The Rapture

[Jackson123]

The very fact that the book of Revelation is called The Apocalypse, and the Greek apokalupsis means unveiling, is a clear indication that you have failed to take into account. Furthermore, since Christ actually OPENED the seals, nothing is sealed since then, and everything that God wants us to know is REVEALED. You will note that I did not say "everything", but everything that God wants us to know.

Yes Daniel was told back in around 600 B.C. "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" but after the coming of Christ and the Revelation of Christ, "the time of the end" became "the time is at hand".

Having said that, since this thread is on the Rapture, the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT mentioned in Revelation but it is mentioned throughout the New Testament. If we had nothing else, John 14:1-3 would suffice.

As to four interpretations, they cannot all be simultaneously correct, so it behooves every Christians to determine which is the correct interpretation and stick with it. A Pre-Tribulation Pre-Millennial Resurrection/Rapture of the saints fits perfectly with all other Gospel truth. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture, and has no relationship to any tribulation period.

seem to me rapture have relation with tribulation

2 thes 2


2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

​rapture after man of sin be reveal or after tribulation

 

[Endoscopy]

The very fact that the book of Revelation is called The Apocalypse, and the Greek apokalupsis means unveiling, is a clear indication that you have failed to take into account. Furthermore, since Christ actually OPENED the seals, nothing is sealed since then, and everything that God wants us to know is REVEALED. You will note that I did not say "everything", but everything that God wants us to know.

Yes Daniel was told back in around 600 B.C. "Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" but after the coming of Christ and the Revelation of Christ, "the time of the end" became "the time is at hand".

Having said that, since this thread is on the Rapture, the Resurrection/Rapture is NOT mentioned in Revelation but it is mentioned throughout the New Testament. If we had nothing else, John 14:1-3 would suffice.

As to four interpretations, they cannot all be simultaneously correct, so it behooves every Christians to determine which is the correct interpretation and stick with it. A Pre-Tribulation Pre-Millennial Resurrection/Rapture of the saints fits perfectly with all other Gospel truth. The Rapture is always imminent in Scripture, and has no relationship to any tribulation period.

You are very humorous. Since it is unveiled how do you reconcile the 4 seperate eschatologyical views that theologians have argued over for centuries. No other issue in scripture has this huge problem. Have you read the eschatologyical scriptures and created a coherent timeline? Are you saying that you have much better understanding of these scriptures than the theologians have. If so please explain the correct version to this board. I have tried and failed myself. Daniel and Revelation are written with lots of symbology. Where did you come up with the concept that the coming of Jesus is the end time since He spoke about the end times. What he said hasn't been fulfilled. It's been 2000 years and counting. The end time is not here!! Where did you come up with your theology of eschatology? The rapture is part of eschatology therefore can't be separated from it.

You really babble nonbiblical nonsense.

 

[Endoscopy]

Eschatologyical scriptures include parts of the Gospels and epistles.

 

[Allenbee]

Yes the WHOLE BIBLE is the word of GOD.
To say the pretrib rapture is the GREEK SCRIPTURES ....MYSTERY of GOD... is sick !
Isaiah prophesied before the destruction by BABYLON.
This TRUE man of GOD...FORETOLD SYRUS...200 years or so before Syrus was even born...and Syrus would allow the temple to be rebuilt...FOR our Lords FIRST APPEARANCE !!! iSAIAH 45

Isaiah prophesied our Lords return, AND THIS ; (should break your heart).

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression[a] and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.[b]
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes[c] his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life[d] and be satisfied[e];
by his knowledge[f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,[g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,[h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.

So...are the prophets GOD'S word ?
For SURE...so do not listen to MAN ![/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[Allenbee]

[FONT=&quot]In the last days[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]the mountain of the Lord’s temple will be established
as the highest of the mountains; (THE KINGDOM OF GOD)
it will be exalted above the hills,
and all nations will stream to it.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 Many peoples will come and say,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the temple of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths.”
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He will judge between the nations
and will settle disputes for many peoples.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]5 Come, descendants of Jacob, (Sons of Abraham...Messianic JEW and Messianic GENTILE).
let us walk in the light of the Lord.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
Rev 7; 9-17...h; and they served HIM day and night in HIS temple.

The great crowd...who come OUT of the great tribulation... holding on to the skirt of the JEW... THE 144,000 marked by GOD as we OBEY ALL... HIS laws and statutes. (JESUS is a JEW...THE LION from the tribe of JUDAH). WE... are grafted in to this root). To me...We MUST accept our MESSIANIC ROOTS.... OR "Get away from me you workers of lawlessness"...AS APPLIED to so called.... "Christians".

REPEAT..."WE" believers ARE... MESSIANIC gentiles, holding on to the skirt of MESSIANIC Jews.

NOW UNDERSTAND...Sons of JACOB...Sons of Abraham.

Malachi 4;
4 “Remember the law of my servant Moses, the decrees and laws I gave him at Horeb for all Israel.
5“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
6 He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; least I come and strike the earth with total destruction.”

We are "the voice in the wilderness" in the spirit of Elijah.... FAITH with WORKS !!! OK.
[FONT=&quot]
13 When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman (BELIEVERS) who had given birth to the male child.[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]15 Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]16 But the earth (not a rapture) helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

THAT...IS BELIEVERS IN OUR LORD JESUS.

Thank you Lord... thank you.[/FONT][/FONT]

 

[Allenbee]

5 SECOND EDIT TIME !!!!

Sorry... CYRUS not Syrus !!!

SEE the beauty of "flee to the mountains"/ "flies to the wilderness"

Isaiah 25;
[h=3]Praise to the Lord[/h][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]25 Lord, you are my God;
I will exalt you and praise your name,
for in perfect faithfulness
you have done wonderful things,
things planned long ago.
2 You have made the city a heap of rubble,
the fortified town a ruin,
the foreigners’ stronghold a city no more;
it will never be rebuilt.
3 Therefore strong peoples will honor you;
cities of ruthless nations will revere you.
4 You have been a refuge for the poor,
a refuge for the needy in their distress,
a shelter from the storm
and a shade from the heat.
For the breath of the ruthless
is like a storm driving against a wall
5 and like the heat of the desert.
You silence the uproar of foreigners;
as heat is reduced by the shadow of a cloud, (as at Exodus).
so the song of the ruthless is stilled.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 In that day they will say,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]“Surely this is our God;
we trusted in him, and he saved us.
(What rapture)?

This is the Lord, we trusted in him;
let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”[/FONT]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]10 The hand of the Lord will rest on this mountain; (Kingdom of GOD, our Lord preached).
but Moab will be trampled in their land
as straw is trampled down in the manure.
11 They will stretch out their hands in it,
as swimmers stretch out their hands to swim.
God will bring down their pride
despite the cleverness[a] of their hands.
12 He will bring down your high fortified walls
and lay them low;
he will bring them down to the ground,
to the very dust. (Waiting for a rapture).

Hey my brothers...READ the WHOLE Bible.

peace is good.[/FONT]
[/FONT]

 

[DiscipleDave]

You go too far with the claim about all of your posts.

What i claim is True. If i say otherwise i lie.

We all have sinned and come short of the glory God!!

All HAVE sinned. True. Does not NOT say as this generation likes to believe that All WILL sin. Jesus told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" This generation will do all in their power to try to interpret those verse to mean something other than what He actually said. There is verses that teach "Shall we continue to sin? God forbid" There are verses that teach "Awake to righteousness and sin not" There are verses that teach those who are born of God Do not continue to sin. There are verses that teach that those who can't cease from sin are called "Cursed Children"
i have sinned, i have sinned much in my life. i no longer continue to sin. With Jesus living in me, and He is my strength and power against every single temptation that comes upon me, i now do all things to please ONLY Jesus Christ.
Tell me. What sin do you do that you can't possibly cease from? There is none. Therefore be prepared to answer for your self on Judgement Day, why you chose not to cease from them, when it was in your power to do so.

Claiming your posts are free of any error is conceit.

i have never not once claimed my posts are free from error, i am human and make mistakes all the time. What i do say though, and is True, What God has told me is the TRUTH, and there is NO error in what He has told me.

We all have errors in understanding areas of the Bible especially eschatology.

Sorry, i am not learned and have no ideal what the word "eschatology" means. Nor do i care to know such words and the meanings thereof. What i understand concerning the Word of God is what God has told me in conversations. If God tells me "There was a layer of water where our ozone layer is now" It is not my understanding that there was a layer of water where the ozone layer is now, but is what God told me. Therefore NOT my understanding, but His.
Sure there are things in the Bible that i do not understand, and if God ever decides to speak with me again, i will have some questions for him concerning those things that i do not yet understand.

There is a reason theologians have for centuries discussed the 4 seperate views of eschatology.

What do i care about the views of theologians? What i care about is what God has told me.

Daniel states that areas of his book are sealed and the same applies to areas of Revelation.

If they are sealed, does that not indicate that they will be opened one day? Doesn't Scriptures teach that Daniel was to seal them until the time of the end? So then how are they unsealed? Will not God reveal to someone during the time of the end what has been sealed?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Both books are heavy in symbolism and that makes them impossible to understand until it is happening.

You must not be familiar with the following verses:

Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mat_18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

So then if you ask for the understanding and Truly believe He will tell you the understanding, He is not a liar and Will tell you. And because you say it is impossible, you must not know about this verses either:

Luk_1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk_18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

So then it is possible with God.

Looking back today we now understand Daniel's statue. The same applies to the rest of the eschatologyical sections of the Bible. They are deliberately as clear as mud. Understanding will occur as the prophecied portions occur.

And they can also occur if God chooses to reveal them to whomsoever He reveals them.

Dan_2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.

So God reveals to whom God reveals.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

If he didn't get a glorified body than that might mean that he still has an appointment with death. The same holds true for Elijah. The bible specifically states that he is coming back to earth one day.

It is my opinion, (not what God told me) that Enoch and Elijah will be the two prophets in the last days in Jerusalem.
It is written that it is appointed for all men to die. Even Jesus died. So i do not believe Enoch or Elijah will escape that verse either.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Where will postrib rapture go at this point?

The rapture is pretrib.
Pretribbers had it right all the time.

Note that historicists and post tribs NEVER BRING UP Israël. Becoming a nation mid 1900.
Uh huh

There are Scriptures that is contrary to post-trib
There are Scriptures that is contrary to pre-trib
There are NO Scriptures that is contrary to mid-trib, not one verse. We will go through some of the Tribulation Period but not all of it. That is what Scriptures teach.

Here is a Timeline and is not contrary to Scriptures.

 

[Endoscopy]

What i claim is True. If i say otherwise i lie.



All HAVE sinned. True. Does not NOT say as this generation likes to believe that All WILL sin. Jesus told a man and a woman to "Go and sin no more" This generation will do all in their power to try to interpret those verse to mean something other than what He actually said. There is verses that teach "Shall we continue to sin? God forbid" There are verses that teach "Awake to righteousness and sin not" There are verses that teach those who are born of God Do not continue to sin. There are verses that teach that those who can't cease from sin are called "Cursed Children"
i have sinned, i have sinned much in my life. i no longer continue to sin. With Jesus living in me, and He is my strength and power against every single temptation that comes upon me, i now do all things to please ONLY Jesus Christ.
Tell me. What sin do you do that you can't possibly cease from? There is none. Therefore be prepared to answer for your self on Judgement Day, why you chose not to cease from them, when it was in your power to do so.



i have never not once claimed my posts are free from error, i am human and make mistakes all the time. What i do say though, and is True, What God has told me is the TRUTH, and there is NO error in what He has told me.



Sorry, i am not learned and have no ideal what the word "eschatology" means. Nor do i care to know such words and the meanings thereof. What i understand concerning the Word of God is what God has told me in conversations. If God tells me "There was a layer of water where our ozone layer is now" It is not my understanding that there was a layer of water where the ozone layer is now, but is what God told me. Therefore NOT my understanding, but His.
Sure there are things in the Bible that i do not understand, and if God ever decides to speak with me again, i will have some questions for him concerning those things that i do not yet understand.



What do i care about the views of theologians? What i care about is what God has told me.



If they are sealed, does that not indicate that they will be opened one day? Doesn't Scriptures teach that Daniel was to seal them until the time of the end? So then how are they unsealed? Will not God reveal to someone during the time of the end what has been sealed?

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.



You must not be familiar with the following verses:

Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Mat_18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Mat_21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

So then if you ask for the understanding and Truly believe He will tell you the understanding, He is not a liar and Will tell you. And because you say it is impossible, you must not know about this verses either:

Luk_1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Luk_18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

So then it is possible with God.



And they can also occur if God chooses to reveal them to whomsoever He reveals them.

Dan_2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Amo_3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.

So God reveals to whom God reveals.


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

If you are 100% correct look up the 4 seperate eschatologyical views and explain to this board how the theologians are wrong and you are correct!!! Are you saying the theologians that for centuries having the 4 eschatologyical views are wrong!!

Eschatology is the study of the end times scriptures and trying to create what they mean by the inrerpretation of what they mean. Your ignorance is coming through loud and clear.

Methinks your ego is getting in the way.

 

[Ahwatukee]

There are Scriptures that is contrary to post-trib
There are Scriptures that is contrary to pre-trib
There are NO Scriptures that is contrary to mid-trib, not one verse. We will go through some of the Tribulation Period but not all of it. That is what Scriptures teach.

Here is a Timeline and is not contrary to Scriptures.

View attachment 176172

Hello DiscipleDave,

There are NO Scriptures that is contrary to mid-trib, not one verse

The seven years will be in fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens' that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as revealed in Dan.9:24. Therefore, that seven years is God's wrath, not man's or Satan's.

Furthermore, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, which are followed by the bowl judgments, which make Him the One who is initiating and is responsible for God's wrath. The entire seven years is God's tribulation upon Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world.

That said, scripture states the following:

* The believer is not appointed to suffer wrath (1 Thes.5:9)

* Jesus rescues the believer from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10)

* Jesus promises to keep the believer out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's coming wrath (Rev.3:10)

Regarding your chart, the first six seals should be included within the seven years and not outside of it, as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all belong together as a set and should not broken up with one part representing tribulation and the other wrath. It is all God's wrath.

Also, you have Jesus returning in the middle of the seven years when scripture is clear that he doesn't return until after the wrath of God has been completed, which is after pouring out of the 7th bowl and which takes place at the end of the seven years.

And second, you have the new Jerusalem coming down in the middle of the seven years, right in the middle of God's wrath and upon this earth. Scripture has the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the thousand year reign of Christ and after the great white throne judgment and when the new heaven and new earth is created, as demonstrated in Rev.20:11, 21:1-2.

The new heaven and new earth do not appear until after this present heaven and earth have passed away and yet you have the new Jerusalem touching down on this earth and in the middle of God's wrath. Therefore, it is contrary to scripture.

 

[Endoscopy]

Hello DiscipleDave,



The seven years will be in fulfillment of the seventy 'sevens' that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as revealed in Dan.9:24. Therefore, that seven years is God's wrath, not man's or Satan's.

Furthermore, Jesus is the One who is opening the seals, which lead into the trumpets, which are followed by the bowl judgments, which make Him the One who is initiating and is responsible for God's wrath. The entire seven years is God's tribulation upon Israel and the rest of the Christ rejecting world.

That said, scripture states the following:

* The believer is not appointed to suffer wrath (1 Thes.5:9)

* Jesus rescues the believer from the coming wrath (1 Thes.1:10)

* Jesus promises to keep the believer out of that hour of trial, i.e. God's coming wrath (Rev.3:10)

Regarding your chart, the first six seals should be included within the seven years and not outside of it, as the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments all belong together as a set and should not broken up with one part representing tribulation and the other wrath. It is all God's wrath.

Also, you have Jesus returning in the middle of the seven years when scripture is clear that he doesn't return until after the wrath of God has been completed, which is after pouring out of the 7th bowl and which takes place at the end of the seven years.

And second, you have the new Jerusalem coming down in the middle of the seven years, right in the middle of God's wrath and upon this earth. Scripture has the new Jerusalem coming down out of heaven after the thousand year reign of Christ and after the great white throne judgment and when the new heaven and new earth is created, as demonstrated in Rev.20:11, 21:1-2.

The new heaven and new earth do not appear until after this present heaven and earth have passed away and yet you have the new Jerusalem touching down on this earth and in the middle of God's wrath. Therefore, it is contrary to scripture.

Keep in mind that Jesus is the Father. Therefore Jesus and God are one and the same. He told his disciples that He and the Father were one. If they see Him they are seeing the Father. Using both names sometimes makes that fact a bit hidden.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Keep in mind that Jesus is the Father. Therefore Jesus and God are one and the same. He told his disciples that He and the Father were one. If they see Him they are seeing the Father. Using both names sometimes makes that fact a bit hidden.

Jesus is the Son. Yes, He is God, but not God the Father. That's how I understand the trinity.

 

[Allenbee]

New thoughts;
Today… as believers in our Lord, let’s do agree on a few very important things.
1; We are all in expectation of our Lords return. Right !
2; We all agree Jesus saves us from HIS wrath*. OK !
So I don’t believe we get “zoomed” away to heaven (pretrib rapture), but I do believe we are to flee the destruction as instructed by Jesus, and shown over and over again by the Hebrew Prophets.
So fleeing as congregations is also pre tribulation… but not a rapture !
The rapture FOR SOME… happens at the first resurrection which is after the tribulation of those days.

Now once our lord is here… then Jesus saves us from his wrath*…right!
So then the appearance of our lord at mid tribulation would be salvation …as HE leads and controls the wrath .
So here is my mid tribulation proof of the timing of our Lords presence;
For this we have to go backwards…the last given times first. The last 3 1\2 years.

Rev 12;
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, away from the face of the serpent. 3 ½ years. OK !

So I conclude…that is the last 3 1\2 years of satan active on earth then !!!
AND the start of the 3 ½ years of wrath.

Now lets see when satan is cast down…BECAUSE that will be the start of the wrath of Jesus, and the start of satans “short period of time”. HELL on earth !

Well… we just go to Math 24 and there at v 29 we see the war in heaven at Rev 12 described as the heavens shaking... and the stars falling… are satan and his angels cast down to earth. Rev 12, 4”And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth”:7; “and there was war in heaven”.
Math 24;29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:


There we have it;
So Jesus appears straight after war in heaven and satan cast down to earth.

So this incident… is the start of GOD’S WRATH…LED by our Lord Jesus. MID TRIBULATION.

Good news for believers… as we are safe from our lords wrath… BECAUSE we OBEYED him to “flee to the mountains” to set up Mt Zion worldwide, and our brothers still preaching the kingdom of GOD on earth to all nations are now urgently, to fly home to the wilderness. BECAUSE as satan is cast down…THIS is the man of lawlessness now on earth as a MAN…and can preform miracles so as to mislead. Satan… is “the disgusting thing causing desolation”… and the very latest time to flee. Math 24; 14-22 and Rev 12;14.

This leader of EVIL…sets up the “the man of lawlessness”, “the wild beast”, “the mark of the wild beast”, ALL RELIGION banned (removal of the power of the holy ones) as Israel is hit, and satan now stands on the holy place claiming to be God.

Any thoughts please ? (Good Bible students only, as any fool can make foolish remarks). We are seeking TRUTH are we not ?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Good day Allenbee,

New thoughts;
Today… as believers in our Lord, let’s do agree on a few very important things.
1; We are all in expectation of our Lords return. Right !
2; We all agree Jesus saves us from HIS wrath*. OK !
So I don’t believe we get “zoomed” away to heaven (pretrib rapture), but I do believe we are to flee the destruction as instructed by Jesus, and shown over and over again by the Hebrew Prophets.

Here is the million dollar question: How do you flee God's destruction when it will affect the entire earth? For the most part expositors get this wrong in putting the church on the earth during this time because they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. It will be the worst time in the history of the world and never equaled again.

The 4th seal and 6th trumpet, are the only two plagues of wrath that give a percentage of the resulting fatalities being a fourth and a third, respectively, which would be over half the earths population within that first 3 1/2 years. And that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2 and 3 nor from the bowl judgments. Regarding that time of wrath, Jesus said that if those days had been allowed to go on any longer than stated that no one would be left alive. That's how devastating the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to be.

In addition, since the mark of the beast will be the only way that a person will be able to electronically credit and debit their bank accounts (buying and selling), then anyone who does not receive it will not be apart of the worlds electronic crediting and debiting system. That being the state of things, if the church were here they would not be able have a job, buy food, gas, pay mortgage or rent or anything else. How could a believer flee from that if the whole world is on that mark system?

When those demonic beings that resemble locusts are released from the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, only those with the seal of God on their foreheads will be exempt, which are identified as being only those 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. That would leave the church exposed to this plague of wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

And what about the sounding of the 1st trumpet when a third of the earth and a third of the trees are burned up. What is not mentioned in the scripture is that, if you have third of the earth and trees being burned up, then there is going to be a great number of fatalities associated with that. Do you think that there would be no believers included in that third?

Since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, the only logical answer is that the Lord will come to gather his church prior to opening of that first seal which initiates God's wrath.

Now once our lord is here… then Jesus saves us from his wrath*…right!
So then the appearance of our lord at mid tribulation would be salvation …as HE leads and controls the wrath .

Scripture is clear that the Lord does not return to the earth to end the age until after his wrath has been poured out, which is after the 7th bowl judgment and not before. Furthermore, there is nothing in the context of the 7th trumpet that states that the Lord returns to the earth in the middle of the tribulation period.

7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which decieveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, away from the face of the serpent. 3 ½ years. OK !

So I conclude…that is the last 3 1\2 years of satan active on earth then !!!
AND the start of the 3 ½ years of wrath.

The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars, is identified in Genesis 37:9-10 as representing Israel. The dragon is Satan who goes after the woman/Israel who flees out into the wilderness and is cared for by God for 1260 days, which as you pointed out, is that last 3 1/2 years.

The beginning of that last 3 1/2 years is not where God's wrath starts, for it was announced in its entirety after the 6th seal, i.e. it includes the seals that will have previously taken place, as well as the trumpets and bowl judgments which are to follow. That entire last seven years is God's wrath because it will be the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as revealed in Dan.9:24. It is the time of the vengeance of our God, the day of the Lord, the hour of trial, with Jesus returning at the end of it.

Well… we just go to Math 24 and there at v 29 we see the war in heaven at Rev 12 described as the heavens shaking... and the stars falling… are Satan and his angels cast down to earth. Rev 12, 4”And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth”:7; “and there was war in heaven”.

Rev.12 takes place in the middle of the seven years, where Matt.24:29-31 takes place at the end of the seven years when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. You're misapplying scriptures.

Good news for believers… as we are safe from our lords wrath… BECAUSE we OBEYED him to “flee to the mountains” to set up Mt Zion worldwide, and our brothers still preaching the kingdom of GOD on earth to all nations are now urgently, to fly home to the wilderness.

The good news is that the church will be safe from our Lord's wrath because we won't be upon the earth to even be exposed to it. The warning to flee to the mountains of Judea is directed at Israel, as well as the mention of praying that their flight not take place on the Sabbath, as well as the mention of the abomination being set up in the coming temple. It's all about Israel and not the church, which will not even be on the earth during that time.

And that is the truth of the matter.

 

[Endoscopy]

Jesus is the Son. Yes, He is God, but not God the Father. That's how I understand the trinity.

Your theology is wrong. The trinity is one and only one God. Jesus said He is the Father.

John 14 New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Comforts His Disciples

14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[ my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

 

[Endoscopy]

[h=1]John 1New International Version (NIV)[/h][h=3]The Word Became Flesh[/h][FONT=&quot]1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testifyconcerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and[b] is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.[/FONT]

 

[Muzungu256]

Your theology is wrong. The trinity is one and only one God. Jesus said He is the Father.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

is this some oneness pentecostal stuff?????? u are mistaken u see............

 

[SovereignGrace]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

is this some oneness pentecostal stuff?????? u are mistaken u see............

Jesus said He would go back to His Father.

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father, having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end.During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God,[John 13:1-3]

Jesus and the Father are one in unity, but God the Father is not God the Son, or God the Spirit. There is one God, but three distinct persons in the triune Godhead.

He's teetering upon Oneness pentecostalism.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Keep in mind that Jesus is the Father. Therefore Jesus and God are one and the same. He told his disciples that He and the Father were one. If they see Him they are seeing the Father. Using both names sometimes makes that fact a bit hidden.

Yes, Jesus did say that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. That is because the Bible says that Christ is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God the Father. IOW He resembles the Father in every way, but the Father cannot and will not be seen by mortal man. It is the Son who reveals ("declares") Him. But that cannot be translated into "Jesus is the Father".

Let's say that you are the "spittin' image" of your father. You not only resemble him physically, but you speak and act like him, and display all his mannerisms. That still does not make you your father.

Thus we have three distinct Divine persons within the Godhead who are in total agreement and harmony and are all God, and where the Son (the second Person) represents the Father fully. When we acknowledge that this is the Mystery of God, we have no problem believing this by faith.