Not By Works

[PJW]

Hi Posthuman, I am as concerned about this as much as you are. I do not think it is healthy spiritually to entertain a heretical doctrine here day after day and do nothing about it. When enough has been said and no change is coming anytime soon, put the person on ignore and let the Moderator's do the rest.
Or sadly to say you can, *not*
Become one of the "ilk", like this one;

Better a sheep than a goat.
I have delivered nothing unbiblical or offensive to God.
In fact, Paul wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
Peter wrote..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
John wrote..."We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)
Your opportunity to stand with them is today.
Please don't fight against obedience to God.

 

[PJW]

Obedience


Luke 14:8-11

"When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, 'Give your place to this person,' and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, 'Friend, move up higher.' Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Are you saying that the folks who disobey God have humbled themselves before God?

 

[PJW]

PJW, a sign that someone is involved in cult, is they WILL NOT LISTEN, or WILL NOT READ THOROUGHLY, what someone else has written to biblically support his disagreement with you. I know Posthuman well enough to know he did not say anything like what you JUST ACCUSED HIM OF. Therefore, I have to conclude you are exhibiting, the characteristics of belonging to a puedo-christian cult.

He posited that all men sin. and when shown that Jesus didn't sin and the POV was shown false, replied thusly.
I don't think he is involved with a cult, but until he realizes that sinners are not in Christ, stands to experience a great terror on the last day.
He is in my prayers.

 

[posthuman]

Philippians 3:8-12
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith-- that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.

 

[posthuman]

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15

If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

Why does scripture call the disobedient believer "brother" ?

 

[posthuman]

A clue:


Romans 4:4-5

Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness



Praise God!!

 

[VCO]

He posited that all men sin. and when shown that Jesus didn't sin and the POV was shown false, replied thusly.
I don't think he is involved with a cult, but until he realizes that sinners are not in Christ, stands to experience a great terror on the last day.
He is in my prayers.

NO, IT IS YOUR OPINION THAT HE WAS REFERRING TO JESUS TOO, WHICH HE DID NOT MEAN, THAT GIVES ME REASON TO SEE YOU AS YOU ACTING LIKE A CULT MEMBER. Mormons and JWs are famous for those kind of twisted misunderstandings and innuendos.

 

[posthuman]

*sigh* so many things wrong here =[

He posited that all men sin.

not "posited" -- quoted ((scripture))

and when shown that Jesus didn't sin

not shown by you or in the space of time you reference at all. not ever in question. not even relevant; a diversionary accusation of blasphemy out of thin air. i've been declaring the spotless Lamb for a period of time greater than the length of our acquaintance

the POV was shown false,

the POV that Romans 3, v.23 in particular refers to God, not to man, is obviously false, but it's the POV you keep running with

replied thusly.

also thisly

I don't think he is involved with a cult

the LORD knows the thoughts of man, that they are worthless ((Psalm 94:11))

until he realizes that sinners are not in Christ

if we say we are without sin we deceiveourselves and the truth is not in us

take the lowest seat at the table

stands to experience a great terror on the last day.

i'm actually eternally grateful to stand at all - and the LORD is not a terror, but all who do not believe that He is will have 'the terrible one' for a bedfellow. they will cry, 'lord, lord? did we not . . ?'

He is in my prayers.

pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly

do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets

take the lowest seat at the table

you likewise, should say 'we are only unworthy servants'

 

[posthuman]

take the lowest seat at the table

it's the beggars and mendicants who are invited to the banquet. so many who appeared outwardly, or by position to be worthy of the guest list made excuses! who has not fallen short in reconciliation with this command: take the lowest seat? how do you do that perfectly?
((how high is your view of holiness? < ∞?))

hey, what if you are the last to arrive - and everyone else took the lowest seats, from the bottom up - then taking the lowest seat is taking the highest? 'the last shall be first'
but the Lord of Hosts is sovereign, and the first shall be last - the one who exalts himself is humbled.

one thing that has always amazed me about His loyal love - 'the least in the kingdom of heaven' is still in the kingdom of heaven - born again, not by might, not by power, by His Spirit

 

[PennEd]

The reason I replied that way is because five or six years ago I was on a site that banned me.
I don't recall if it was this.


The word "hypocrite", though used in other places, is not used in Galatians..


If you think that would be incredible, can you imagine how incredible it is that God made a way to live without sin?
Death of the old man, rebirth, Holy Ghost, mind of Christ, and all the other tools wasted by the folks walking in darkness!
The Lord is "incredible"!
Thanks for reminding me.

Sorry for the reiteration, but I think this is an important point to exhibit this man's obfuscation and sinful pride.

He acknowledges that hypocrisy is sinful, but claims that Paul never accused Peter, Barnabas, and the other brethren of being hypocrites. Obviously if you are being a hypocrite, you have sinned. And in Peter and the others case they were being hypocrites about THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE, which is the Gospel.

But PJW's sinless perfection doctrine crumbles like a house of cards if he admits that Peter and the others sinned. So he must twist the Word to fit his heresy.

Here is the passage, CLEARLY SHOWING THEIR HYPOCRISY, in a variety of translations, along with Stongs concordance of the words in question:

Galation 2: 11 Now when Peter[a] had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, FEARING those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the HYPOCRITE with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their. HYPOCRISY.14 But when I saw that they were NOT straightforward about the TRUTH of the GOSPEL, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?[c]

The word "fearing" is important here because it highlights the reason Peter was being a hypocrite.
Here is Galatians 2:13 in various translations:

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Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version​

The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

New Living Translation​

As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter's hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

English Standard Version​

And the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically along with him, so that even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

Berean Study Bible​

The other Jews joined in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

Berean Literal Bible​

And also the rest of the Jews acted hypocritically with him, so that, by their hypocrisy, even Barnabas was carried away.

New American Standard Bible ​

The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

King James Bible​

And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Holman Christian Standard Bible​

Then the rest of the Jews joined his hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

International Standard Version​

The other Jews also joined him in this hypocritical behavior, to the extent that even Barnabas was caught up in their hypocrisy.

NET Bible​

And the rest of the Jews also joined with him in this hypocrisy, so that even Barnabas was led astray with them by their hypocrisy.

New Heart English Bible​

And the rest of the Jewish believers joined him in his hypocrisy; so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

In a desperate attempt to say that Peter was not being a hypocrite, he has tried to hang his hat on the KJV only ploy, clinging to the words "dissembled" and "dissimulation".

Here is the Greek word with it's definition. NOTE THAT THE 1ST DEFINITION IS MERELY REPEATING THE SUBJECT WORD MINUS THE PAST TENSE USAGE "ED".


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5"]Strong's Number: 4942[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Original Word[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]sunupokrivnomai[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (4862) and (5271)[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Sunupokrinomai[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]8:559,1235[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%, bgcolor: #FFF0BE"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]soon-oo-pok-rin'-om-ahee [/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Verb[/TD]
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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]Definition[/TD]
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1. to dissemble with
2. to act HYPOCRITICALLY with

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[TD="bgcolor: #ECD8A5, colspan: 2"]King James Word Usage - Total: 1[/TD]
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So you can see exactly WHO is being the hypocrite. And I'm NOT talking about Peter! I'm talking about PJW.

 

[blue_ladybug]

......................

 

[garee]

Are you saying that the folks who disobey God have humbled themselves before God?

Actually its a work of god not seen turning us so that we can hear his voice and comfort/repent our selves knowing he will never leave us a forsake us. He does all the work of salvation comforting/repenting, teaching and guiding and bringing to our minds the things he has taught us.

Many simply turn the repenting upside down as if it was something we could do without him working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

The definition for comfort/repent is clear? Why turn it upside down as if the clay formed the Potter because the Potter has no understanding who comforts who?.

Strongs lexicon 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself



I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented(comforted myself) ; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Jer 31:18

We cannot comfort/repent our own selves as if we paid the eternal wage for our own sin. He who does deny us when we in unbelief deny . If he does not do the first work as a our first love of knowing him who has no form by turning no man will be comforted. we must do the first work of Him working in us, believe God.

He remains faithful according to His work of faith or three day labor of love. He cannot deny himself. if he has begun the good work we have his confidence he will finish it to the end.. Finishing is better than starting just as patience is better that false pride coming from those who think they will be found with a righteousness of their own self (self righteous). They simply stand in judgment of God grace as if it was a license to sin rather than getting under His hyper grace a gift of His forgiveness . They do despite to the Spirit of grace.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.2Timothy 2:12

 

[BillG]

And when you are "immersed", baptized into Christ, you can be sinless too.
Your old man of the flesh is crucified and buried with Christ. It is then raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
A life gendered of God's seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.

I been fully immersed and baptised into Jesus thank you very much.

 

[PHart]

isnt this the same thing?

works literally earn us salvation

works of love for Jesus will determine if we are saved or not

looks same to me.

No, they are not the same thing. It's the difference between Christ looking for works to see who has earned a place in the kingdom, and Him looking for works to see who has been gifted a place in the kingdom through the transforming power of his forgiveness. Here's an example:

47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much...” (Luke 7:47 NASB)

Jesus is saying he can tell her sins are forgiven by the way she loves. This is how it will be on the Day of Judgment. Christ will use what we have done in our lives to see if we are forgiven as evidenced by our obedience displayed in our active love for Him.

34“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ " (Matthew 25:34-36 NASB)

See? That's how works are required in salvation without those works earning that salvation as most in the church instantly think works means in salvation.

 

[BillG]

Are you saying that the folks who disobey God have humbled themselves before God?

Probably a lot more than those who feel no need to because they do nothing wrong at all.

What is it David said of God?

Psalms 51:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

Do your legs and backside hurt when you get off that high horse at the end of day?

 

[BillG]

Actually its a work of god not seen turning us so that we can hear his voice and comfort/repent our selves knowing he will never leave us a forsake us. He does all the work of salvation comforting/repenting, teaching and guiding and bringing to our minds the things he has taught us.

Many simply turn the repenting upside down as if it was something we could do without him working in us to both will and do His good pleasure.

The definition for comfort/repent is clear? Why turn it upside down as if the clay formed the Potter because the Potter has no understanding who comforts who?.

Strongs lexicon 05162 nacham {naw-kham'}
a primitive root; TWOT - 1344; v
AV - comfort 57, repent 41, comforter 9, ease 1; 108
1) to be sorry, console oneself, repent, regret, comfort, be comforted 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be sorry, be moved to pity, have compassion 1a2) to be sorry, rue, suffer grief, repent 1a3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1a4) to comfort oneself, ease oneself 1b) (Piel) to comfort, console 1c) (Pual) to be comforted, be consoled 1d) (Hithpael) 1d1) to be sorry, have compassion 1d2) to rue, repent of 1d3) to comfort oneself, be comforted 1d4) to ease oneself



I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the LORD my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented(comforted myself) ; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.Jer 31:18

We cannot comfort/repent our own selves as if we paid the eternal wage for our own sin. He who does deny us when we in unbelief deny . If he does not do the first work as a our first love of knowing him who has no form by turning no man will be comforted. we must do the first work of Him working in us, believe God.

He remains faithful according to His work of faith or three day labor of love. He cannot deny himself. if he has begun the good work we have his confidence he will finish it to the end.. Finishing is better than starting just as patience is better that false pride coming from those who think they will be found with a righteousness of their own self (self righteous). They simply stand in judgment of God grace as if it was a license to sin rather than getting under His hyper grace a gift of His forgiveness . They do despite to the Spirit of grace.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.2Timothy 2:12

I was tempted to make a little change to that primitive root word but had to stop myself.

 

[dcontroversal]

He posited that all men sin. and when shown that Jesus didn't sin and the POV was shown false, replied thusly.
I don't think he is involved with a cult, but until he realizes that sinners are not in Christ, stands to experience a great terror on the last day.
He is in my prayers.

He did not say Jesus sinned and your spreading false allegations which is sin.......so....your I don't sin theory just few with Jack over the proverbial NEST..........

and while there......

He who KNEW no sin BECAME SIN FOR US, hung upon a tree cursed and the Heavenly Father tuned his back upon him.......I suggest you actually look to JESUS and acknowledge his work in faith instead of your working for, I don't sin dogma....

 

[dcontroversal]

As these events won't happen till after the final judgement, what sort of man should I be until then?

Like I said, and every time you post you prove the following point.....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Obviously you cannot read nor understand context....

 

[dcontroversal]

If not, the wrath of God will give me my just desserts.
Like Paul wrote..."But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway." (1 Cor 9:27)
I too, by the grace of God, keep myself in subjection to God.

So can you.

Maybe you should study the work castaway and context at the same time.....then open your eyes.......

 

[dcontroversal]

I agree completely.
Where we differ is in the cause of and consequences for disobedience.

Yep...for those who are saved it is called chastisement not cast!