpets being blown one at a time.

the gradual decline of what is happening now is not the same reference as when the trumpets are sounded, when each trumpet is sounded then the third is destroyed per each one, not a gradual decline in our air quality or algae plumes and increase in the fire season etc.

 

[louis]

The ever increasing fire season, algae plume air pollution etc. I don't recall being mentioned in scripture. do you have verses to support that theory of the things you mentioned as signs of the end time?

As the environmental causes could not be described as to what they actually represented two thousand years ago when written, It then all appears in metaphor in Revelation chapter 8.

Revelation 8:7 [FONT=&quot]The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.[/FONT]

8 [FONT=&quot]And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

[/FONT]10 [FONT=&quot]And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

[/FONT]12 [FONT=&quot]And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.[/FONT]

 

[IamWhoIam]

As the environmental causes could not be described as to what they actually represented two thousand years ago when written, It then all appears in metaphor in Revelation chapter 8.

Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Correct and folks can't say today it's the environmental changes is the true sign, people look at those things and assume it's a reference.

its no metaphor a third of these things mentioned in scripture will vanish when each trumpet is sounded.

 

[louis]

Correct and folks can't say today it's the environmental changes is the true sign, people look at those things and assume it's a reference.

its no metaphor a third of these things mentioned in scripture will vanish when each trumpet is sounded.

The destruction of a third of the earth in each category will have be achieved before the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1.
Angels are illuminators providing us illumination.
Their sounding is their providing us warning about these events' consequences as we see today.

 

[notuptome]

What is the point of remaining on the earth during the great terrible tribulation? Why would you not want to be in the presence of God during that time?

Do you believe that Gods people are to be spared from Gods wrath? As scripture says not appointed to wrath.

One of the more idiotic premises I have seen here but hey enjoy yourself. I'm going to be sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to Him read Gods word to me with the rest of the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[louis]

What is the point of remaining on the earth during the great terrible tribulation? Why would you not want to be in the presence of God during that time?

Do you believe that Gods people are to be spared from Gods wrath? As scripture says not appointed to wrath.

One of the more idiotic premises I have seen here but hey enjoy yourself. I'm going to be sitting at the feet of Jesus listening to Him read Gods word to me with the rest of the saints.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The tribulation of the faithful pales by comparrison to God's wrath on the faithless.
The Lords wrath on the faithless is due to their love for the works from their hands which cause all these calamities.

 

[Willie-T]

Most of you seem to have all the answers I don't have. So, which of you can tell me how all those "thirds" is going to work/? Is every third person going to drop dead? Or will it be a certain third of the earth? How about the rivers going bad? Will the bad stuff skip every two rivers, or will it be that every single river in a particular section goes bad? None of the others affected?

And, more importantly, how selective are these stars going to be when they hit the earth? Are we to just hope the have good aim?

Inquisitive minds want to know.

 

[notuptome]

The tribulation of the faithful pales by comparrison to God's wrath on the faithless.
The Lords wrath on the faithless is due to their love for the works from their hands which cause all these calamities.

Ok you are just a little goofy. Those who are saved are going to be caught up with the Lord before the great tribulation. The saints of God do not have a choice. If they are alive they go up and if they are dead they still go up.

The lost perish.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[IamWhoIam]

The destruction of a third of the earth in each category will have be achieved before the opening of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:1.
Angels are illuminators providing us illumination.
Their sounding is their providing us warning about these events' consequences as we see today.

well I can only assume you have heard the trumpet sound already?