Not By Works
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Okay, good. Finally someone who can see the difference between being faithless and denying Christ. I've tried several times in the last few years to point this out with no one being able to comprehend the fact that, obviously, being faithless and denying Christ HAVE to be two different things because they have two different outcomes:
"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:12-13 NASB)
The outcome of disowning Christ is He will disown you (for you no longer belong to him that he should have some obligation to you as part of his body to keep you). In contrast, what he remains faithful to us in despite our unfaithfulness is in regard to our struggle as believers who have not disowned him in unbelief, but who struggle in living faithfully for Him within our trust in him for salvation.
You're the only one that I know of in these kinds of threads who has been able to see this difference plainly spelled out in this passage.
"If we disown him,he will also disown us;13if we are faithless,he remains faithful,for he cannot disown himself." (2 Timothy 2:12-13 NASB)
The outcome of disowning Christ is He will disown you (for you no longer belong to him that he should have some obligation to you as part of his body to keep you). In contrast, what he remains faithful to us in despite our unfaithfulness is in regard to our struggle as believers who have not disowned him in unbelief, but who struggle in living faithfully for Him within our trust in him for salvation.
You're the only one that I know of in these kinds of threads who has been able to see this difference plainly spelled out in this passage.
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I take it you are saying in a round-a-bout way that you are not a Calvinist who believes God makes people ahead of time to be either a believer or an unbeliever. So, if this is true that you are not a Calvinist that way, tell me why was your believing that you did not a work of you trying to save yourself but the believing I did and am still doing in order to be saved is?
I do not believe I am stronger than Jesus either. I just believe he gives me the freedom to decide to love him or not.
That I do. And that is certainly not the equivalent of being stronger than Jesus. That is a loving God who does not force people to love and obey him but gives them the choice to love Him and his righteousness.
I do not believe I am stronger than Jesus either. I just believe he gives me the freedom to decide to love him or not.
That I do. And that is certainly not the equivalent of being stronger than Jesus. That is a loving God who does not force people to love and obey him but gives them the choice to love Him and his righteousness.
2Ti 2:1 Thou, therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
first thought.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead, according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 in which I suffer trouble, like unto an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
second thought. Paul is being persecuted and Timothy is hearing of it. Paul comforts, admonishes.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore, I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the saving health which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
This is Paul speaking. A father in the faith, to a fold. Many.
How to go through persecution.
2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful word: That if we are dead with him, we shall also live with him;
the goal, we keep in mind.
2Ti 2:12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
the reward..
2Ti 2:13 if we are unfaithful, yet he remains faithful; he cannot deny himself.
saved, but as by fire. No rewards?
first thought.
2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead, according to my gospel,
2Ti 2:9 in which I suffer trouble, like unto an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
second thought. Paul is being persecuted and Timothy is hearing of it. Paul comforts, admonishes.
2Ti 2:10 Therefore, I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they may also obtain the saving health which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
This is Paul speaking. A father in the faith, to a fold. Many.
How to go through persecution.
2Ti 2:11 This is a faithful word: That if we are dead with him, we shall also live with him;
the goal, we keep in mind.
2Ti 2:12 if we suffer, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
the reward..
2Ti 2:13 if we are unfaithful, yet he remains faithful; he cannot deny himself.
saved, but as by fire. No rewards?
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I suppose if a believer's unfaithfulness is them not having led anybody to Christ, and, therefore, they do not have anybody on the other side of the Judgment to be a reward for them, then yes, it could be talking about that. But that is still clearly distinguished from denying Christ, for which Christ will deny you.
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Deuteronomy 15:7-8 is a NEW law? Interesting. What was really interesting was you ridiculing me for saying Deuteronomy 15:7-8 was a law of generosity. DEUTERONOMY 15:7-8....get it? It's the law, lol. Read it...then tell me it's not a lawful command to be generous:
"7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NASB)
"7If anyone is poor among your fellow Israelites in any of the towns of the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not be hardhearted or tightfisted toward them. 8Rather, be openhanded and freely lend them whatever they need. 9Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought: “The seventh year, the year for canceling debts, is near,” so that you do not show ill will toward the needy among your fellow Israelites and give them nothing. They may then appeal to the Lord against you, and you will be found guilty of sin. 10Give generously to them and do so without a grudging heart; then because of this the Lord your God will bless you in all your work and in everything you put your hand to. 11There will always be poor people in the land. Therefore I command you to be openhanded toward your fellow Israelites who are poor and needy in your land." (Deuteronomy 15:7-11 NASB)
the question i have is whether "be openhanded and freely lend" is the same as "sell everything you have and give to the poor"
((also why does the 'christian right' voting bloc seem to be adamantly politically opposed to doing anything moderately close to this, but that's a whole other thread no one wants to post in))
((also why does the 'christian right' voting bloc seem to be adamantly politically opposed to doing anything moderately close to this, but that's a whole other thread no one wants to post in))
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Obviously that would be the motivation for him not having kept the command to be generous. But in context we can see that the issue is the keeping of God's commands. Jesus is pointing out to him in a somewhat round-a-bout fashion, which He was good at doing, that he was not the law keeper he thought he was. And that to enter into eternal life he would have to fulfill that law, too, in order to have eternal life. Not to earn eternal life, but as the expected and obligatory outcome of faith in the promise. Understand?
WRONG AGAIN about the Calvinist point of view. GOD CHOSE before foundation of the world those who would CHOOSE to LOVE HIM, and even wrote their names in the Lamb's Book of Life, before He formed the world. You have bought a lot of Armenian hogwash about what Calvinists believe. How about you start listening to what we got to say about our beliefs and trashcan what your past teachers told you we believe.
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I think it's because he's addressing this particular individual regarding that, not every person.
Don't get me started on the hypocrisy and deceit of the 'righteous right' in American politics, lol. I fell for their garbage until I realized their real agenda. But don't assume I'm a liberal either. They're hypocritical and deceitful in regard to their agenda.
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is He ever surprised by anyone's decision? 