You May Not Want to be Taken/Raptured

[louis]

Matt.224 is not the end of the world, but the end of the age. The Lord's mention of the abomination being set up in verse 15 marks the middle of Daniel's last seven years. Matt.24:29-31 represents the end of that last 3 1/2 years with the Lord returning to end the age and establish his millennial kingdom.

The end of this present world does not take place until after the end of Christ thousand year reign as described at the beginning of the great throne judgment and John's description of the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem in Revelation 21 & 22.

Exactly, Matthew 24 is not about the end of the world, but about the end of the age. There is still a millennium reign on earth following the end of the current age.
This current age under Satan is also referred to as the curse in Isaiah 24:6 which devours the earth; and in Zechariah 5:3 which goes over the face of the whole earth.

Isaiah 24:6 [FONT=&quot]Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.
[/FONT]
Zechariah 5:3 [FONT=&quot]Then said he unto me, This is the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off as on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off as on that side according to it.[/FONT]

 

[louis]

If by the "second time" you mean when he returns to the earth to end the age (Matt.24:29-31, Rev.19:11-21) the on-going problem with the church being gathered here is that it would take the living church through the entire wrath of God, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer.

In understanding the chronology of end-time events, it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event vs. the Lord's return to end the age.

I concur that we are not to incur the Lords wrath. That is the reason why there is to be a seperation, with those who are the Lord's being gathered into His barn.
Is the Lords barn away from the earth, or on earth?

 

[garee]

The end of the world is the end of the age (last days) It includes both judgement and the second resurrection as to the receiving of all saints new bodies will happen simultaneously, in the twinkling of the eye on the last day with judgment for the lost. .

The former thing of this world will not be remembered or ever come to mind. There will not be some saints walking around with a memory of things past and other who still have their memories.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

Resurrection on the last day and on the same last day judgment. Christians as new creatures will not come into judgement.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The lasts days did not begin in 70AD. This generation speaks of the generation of Christ the believers. The time of reformation as the beginning of last day begun when Christ said it was finished. The veil was rent ,the wall that separated the old and New Testament fell.

No literal thousand years. We walk by faith the unseen. The mysteries as to the poetic language God chose to speak to us are hid in parables, without parables he spoke not.

 

[tanakh]

Very good Ahwatukee,
I agree with much of what you have written.

I have mentioned this in the past but there are quite a few who seem be blind to plain scripture including leading Evangelists who should know better. I believe its another example of a massive campaign of deception thats infiltrated the Church and has been active for the past few hundred years

 

[CS1]

I think many have missed where Jesus is answering three questions in Matt 24. when shall these things be? 2. What shall be the signs of your Coming?3. And the end of the WorldJesus answer them and tell of the temple .

 

[Ahwatukee]

The end of the world is the end of the age (last days) It includes both judgement and the second resurrection as to the receiving of all saints new bodies will happen simultaneously, in the twinkling of the eye on the last day with judgment for the lost.

No garee! The end of the age is not the end of the world. scripture states that Christ will reign on this present earth for a thousand years after he returns to end the age. It is not until the end of the thousand years that the world passes away and a new heaven and new earth come into being.

 

[MichaelOwen]

One thing I will say is this : Whether you believe that Christ will rapture the church or not, you better make sure you're heart is right with the Lord and that you have a personal relationship and walk with Him, that's the point all Christians and believers need to be aware of. If you have that in Christ, none of this will matter, only you're walk with Christ and you're relationship with Him as your savior.

 

[garee]

I concur that we are not to incur the Lords wrath. That is the reason why there is to be a seperation, with those who are the Lord's being gathered into His barn.
Is the Lords barn away from the earth, or on earth?

Good point.

The wrath that is not appointed to new creatures is the final judgement . Eternal life as the better thing that accompanies salvation is appointed to those who hearts have been soft.

1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

He will come as a thief in the night during the "revealed wrath" (aging in a decaying process leading toward death and the return to the dust ).

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hello Louis,

I concur that we are not to incur the Lords wrath. That is the reason why there is to be a seperation, with those who are the Lord's being gathered into His barn.

Is the Lords barn away from the earth, or on earth?

Those who are gathered first when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be the wicked who will still be in their mortal bodies. The wheat that will be brought into his barn at that time, will be those great tribulation saints who make through the entire seven years alive when the Lord returns. This is not the church, but the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered.

Furthermore, Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see armies riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven. In Rev.17:14 the church is also mentioned as returning with the Lord to end the age as his "called, chosen and faithful followers."

The separation of the wheat being brought into the Lord's barn, is not referring to the church, for that separation takes place after God's wrath at the end of the age, which again would put the church through the entire wrath of God. Believers must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath, with Jesus as the One opening them.

 

[garee]

No garee! The end of the age is not the end of the world. scripture states that Christ will reign on this present earth for a thousand years after he returns to end the age.

Sure it is .Did you study on how he uses the words last day (singular) and last days (plural) together as to forming a doctrine ? It would seem you are turning the last day(singular) into days(plural) in order to extend your idea of a literal thousand years.

God is not a man as us. Why try and cloth him with flesh as if he was? Was not the one demonstration of the things not seen (the pouring out of His Spirit life )as to the work that was performed before the foundation of the world,

It would seem many today are trying to make God into a man who would have a beginning of Spirit life and a end.

2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

Scripture states that even though some did know Christ after the flesh we know him that way no more forever more. God is not a man as us. The end of the age is the end . and the thousand years is signified just as any other idem used in the parable .to include a chain, hand, bottomless pit, seal , headless souls etc. We walk by faith the unseen using that seen the temporal to give us the eternal

It is not until the end of the thousand years that the world passes away and a new heaven and new earth come into being.

On the last day(not days) in the twinkling of the eye both those on earth and those asleep will both be given their new bodies. The Sun and the moon are no longer here to be used as time keepers.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

The idea that some given a new body at different times is not a biblical teaching.

 

[louis]

I have mentioned this in the past but there are quite a few who seem be blind to plain scripture including leading Evangelists who should know better. I believe its another example of a massive campaign of deception thats infiltrated the Church and has been active for the past few hundred years

I believe its a matter of a lot of these people having very little root in the Word. They need to study the Word more to rightly divide what is written, rather than just pick a scripture and run with it.

 

[garee]

Those who are gathered first when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be the wicked who will still be in their mortal bodies.

They would have to be the ones still breathing. When the unbeliever departs... all of his false hopes die with him. A living spirit is required.

It’s the end of the line. Last train of departure, don't need no ticket just thank the Lord.

His temporal spirit returns to God who gave it, and his temporal corrupted body returns to the lifeless spiritless dust it came from.(No breathing) and therefore no suffering underground where the worm perishes not.

There will be no walking dead (Zombies) .That’s Hollywood that must walk by sight.

Furthermore, Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean.

The chaste virgin bride of Christ our husband is shown in Revelation 12 with the time keepers under her feet. We can see her coming down on the last day, the end of time.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Then in Rev.19:14, we see armies riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven. In Rev.17:14 the church is also mentioned as returning with the Lord to end the age as his "called, chosen and faithful followers."

Yes coming into the new heavens and earth, the end of the age, the last day.

 

[MarcR]

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Has anyone noticed that those in Matthew 24:39 who were taken away were the faithless?
Matthew 24:39 indicates that of the two in the field in Matthew 24:40, the one taken would be the faithless; and that of the two grinding at the mill, the one taken would also be ​the faithless.

IMO this passage does not speak of the rapture. As the wicked in the time of Noah were taken by the flood; even so will the wicked at the last judgement be taken to destruction: is the message here.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Has anyone noticed that those in Matthew 24:39 who were taken away were the faithless?
Matthew 24:39 indicates that of the two in the field in Matthew 24:40, the one taken would be the faithless; and that of the two grinding at the mill, the one taken would also be ​the faithless.

Did you notice the major flaw in your interpretation?

"...took them all away..." means "swept them all away" to die in the flood.

That is not the same thing as harpagesometha --- CAUGHT UP TOGETHER -- to meet th Lord in the air, and here is where the illustration of the two in the field and the two women comes in. The ones who are taken are raptured, while the ones left behind are not.

 

[louis]

Hello Louis,



Those who are gathered first when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, will be the wicked who will still be in their mortal bodies. The wheat that will be brought into his barn at that time, will be those great tribulation saints who make through the entire seven years alive when the Lord returns. This is not the church, but the great tribulation saints introduced in Rev.7:9-17. These are those who will come to Christ after the church has been gathered.

Furthermore, Rev.19:6-8 reveals the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she will receive her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14, we see armies riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen and following the Lord out of heaven. In Rev.17:14 the church is also mentioned as returning with the Lord to end the age as his "called, chosen and faithful followers."

The separation of the wheat being brought into the Lord's barn, is not referring to the church, for that separation takes place after God's wrath at the end of the age, which again would put the church through the entire wrath of God. Believers must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath, with Jesus as the One opening them.

I believe in only one gathering of the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31), and from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27).

Matthew 24:31 [FONT=&quot]And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.[/FONT]

Mark 13:27 [FONT=&quot]And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.[/FONT]

 

[garee]

I think many have missed where Jesus is answering three questions in Matt 24. when shall these things be? 2. What shall be the signs of your Coming?3. And the end of the WorldJesus answer them and tell of the temple .

One thing I have noticed is how those who are quick to believe by walking by sight after the three avenues spoken of in 1 John 2.

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world..1Jo 2:15

This is rather than using the prescription for rightly dividing the parables.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The signs in Mathew are signs of observance . Just as in the days of Noah when men used their imagination as a personal source of faith .And no faith in respect to the faith of God

They are not signs we are to seek after called signs and wonders with the wonders representing the unseen. Christ said it’s an evil generation (the generation of natural unconverted men) that do seek after as signs and wonders gospel . No sign as a sign and wonder has been given. The last was the sign of Noah.

The temple lost it affect used as a parable when Christ said it is finished. The veil is rent. The walls not seen came tumbling down

 

[Ahwatukee]

They would have to be the ones still breathing. When the unbeliever departs... all of his false hopes die with him. A living spirit is required.

The body dies, but the spirit departs. According to scripture in the case of the unbeliever, at the time of death the spirit departs and goes down into Sheol/Hades conscious and aware, as demonstrated through the rich man and Lazarus.

There will be no walking dead (Zombies) .That’s Hollywood that must walk by sight.

Colorful, but you misunderstand. When the wicked die, their bodies are buried or cremated, but the spirit departs and goes into Sheol/Hades where they will remain in torment until after the thousand year reign of Christ where at which time they will be resurrected and will stand before God and judged at the great white throne.

The chaste virgin bride of Christ our husband is shown in Revelation 12 with the time keepers under her feet. We can see her coming down on the last day, the end of time.

You ignore scripture which identifies the woman of Rev.12 as being Israel. The church is not in view here. In fact, the last time the word church appears is at the end of chapter 3 and is never used again until Rev.22:16.

Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Your chronology is out of whack! The above takes place after the thousand year reign of Christ and after the great white throne judgment when the new heaven and new earth are created.

Yes coming into the new heavens and earth, the end of the age, the last day.

No! Please don't attempt to change what I said. Rev.19:11-21 is depicting when Jesus returns to this present earth to end the age. Following that will be the millennial kingdom, followed by the great white throne judgment. After that, then the new heaven, new earth and new Jerusalem appear.

As I have said many times, you should not be teaching these things because, though you think that you do, you have understanding of end-time events. And I know that you think that you are right regarding these subjects, but you will find out that you are not.I would remind you of what is written about those who add to or take away from the prophecy of this book.

 

[Depleted]

Matthew 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Has anyone noticed that those in Matthew 24:39 who were taken away were the faithless?
Matthew 24:39 indicates that of the two in the field in Matthew 24:40, the one taken would be the faithless; and that of the two grinding at the mill, the one taken would also be ​the faithless.

About 40 years after Jesus said this, (and still in the lifetime of some of the apostles), some were taken and some were left behind. Rome sent out an edict that said if you were a Christian they would kill you. Two in the field. One a Christian and one not. The Christian was taken away to be killed. Two grinding. One a Christian and one not. The Christian was taken to be killed. As in the days of Noah, people are still eating, drinking and being married. Ultimately the ones taken went home to the Lord after being killed. The ones left behind have a sentence of a different kind over them.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I believe in only one gathering of the elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31), and from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven (Mark 13:27).

Hi Louis,

The gathering above takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. This is not the gathering of the church! As I said before, the above gathering takes place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Therefore the church cannot be gathered there, because it would put us through the entire wrath of God.


1 Thes.4:13-17 is a different event from Matt.24:31. You continue to ignore the same issue in that, because Jesus already took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, we then cannot go through the time of God's wrath, because it has already been satisfied by Christ. Not to mention that scripture states that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10). And the Lord said that he would keep believers out of that time of wrath (Rev.3:10).


The church must be gathered before God's wrath begins and Matt.24:31 takes place after God's wrath.

Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As I pointed out earlier, the above is not referring to the rapture. But those who will be gathered will be those who make it through the time of God's wrath and the beasts kingdom, which is who the angels will be gathering. They will be those who are still in their mortal bodies and who, along with the woman/Israel, will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.

You are confusing the event of the gathering of the church with the Lord's return to end the age, when these are two different events. As I also mentioned, we the church, are those who will be returning with the Lord to the earth to end the age as demonstrated in Rev.19:6-8, 14. We are those who will be riding those white horses following Christ out of heaven.

Please, before responding, go look at Rev.19:6-8 where the bride is receiving her fine linen at the wedding of the Lamb in heaven and then look at Rev.19:14 and take notice that it is the bride/church riding on the white horses wearing that same fine linen that she will have previously received in Rev.19:6-8.

 

[IamWhoIam]

Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are all about the end of the current world systems under Satan.
And what exactly are you claiming; that the Lord came as a thief in the night in 70 AD Jerusalem and took one individual and left another individual? The few who weren't killed by the Romans (not Jesus) in 70 AD Jerusalem were taken into severe bondage. Nothing was left.

Quite the stretch to say the current world systems, could very well be tomorrow's world systems, beyond any people living today.