Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
6
0
Its strange, but some figure if they clean the outside of the cup they don't commit sin. If they obey the law that man can see them obey they don't commit sin.
Paul knew that wasn't the case. He said he was condemned by the law because he was full of all manner of concupiscence. I'm sure saul the Pharisee did not have affairs with women. But, he knew if he could not obey the law relating to the inner man he was a sinner condemned by the law:
Thou shalt not covet/thou shalt not lust/though shalt not have impure thoughts, for example.
Its amazing, some believe they have no sin in them, whilst having impure thoughts. For many dumb the law of God down from the pristine level it is set at to a place they believe they faultlessly obey it/don't commit sin.
John summed it up well:
If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us
1John1:8
Oh man!
Just when I thought you were on the holiness team you go and write that.
Paul was referring to his days before conversion, (in the flesh), but not after his conversion.
His flesh had been crucified with Christ, and buried. (Rom 6:3-6)
What does the next verse say?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin".

John, is writing about two different kinds of "walk", One in he darkness, which Pro.4:9 says is sin;, and the other in the light, which is God.
There is no sin in God.
If you are walking in darkness you cannot say "I have no sin".
But verses 7 and 9 make it clear that ALL our past sins-unrighteousness CAN be washed away by the blood of Christ.
Only a false repentance from sin can accommodate more sinning.
You can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.
 

PJW

Banned
Oct 6, 2017
859
6
0
Read back through the thread others were discussing this problem and they seemed to have found a fix . I only scanned those posts but I think someone was able to stop it from happening to them .
Blessings
Bill
Thanks for the heads-up.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 10:27-30, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; neither will any man snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who gave them to Me, is greater than all; and no man is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand: I and My Father are in accord."[/FONT]
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Please describe a "moral frailty".

If He didn't, He was a poor example for us to follow.
"Jesus wept."
Sounds pretty human to me.
He hungered, He bled, He loved, He tired, He thirsted, He forgave, He suffered, He lamented.
Characteristics of something besides human?
How did I miss this?
A poor example to follow? That just revealed a lot about your relationship with the Lord. When we are baptized into His body, we become one with Him. We don't follow examples, we follow His leading. Examples is to be separated from Him. We are baptized into His Holiness, His innocence, His death and resurrection life.

How can anyone partake of His life unless one with Him?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
Oh man!
Just when I thought you were on the holiness team you go and write that.
Paul was referring to his days before conversion, (in the flesh), but not after his conversion.
His flesh had been crucified with Christ, and buried. (Rom 6:3-6)
What does the next verse say?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin".

John, is writing about two different kinds of "walk", One in he darkness, which Pro.4:9 says is sin;, and the other in the light, which is God.
There is no sin in God.
If you are walking in darkness you cannot say "I have no sin".
But verses 7 and 9 make it clear that ALL our past sins-unrighteousness CAN be washed away by the blood of Christ.
Only a false repentance from sin can accommodate more sinning.
You can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.
Team? When did Jesus divide His body into teams? That came from another sinless perfectionist from that other forum. In your own words, you can't forge a relationship with God based on a lie.
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,137
216
63
Team holiness? there is a believer or an unbeliever..

The Believer is given the Holy Spirit by the Grace of GOD through Faith in the Messiah.


Believers are to provoke and encourage each other to labour in love..

Believers are to be an example to all... unbelievers alike for the Glory of GOD so they may come to believe and be saved through Faith in the Messiah by our Gracious GOD.


If we declare our sinless walk.. rather than declare our saving Faith in He whom Truly walked sinless without blame the Perfect offering to save we sinners... then are we above our Master? I think not whatsoever.. because no one is saved by believing we are without sin.. and let us not judge ourselves.. would it not be so to humble and strive toward the finish line and receive the prize at the Kings judgement?




Share the Gospel Give Hope and Light to those lost in the darkness... but judge not yourself without sin.. make it not about yourself.. but about the Lord our Saviour who will restore and guide His flock Home.. the flock are to Believe and the power of GOD will keep them.. yes.. GOD leads us on the path of Righteousness.. but it is the Good Shepherd that leads and it is the Good Shepherd that will judge His flock.


We each start the day with the desire to be Christ like.. to not sin but to Love GOD and each other as thyself above all else... that is where we set our heart to obey... yet it is GOD’s Love and power that allows us even to love and desire to do good without Christ we be dead in our tresspasses.. not born again of the incorruptible seed..

that special gifted seed when received needs water and GOD gives increase to those thirsty and drinking the water given freely... you know where to find this water.

Anyhow.. this divide needs to stop and us all unite.. share, love and encourage for the perfecting of the saints... for GOD to be Glorified through us in Christ our Lord and Saviour... attribute all to the Messiah your Lord... whom you love.. declare your love and humble yourself to the lowest seat...


Ephesians 4


4 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,



6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;




12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:




14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.



17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.



20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.



26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
27 Neither give place to the devil.
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.




 
Last edited:
R

Romans614

Guest
Oh man!
Just when I thought you were on the holiness team you go and write that.
Paul was referring to his days before conversion, (in the flesh), but not after his conversion.
His flesh had been crucified with Christ, and buried. (Rom 6:3-6)
What does the next verse say?
"For he that is dead is freed from sin".

John, is writing about two different kinds of "walk", One in he darkness, which Pro.4:9 says is sin;, and the other in the light, which is God.
There is no sin in God.
If you are walking in darkness you cannot say "I have no sin".
But verses 7 and 9 make it clear that ALL our past sins-unrighteousness CAN be washed away by the blood of Christ.
Only a false repentance from sin can accommodate more sinning.
You can't forge a relationship with God that is based on a lie.
As you are aware:

The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge youMatt7:2

Therefore, on judgement day, if you have committed any sin, since you have been telling others you cannot have the seal/Holy Spirit if you commit any sin, you must stand condemned mustnt you.
Of course, it is your absolute right to wish to be judged on that basis if you want to be, I wouldn't myself
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
Faith cometh by hearing, so they must hear about and turn to God.
Your scenario makes it look like it is God's fault if a man sins because the Spirit never brought the repentance-faith.

Though I agree with that statement, (based on Heb 10:39), I can't remember Jesus ever saying such a thing.
Have you a scripture in mind?
[/QUOTE]

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

John 16:9
9 The world’s sin is that it refuses to believe in me.

Ps it’s mans fault if they sin
 
Last edited:

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,460
13,399
113
58
I could exhort you to do the same thing.
Obedience-vs-self righteousness: which if different than obedience...must be disobedience.
I am glad you came to this conclusion on your own.
May the Lord continue to guide you into all righteousness.
Self righteousness (which stems from pride, is sin) and is disobedience. 1 John 1:8 - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Thus, the man who claims sinless perfection in the flesh is a hypocrite.

1 John 1:8. Profession of sinlessness-self deception-not of truth-equals living a lie.

1 John 1:9. No confession of sin-Divine cleansing is denied-no removal of condemnation.

1 John 1:10. Denying we have sinned, means we are calling God a LIAR, and His truth does not reside in us.

May the Lord convict your heart of this delusional false doctrine of sinless perfection of the flesh and guide you to the truth.
 
Oct 16, 2017
90
2
0
Its strange, but a lot of people quote John 14:15 who do not even try and obey each and every literal command of Christ.
It seems to me, that would be insisting of others what one does not demand of oneself. That would not be loving others would it. And if we don't love others we cannot fulfil the law of Christ/obey his commands:

Carry each others burdens(love them) and so fulfill the law of Christ Gal6:2
You used the word Try.
We try.
Only Jesus kept all the commands. I'm reading here that some are saying we don't have to but we'll still be saved. I may be wrong about this but it's what it sounds like.
 
R

Romans614

Guest
You used the word Try.
We try.
Only Jesus kept all the commands. I'm reading here that some are saying we don't have to but we'll still be saved. I may be wrong about this but it's what it sounds like.
So we don't have to obey each and every literal command of Christ in order to show we love him?

I have been to various churches for over forty years and met not one person who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ
 
Oct 16, 2017
90
2
0
So we don't have to obey each and every literal command of Christ in order to show we love him?

I have been to various churches for over forty years and met not one person who has even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ
Well of course we have to try. We can't go around just breaking commandments, can we?
This doesn't mean that we won't. We're only human and very fragile beings. Because we don't doesn't mean that we lose salvation. But maybe if we sin enough it makes us become unfriendly toward God and then we become His enemy. Like before we were saved?
 
R

Romans614

Guest
Well of course we have to try. We can't go around just breaking commandments, can we?
This doesn't mean that we won't. We're only human and very fragile beings. Because we don't doesn't mean that we lose salvation. But maybe if we sin enough it makes us become unfriendly toward God and then we become His enemy. Like before we were saved?
So how do you get on with not inviting friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven?
Do you always ob ey that command, sometimes or never?

If you fast(if) you do make sure no one knows you are fasting don't you?

If anyone stole anything of yours, you would offer them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them wouldn't you?

If anyone wanted to lend from you, you would gladly give to them without ever expecting anything back, wouldn't you? Do you always obey that command?

If you are persecuted/maligned, do you always leap for joy? Or do you have trouble obeying that command?
 
Oct 16, 2017
90
2
0
So how do you get on with not inviting friends and family home for a meal, but rather the poor, lame blind and beggars so you may receive your reward in heaven?
Do you always ob ey that command, sometimes or never?

If you fast(if) you do make sure no one knows you are fasting don't you?

If anyone stole anything of yours, you would offer them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them wouldn't you?

If anyone wanted to lend from you, you would gladly give to them without ever expecting anything back, wouldn't you? Do you always obey that command?

If you are persecuted/maligned, do you always leap for joy? Or do you have trouble obeying that command?
Are you saying that if I don't do the above I'm lost?
I don't understand.
 
R

Romans614

Guest
Are you saying that if I don't do the above I'm lost?
I don't understand.
Well you said we must try and obey Christs commands. I just wondered how you got on trying to obey those commands mentioned.

And you did quote:

If you love me obey my commands
 
Oct 16, 2017
90
2
0
Well you said we must try and obey Christs commands. I just wondered how you got on trying to obey those commands mentioned.

And you did quote:

If you love me obey my commands
Yes. If we love Jesus we will obey His commands.
YOU used the word "try" and I agreed with you.
I said that only Jesus obeyed each and every command.
Don't you understand the difference between trying and actually doing something?

I said that I was reading through and it sounded like some were saying that we don't have to obey commands Jesus left us.
That's a whole different idea. Seems we don't understand each other...it's ok.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I believe the bible for what it says. Not adding or subtracting or suggesting. It very clearly stated
Impossible to fall away and be renewed again. It does not say impossible to fall away.
Maturity takes the bible for what it says.
Funny, cause your doing the bolded by rejecting the context to hang your false point on it.....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I agree that there was the "original" sin, and it introduced death to the world, but "death" is not sin.
I never committed a sin till I was about six years old.
To die before that sin, would have precluded me from the lake of fire.
Another thread perhaps?
Do you even know the bible.......it seems the answer is no.......David who was inspired and described as a man after God's own heart stated the following....you should take time off and sit down and learn the truth and then come post.

Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I guess you walk in light and in darkness?

If your misinterpretation of 1 John 1:8 is true, then verses 7 and 9 are lies.
They say ALL our sins, unrighteousness CAN be washed away.

Only a false repentance from sin would accommodate more sin thereafter.
You can say your sinless all you want and all it does is prove that you don't know what your talking about...and we have already proven in this very thread that you have sinned openly numerous times...how can one be that delusional.....deceived is the word....exactly as John states....deceived and no truth......the epitome of verse 8 <--PJW