GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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You are being ridiculous. It is and was a shadow
So you do not give the proper meat or drink offerings,
mentioned in Col. 2:16 ? Thats not good to here if you do not.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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Col. 2:17 a shadow
[SUP] of things to come[future tence][/SUP][SUP][/SUP]
We can talk about Greek text and its tenses if you like.

But you cannot change that nobody can judge us NOW about not keeping the Sabbath day, its clear even in English.
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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We can talk about Greek text and its tenses if you like.

But you cannot change that nobody can judge us NOW about not keeping the Sabbath day,
its clear even in English.
this could go both ways


But you cannot change that nobody can judge us NOW about keeping the Sabbath days,
its clear even in English
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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this could go both ways


But you cannot change that nobody can judge us NOW about keeping the Sabbath days,
its clear even in English
Probably not based on this one verse. But your inclination to old laws and judaism can be proved wrong by many other places, mainly in Galatians and Hebrews.
 
Mar 28, 2016
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So you do not give the proper meat or drink offerings,
mentioned in Col. 2:16 ? Thats not good to here if you do not.
Its a ceremonial law to be used in ceremonies that speak of the suffering of Christ beforehand. Not a moral law that governs the world.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Signified, denotes using the things seen to represent the things not seen (the faith principle) used in all parable .Hiding the spiritul meaning from natural man called an evil generation . They seek to believe after a sign and not what it represents.

Offering shadows of the gospel is what they did we can see that I believe in the parable below. .

The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure (parable) for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.Heb 9:8

The reformation came the shadows disappeared..
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Probably not based on this one verse.
But your inclination to old laws and judaism can be proved wrong
by many other places, mainly in Galatians and Hebrews.
What does the bible say about this, should we do as Paul did?


1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to
call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.

(Acts 23:6) Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees,
called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.
I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."

2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him.

(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

3. Paul called God's law holy.

(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy,
righteous and good.

4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means!
Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84
times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue,
and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.

8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this,
and said he does live according to the law.

(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call
a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law
and written in the Prophets,

10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded"
and hostile to God.

(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days
after joining the church.

(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that
cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.

(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority?
Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses:
“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God
is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us,
because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness,
and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness,

14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God
even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,
and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests
who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says
"you are not under law but under grace".

Millions of people quote this scripture, they almost always leave out the scripture
that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under
the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law
but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to
someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are
slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing
God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come".

Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's
sacrifice on the cross.(Colossians 2:16-17)

17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded
new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law,
instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 2:16) Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith
in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by
faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law,
were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul
had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

(Galatians 4: 8-11) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those
who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God
—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish
to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months
and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

- those weak and miserable forces where not Gods convocation

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation.
Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind,
and causes you to walk in them.(Hebrews 10:16)

(Hebrews 10:16) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,
says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant
and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you
may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
We can talk about Greek text and its tenses if you like.

But you cannot change that nobody can judge us NOW about not keeping the Sabbath day, its clear even in English.
How would a person judge a shadow? It can go two ways depending on where the light comes from.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
What does the bible say about this, should we do as Paul did?


1. Paul was a Pharisee. A teacher of God's law. He continued to
call himself a Pharisee even after joining the church.

(Acts 23:6) Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees,
called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, descended from Pharisees.
I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead."

2. Paul loved God's law. It was a delight to him.

(Romans 7:22) For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being,

3. Paul called God's law holy.

(Romans 7:12) So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy,
righteous and good.

4. Paul knew that breaking God's law is the very definition of sin.

(1 John 3:4) Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law:
for sin is the transgression of the law.

5. Paul said that we don't nullify the law of God by our faith in Jesus Christ.

(Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith? By no means!
Rather we uphold the law.

6. Paul often read from the scriptures on the sabbath (which is kept by the apostles 84
times in the book of Acts). And the only scriptures at that time was the old testament.

(Acts 17:2) As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue,
and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.

7. Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses when he first joined the church.
(And ironically, he's still being accused today.)

(Act 21:21) They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among
the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children
or live according to our customs.

8. These accusations were shown to be false.

(Acts 21:24) Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses,
so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everyone will know there is no truth
in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.

9. When Paul was accused of forsaking the law of Moses, he always denied this,
and said he does live according to the law.

(Acts 24:14) But this I confess to you, that according to the Way, which they call
a sect, I worship the God of our fathers, believing everything laid down by the Law
and written in the Prophets,

10. Paul said that those who refuse to submit to the law are "carnal minded"
and hostile to God.

(Romans 8:7-8) The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit
to God's law, nor can it do so. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

11. Paul continued to travel to Jerusalem to celebrate God's feast days
after joining the church.

(Acts 18:21) But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that
cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

12. Paul often quoted from Moses's writings, and cited it as authority.

(1 Corinthians 9:9-10) Do I say this merely on human authority?
Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses:
“Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God
is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us,
because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest.

13. Paul claimed that ALL scripture is good for instruction in righteousness,
and given through inspiration of God. He never singled out Moses' writings.

(2 Timothy 3:16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking,
correcting and training in righteousness,

14. Paul mentions that the levitical priests are still offering sacrifices to God
even after Christ's death on the cross.

(Hebrews 8:3-4) Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices,
and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer.

If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests
who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

15. The most well known teaching in Paul's letters is the one where he says
"you are not under law but under grace".

Millions of people quote this scripture, they almost always leave out the scripture
that immediately follows it. Watch what happens when you add the context....

(Romans 6:14-16) For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under
the law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law
but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to
someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey--whether you are
slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

16. Paul told the Colossians not to let anyone judge them because they were observing
God's sabbaths and feasts because these appointed times are "a shadow of things to come".

Meaning they reveal future events, just like the passover foreshadowed Christ's
sacrifice on the cross.(Colossians 2:16-17)

17. Paul never repremanded anyone for obeying God's law. Instead, he repremanded
new gentile converts, the Galatians, who were trying to be justified by the law,
instead of faith in Jesus Christ.

(Galatians 2:16) Know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith
in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by
faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

18. The Galatians, who Paul was repremanding for trying to be justified by the law,
were going back to serving other gods after they were circumcised. This is why Paul
had to explain that the works of the law can't earn your salvation.

(Galatians 4: 8-11) Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those
who by nature are not gods. But now that you know God—or rather are known by God
—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable forces? Do you wish
to be enslaved by them all over again? 10 You are observing special days and months
and seasons and years! I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.

- those weak and miserable forces where not Gods convocation

19. Paul understood that obedience to God's law is a natural result of salvation.
Once you become a true christian, God writes His law on your heart and mind,
and causes you to walk in them.(Hebrews 10:16)

(Hebrews 10:16) "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time,
says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

20. Paul's letters come with a warning label attached to them.

(2 Peter 3:16-17) He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these
matters.His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant
and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you
may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
Paul's past was irrelevant even to him. What he mentions about his past is just for historical facts or for proving that if somebody wants to be Jew, he is (because of his past) even more Jewish and still it is useless to him.

"...circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.
But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ."

Philippians 3:5-7
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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Actualy the new testement tells us to give the proper meat or drink offerings.
Eating and drinking used in parables I would think need to be defined as to its spiritual applications..

For instance Christ used eating food the disciples knew not of (the hidden manna) to express doing the will of the father.

Defining the Christians free will according to our new faith of Christ called the hearing of faith (his) . It can I believe also be used to speak of the ceremonial fast as the kind of fast the disciples knew not of (bring the gospel as the will of God ) which again is doing the will of Him not seen, as a imputed righteousness, as something Christ worked for giving it freely to to us to work out .

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Phi 2:13

That I would suggest as a new creation it is proper meat or drink offerings ...the fruit of our lips the gospel of our salvation. Neither can we use them as a source of salvation.

Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.

Hebrews 13:15 By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name.

Some ceremonial laws are still in effect but again as shadows they cannot make ones conscience perfect /complete and therefore we cannot judge shadows.
 
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prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Paul's past was irrelevant even to him.
What he mentions about his past is just for historical facts
So when Paul says in (Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith?
By no means! Rather we uphold the law.


this irrelevant and just history?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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So when Paul says in (Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith?
By no means! Rather we uphold the law.


this irrelevant and just history?
In the context, Paul is talking about righteousness given apart from Law by faith. Read the chapter.

Does this faith nulify the Law? Of course not, because the opposite is true - when we say that we are made righteous by faith without the Law, we approve that Law cannot be kept perfectly to save us.

----

That Law´s commandments are not for Christians to observe anymore is a different topic, for example here:

"For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. "
Eph 2:15
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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So when Paul says in (Romans 3:31) Do we nullify the law by this faith?
By no means! Rather we uphold the law.


this irrelevant and just history?
But how do we uphold the Law?. By turning from the Law and believing in Jesus because the Law can only condemn us.. Once the Law has done that it has finished its job.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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And also, Paul is talking to Jews in Roman church.

Not to us, we have never been given the Law, only conscience.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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And also, Paul is talking to Jews in Roman church.

Not to us, we have never been given the Law, only conscience.
Never knew in the heart meant to ignore...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”[/FONT]


Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”


Scripture says different since the beginnging;

Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

1 Yahanan /John 2:3-7, “And by this we know that we know Him, if we guard His commands. The one who says, “I know Him,” and does not guard His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever guards His Word, truly the love of Yah has been perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who says he stays in Him ought himself also to walk, even as He walked. Beloved, I write no fresh command to you, but an old command which you have had from the beginning. The old command is the Word which you heard from the beginning.”


Isaiah 56:1-7, “Thus said יהוה, “Guard right-ruling, and do righteousness, for near is My deliverance to come, and My righteousness to be revealed. Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who becomes strong in it, guarding the Sabbath lest he profane it, and guarding his hand from doing any evil. And let not the son of the gentile who has joined himself to יהוה speak, saying, ‘יהוה has certainly separated me from His people,’ nor let the eunuch say, ‘Look I am a dry tree.’ For thus said יהוה, “To the eunuchs who guard My Sabbaths, and have chosen what pleases Me, and are holding onto My covenant: to them I shall give in My house and within My walls a place and a name better than that of sons and daughters – I give them an everlasting name that is not cut off. Also the sons of the gentile who join themselves to יהוה, to serve Him, and to love the Name of יהוה, to be His servants, all who guard the Sabbath, and not profane it, and are holding onto My covenant, them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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But how do we uphold the Law?.
So I asked you before , do you give the proper meat or drink offerings,
mentioned in Col. 2:16?


And also, Paul is talking to Jews in Roman church.

Not to us, we have never been given the Law, only conscience.
I'll ask Trofimus the same question.


So do you give the proper meat or drink offerings,
mentioned in Col. 2:16?
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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Never knew in the heart meant to ignore...

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”

This is a pretty big assumption if you think this refers to the 10 commandments.

Did God write the ministration of Condemnation and Death on our hearts and minds??

2 Corinthians 3:7-9
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.



After God writes the ministration of Death and Condemnation on our hearts and minds does He then go back and erase them in Christ??

Romans 8:1-2
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If God does not repent of His Gifts or His Call (Romans 11:29) How can He free us from the law of sin and death if it is written on our hearts and mind??

Something is very wrong with the assumption that it is the 10 commandments that are written on the heart and mind. That doesn't really bother anyone who wants to work at the 10 commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:5-6
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

What God writes on our hearts and mind must not be the letter of the law but the Spirit. Because God did not come to kill but to give Life.

John 10:9-10
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

So what is this Spirit that God Writes on our hearts and minds, that simultaneously frees us from the letter of the law (Death and Condemnation) and establishes His Law by Faith?

Galatians 5:22-25
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Let us also walk in the Spirit? Walk in Love, Joy, Peace... all the things that are written on our hearts and minds... Caused to walk in His Statutes, which are Love, Joy, Peace...


But if this is true then we are no longer under the 10 commandments. How will we be able to establish our Righteousness before men??

Romans 9:31-33
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

When we come to Christ this is all pretty basic stuff. Because why did we come to Christ to begin with? To get help with the Condemnation and Death that is contained in the letter of the Law written on stones...[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
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Who are you to judge us? We celebrate the Lord's Supper.


So who said anything about judging you? I asked a question.

also the Lord's Supper is the [passover observence]
falls under COL 2:14-17