Not By Works

[PHart]

He knows me enough to know I didn't mean it derogatorily.
(I hope.)

I'm good with the label. I want everyone to be reminded, especially OSASer's, that every time they retrieve a sealed container of food from the refrigerator that 'sealed' does not mean, by definition, 'unable to be sealed'. Let us all be reminded of that on November 24th, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So its a circular argument?
To not have faith in your circumstance is to not have faith that God guides your steps.
The point to me is not to be sinless. To me its to walk in what truth He has shown me.
I'm sure He has many more things to show and say to me.

does not take away the fact that if we trusted God in all areas we would be sinless. The fact we are not showed we are faithless in some areas.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

does not take away the fact that if we trusted God in all areas we would be sinless. The fact we are not showed we are faithless in some areas.

Correct. We have, or are, denying Him in some area to side with the world. Which is what we were discussing, where you said to deny Him is a different thing than mistrust/lack of faith.

I think what you said was...denying Him and being faithless were different things.

 

[PHart]

Lets see, all the problems

1. Your comparing God to man.
2. Your comparing the HS to wrap.
3. In this example. The plate of lasagnia (which represents the saved) can not unseal itself
4. Only the man (which represents God) who originally sealed it, or another man could unseal it.

yet you do not see the issues here..
smh

Okay, good. You acknowledge that the Lasagna is not Jesus. Thank you.

And, yes, God does the unsealing, not you, not I. What we do is the return to unbelief that would cause God to unseal us. I'm glad you get the analogy.


The progression of the 'sealed' argument of the OSAS club has been this:

1) We are sealed so that means we can't lose our salvation ('sealed' meaning 'unable to be unsealed' to them).

Well, that didn't work because 'sealed' does not mean 'unable to be unsealed'. So then they went to this.

2) We are sealed until the day of redemption.

True, the Bible plainly states that, but that still doesn't take into account the condition for staying sealed that the Bible gives--enduring in believing to the very end.

So, the argument now has became this:

3) God won't unseal anybody.

Problem: that means those who lose their part of the Tree of Life and the City get to keep the Holy Spirit. That means some of the wicked damned have the Holy Spirit. How does that work? Lol. And I'm the one being blasphemous here?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Correct. We have, or are, denying Him in some area to side with the world. Which is what we were discussing, where you said to deny Him is a different thing than mistrust/lack of faith.

I think what you said was...denying Him and being faithless were different things.

lol.. I disagree.. If I am weak in faiht in a certain area and end up committing sin because of it. it does not mean I deny him.

So I stand by what I said.

 

[VCO]

You either do not understand what I said, or you did not read it.

You people keep talking out both sides of your mouth. On one hand you agree that the believer WILL produce works, or else he isn't saved, but then you turn right around and rant and rave that works are not required and that the person who has no works is saved. It's quite comical, actually, lol.

WILL PRODUCE GOOD WORKS AND WALK IN OBEDIENCE,
has nothing to do with GETTING SAVED,
IT IS WHAT YOU WILL DO BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM,
AFTER YOU ARE GENUINELY SAVED.
HE changes your spiritual being TO WANT TO DO THOSE THINGS.

HAVE TO DO THOSE THINGS TO BE SAVED IS A LIE THAT AMOUNTS TO A FALSE GOSPEL.


Is any of this ever going to get through that rock hard head, please LORD?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lOkay, good. You acknowledge that the Lasagna is not Jesus. Thank you.

And, yes, God does the unsealing, not you, not I. What we do is the return to unbelief that would cause God to unseal us. I'm glad you get the analogy.

The progression of the 'sealed' argument of the OSAS club has been this:

1) We are sealed so that means we can't lose our salvation.

Well, that didn't work because 'sealed' does not mean 'unable to be unsealed'. So then they went to this.

2) We are sealed until the day of redemption.

True, the Bible plainly states that, but that still doesn't take into account the condition for staying sealed that the Bible gives--enduring in believing to the very end.

So, the argument now b ecame this:

3) God won't unseal anybody.

Problem: that means those who lose their part of the Tree of Life and the City get to keep the Holy Spirit. That means some of the wicked damned have the Holy Spirit. How does that work? Lol. And I'm the one being blasphemous here?

The lasagnia can not stop believing or start believing, getting the person to unseal it.

Your example is destroyed either way.

Again, The ark is a better example

God sealed noah in ther ark. Please do not tell us they Noah could unseal the door and open it.

finally, The Bible there’ll s us we are sealed UNTIL. That is the ONLY condition by which the seal would be removed. If there were a possibility it could be removed before then, Paul would have told us. In fact, he said these words three times, How many more times does he have to say it before you believe it?

So your point 2 is wrong

point 3 makes no sense whatsoever, People who have the hs will not lose their part to the tree of life, only those who are unbelievers (God died for them too)

I know you hate calvanism, But your hate for them has you blinded to what is really truth, instead of trying to refut them at all cost. Why do you not try as I do to show calvanism is faulty while keeping the gospel of grace intact.

 

[PHart]

Correct. We have, or are, denying Him in some area to side with the world. Which is what we were discussing, where you said to deny Him is a different thing than mistrust/lack of faith.

I think what you said was...denying Him and being faithless were different things.

From a purely technical point of view, you are correct. When we act worldly and unspiritual it is in effect a kind of denying of Christ who lives in us. But the passage is talking about a denying that is different than being unfaithful. How do we know? The outcome of each is different.

The passage says if we are unfaithful, He remains faithful. But if we deny him, he will deny us. So the two have to be two different things.

Peter is a good example. As you have pointed out, he got scared and denied having been with him. He was scared for his own skin, not declaring to the world that Christ is not the Messiah in a willful return to his old sinful life. Christ remained faithful to him during that time.

 

[PHart]

The lasagnia can not stop believing or start believing, getting the person to unseal it.

Lol, so typical.

The lasagna does not have eyes and can breathe, so the analogy is flawed, lol. You graspeth at straws. Do I have to read the rest of your post?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lol, so typical.

The lasagna does not have eyes and can breathe, so the analogy is flawed, lol. You graspeth at straws. Do I have to read the rest of your post?

Lol. If your going to use an example. At least use an example that is lifelike. Your example was flawed. Thats not my fault.

If a person can be sealed based on him changing his mind, then the lasagnia has to have the ability to do this.

Again, Use the ark and an example. God sealed noah in, Could noah unseal what God sealed even if he wanted to. And why would he want to?

 

[Limey410v2]

Okay, good. You acknowledge that the Lasagna is not Jesus. Thank you.

And, yes, God does the unsealing, not you, not I. What we do is the return to unbelief that would cause God to unseal us. I'm glad you get the analogy.


The progression of the 'sealed' argument of the OSAS club has been this:

1) We are sealed so that means we can't lose our salvation ('sealed' meaning 'unable to be unsealed' to them).

Well, that didn't work because 'sealed' does not mean 'unable to be unsealed'. So then they went to this.

2) We are sealed until the day of redemption.

True, the Bible plainly states that, but that still doesn't take into account the condition for staying sealed that the Bible gives--enduring in believing to the very end.

So, the argument now has became this:

3) God won't unseal anybody.

Problem: that means those who lose their part of the Tree of Life and the City get to keep the Holy Spirit. That means some of the wicked damned have the Holy Spirit. How does that work? Lol. And I'm the one being blasphemous here?

You are only focusing on sealed and unsealed.

Salvation is not just being sealed.

It is the indwelling of the HS in us.

It is us living in Him and Him in us.

It is relying on His promise of Him never leaving us.

Never is an absolute.

He doesn't say one thing, and then do another.

If He never leaves how will He break the seal?

Our eternal security is based on the creator of the universe keeping us, not us maintaining a "satisfactory" set of circumstances to guarantee our salvation.

 

[PHart]

WILL PRODUCE GOOD WORKS AND WALK IN OBEDIENCE,
has nothing to do with GETTING SAVED,

Right works have nothing to do with EARNING salvation. But they have everything to do with whether you will go to the left or to the right at the Judgment. You have read Matthew 25:31-46, haven't you?

Read it, and then come back and tell us which people went to the right and into eternal life, those with works or those without? And if you can't accept the obvious, please show us in the passage where those who did not have works of love for Christ went to the right, okay?

IT IS WHAT YOU WILL DO BECAUSE YOU LOVE HIM,
AFTER YOU ARE GENUINELY SAVED.
HE changes your spiritual being TO WANT TO DO THOSE THINGS.

Don't you see in your own words THAT MAKES WORKS REQUIRED? You yourself are saying if you are saved you HAVE to have works to be saved. But for some reason when we say works are required you all shout 'works gospel, works gospel!', but when you say it it's the gospel of grace.

Is any of this ever going to get through that rock hard head, please LORD?

Seriously, I know you can't see it, but you are the one with the hard, indoctrinated skull cap. Seriously.

No one here is saying works earn salvation. We agree with you that they are required BECAUSE WORKS ARE WHAT SAVED PEOPLE DO. They don't earn salvation, they prove you have been justified apart from works. They are the evidence Christ will look for in order to determine if you will be saved or condemned on the Day of His Judgment. That is the sense in which they are required in order to be saved. Soften up and let Matthew 25:31-46 sink in that hard, indoctrinated head of your's, lol.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are only focusing on sealed and unsealed.

Salvation is not just being sealed.

It is the indwelling of the HS in us.

It is us living in Him and Him in us.

It is relying on His promise of Him never leaving us.

Never is an absolute.

He doesn't say one thing, and then do another.

If He never leaves how will He break the seal?

Our eternal security is based on the creator of the universe keeping us, not us maintaining a "satisfactory" set of circumstances to guarantee our salvation.

His fight against calvanism has him not thinking correctly

Then he will say he is not trying to earn salvation, when he admits, if he does not do what he is told. God will remove the seal. That is exactly what earning salvation is.

 

[Limey410v2]

His fight against calvanism has him not thinking correctly

Then he will say he is not trying to earn salvation, when he admits, if he does not do what he is told. God will remove the seal. That is exactly what earning salvation is.

Anyone can fight against any ism they want, it doesn't matter, God does not have an ism in His name, the character of God is true.

 

[dcontroversal]

You are only focusing on sealed and unsealed.

Salvation is not just being sealed.

It is the indwelling of the HS in us.

It is us living in Him and Him in us.

It is relying on His promise of Him never leaving us.

Never is an absolute.

He doesn't say one thing, and then do another.

If He never leaves how will He break the seal?

Our eternal security is based on the creator of the universe keeping us, not us maintaining a "satisfactory" set of circumstances to guarantee our salvation.

AMEN and so true......it is all JESUS, his promises, his power, his work, his gift, his grace, his mercy, his justification, his righteousness imputed, his mediation, his sealing by the Spirit, his sacrifice, his faithfulness, his Everything....ALL glory goes to God.......

 

[dcontroversal]

His fight against calvanism has him not thinking correctly

Then he will say he is not trying to earn salvation, when he admits, if he does not do what he is told. God will remove the seal. That is exactly what earning salvation is.

Anyone whose dogma goes beyond faith thru grace to the I MUST grouping is teaching, pushing a works based false dogma.....

 

[PHart]

It is relying on His promise of Him never leaving us.

That's what I've been saying, lol.

You have to continue to trust in Him to the very end to be saved in the very end. But if stop trusting you lose Christ's sacrifice that keeps you from paying your own penalty for sinning. You lose the protection of the seal of the Holy Spirit that only believing people possess and you will become subject to Judgment.

Never is an absolute.

He doesn't say one thing, and then do another.

If He never leaves how will He break the seal?

This is where 'I will never leave nor forsake you' comes from in the Bible:

"8The Lord himself goes before you and will be with you; he will never leave you nor forsake you.”" (Deuteronomy 31:8 NASB)

Now look what OSASer's leave out that God also said in the same passage about him never leaving nor forsaking his people:

"They will forsake me and break the covenant I made with them. 17And in that day I will become angry with them and forsake them; I will hide my face from them, and they will be destroyed. Many disasters and calamities will come on them, and in that day they will ask, ‘Have not these disasters come on us because our God is not with us?’ 18And I will certainly hide my face in that day because of all their wickedness in turning to other gods." (Deuteronomy 31:16-18 NASB)


Think before you respond. I think I know what you'll want to say. But consider this, is the New Covenant a license to worship other gods such that God will not forsake us for doing that? Is grace a license to turn from God in the worship of other gods? No. Grace is not a license to turn to other gods and still be saved no matter what.

Notice in the passage that the encouragement that God will never leave nor forsake us is given so we'll lean in hard in obedience to Him, not so we can take some misguided comfort in not doing what he says and we'll still be saved.

Our eternal security is based on the creator of the universe keeping us, not us maintaining a "satisfactory" set of circumstances to guarantee our salvation.

You had to keep the condition of believing to be saved. How is that not a 'circumstance' upon which the guarantee is conditioned?

What the promise is not conditioned on is works. Believing is not included in the works that can not justify in Paul's 'faith vs. works' sermon. But for some reason the church has concluded that if you have to believe to be saved that's you doing something, therefore, you're trying to save yourself. That's absurd.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Anyone can fight against any ism they want, it doesn't matter, God does not have an ism in His name, the character of God is true.

Amen, thats why so many get in trouble. They fight an ism, then when people talk. They are blinded by their fight against th4e SIM, and thus can not see what people are actually saying. Or just plain blind by their hatred for one ISM that they can not see what it is they are actually believeing, But willingly do it because the ends justify the means (attacking the ISm they hate)

 

[PHart]

Anyone whose dogma goes beyond faith thru grace to the I MUST grouping is teaching, pushing a works based false dogma.....

Here, this is for you too, then:

You had to keep the condition of believing to be saved. How is that not a 'circumstance' upon which the guarantee is conditioned?

What the promise is not conditioned on is works. Believing is not included in the works that can not justify in Paul's 'faith vs. works' sermon. But for some reason the church has concluded that if you have to believe to be saved that's you doing something, therefore, you're trying to save yourself. That's absurd.

Believing has NEVER been on the side of the works that if you do them to be saved you're trying to earn your own salvation. But if I missed that somewhere in the Bible, by all means show me and I will admit my error.

 

[Limey410v2]

AMEN and so true......it is all JESUS, his promises, his power, his work, his gift, his grace, his mercy, his justification, his righteousness imputed, his mediation, his sealing by the Spirit, his sacrifice, his faithfulness, his Everything....ALL glory goes to God.......

Yes, it truly is about Him.

He served us with His act of sacrifice and gave us our free gift, our inheritance. HIM! A life with Him!!

From that moment, of us accepting His salvation, to eternity.

Our act is surrender. When I finally surrendered to all of the above I finally found true rest, true peace. Thank God for His grace and mercy.