Not By Works

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Oct 30, 2017
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dcontroversal's Avatar
dcontroversal said:
January 2nd, 2017
Default Not By Works
It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

If you mean what you wrote the way you wrote it, you are wrong! We only become righteous once we have salvation. Otherwise we only do works. You stated righteous works which can only be accomplished once one becomes righteous which is only a result of salvation. Therefore without salvation we only do works, righteous works is a result of salvation.

God Bless!
 

plaintalk

Senior Member
Jul 20, 2015
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“Work are works are works”

In my opinion this statement is suggesting that all works are the same in that they have, supposedly, nothing to do with salvation. Considering the following verses, I must respectfully disagree.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]who will render to each person according to his deeds: [SUP]7 [/SUP]to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. [SUP]9 [/SUP]There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. (Rom. 2: 6- 10) NASB

God bless.
 
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PHart

Guest
...our salvation will be determined by "every deed done in our body,"...
Does he mean that our works literally earn us salvation, or does he mean what the Bible says, that our works of love for Jesus is what will be used to determine if we are saved or not?



...he teaches that he has remained sinless since conversion.
Let him think what he wants.
I'm confident that he is not lying when he says he has not gone back to his old life (murder, drugs, rape, etc. Whatever applies) since being born again. Neither have I. But I think he has yet to grasp the sinfulness of envy, jealousy, greed, thoughtlessness, and those kinds of things. To me it's not worth trying to convince him beyond a post or two.
 
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PHart

Guest

The church does and should welcome such persons with open arms of acceptance. Even if they profess Christ. That is why we are called "ministers of the soul."
No, the willful habitual unrepentant sinning professor of Christ is to be put out of the fellowship:


"
11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13 NASB)


There's a big difference between a person who struggles with sin and an outright hypocrite. Hypocrites are to be removed from the fellowship. Hypocrites will be destroyed on the Day of Judgment, not saved. No profession of Christ will save them on that day. God warned us ahead of time. No excuses. Calvinism won't be able to save them on that Day.

Meanwhile, humble, struggling people who cling to and abide in the forgiveness of God will be saved.
 
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PHart

Guest
They must believe we all are secret boozers, fornicators, committing adultery right and left. :)
No, just mean and angry and selfish. It's no secret that 'Christians' are not nice people. They're good at church attendance, giving/tithing, the Great Commission, things like that, but they are clueless when it comes to the fruit of the Spirit. Utterly clueless, it seems. I blame the church leadership for this failure. I'm a victim of the church, too, but thankfully, God is bringing me into the fourth kind of soil. I want to see other people brought into that 'land' by the grace of God, too. But what you get is strong resistance to that message.
 
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PHart

Guest
They're good at church attendance, giving/tithing, the Great Commission, things like that, but they are clueless when it comes to the fruit of the Spirit.
..You know, like the Pharisees. Good on the outside, rotten on the inside. And yet it is we who defend righteous living as the result of our faith in Christ that get branded the Pharisees. They don't understand what the failure of the Pharisee was exactly.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Absolutely NOT.
They don't believe we can walk without sin.
They misuse 1 John 1:8 to imply that the obedient are liars.

You still are NOT understanding, that Sanctification of the Human Spirit and the Body are NOT THE SAME THING, and DO NOT HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.

Sanctification of the human spirit happens instantaniously the moment we Believe, Totally Trusting Jesus for our Salvation.

Sanctification of the Body is a life long struggle, of becoming more and more like Christ, and will NOT BE FINISHED until we are Resurrected or CHANGED at the Rapture into that Perfect Gloried Body.

If one could perfect this body, it would not grow OLD and DIE. God would just say COME UP HERE and your perfected body would fly up there. BUT NO, we will Die because a Sin Nature remains in this body.

WERE SAVED can describe three different kinds of events; Eternal Salvation of the Human Spirit, and Eternal Salvation of the Human Body, and temporal physically being saved from a Catastrophic Event.


1 Peter 3:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] who in the past were disobedient, when God patiently waited in the days of Noah while an ark was being prepared. In it a few—that is, eight people—were saved through water.


That is an example of the last type of Salvation that I mentioned.


Ephesians 2:8-9 (NRSV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God—
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not the result of works, so that no one may boast.


That is an example of the Salvation of the Human Spirit that I mentioned.


Hebrews 9:26-28 (ESV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
[SUP]28 [/SUP] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. {AT THE RAPTURE, 1 Thes. 4:15-18}


That is an example of the Salvation of the Body that I mentioned.

WHY MUST this mortal body DIE ONCE? BECAUSE THEIR IS STILL A SIN NATURE IN IT.

As you can see, Salvation of the Body is a Future Event when He sends the Archangel to CALL OUT HIS BRIDE. While Salvation of the Human Spirit is a past tense event, that happened the very moment the Holy Spirit entered out Hearts, giving us the Gifit of GOD including , genuine FAITH, Eternal Salvation of our Human Spirit birthed SINFREE, and pouring GOD's LOVE directly into our Hearts {Human Spirit}; because of what HE DID ON THE CROSS.

ONE LAST POINT:

1 Corinthians 15:50-54 (HCSB)
[SUP]50 [/SUP] Brothers, I tell you this: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, and corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
[SUP]51 [/SUP] Listen! I am telling you a mystery: We will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed,
[SUP]52 [/SUP] in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
[SUP]53 [/SUP] For this corruptible must be clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal must be clothed with immortality.
[SUP]54 [/SUP] When this corruptible is clothed with incorruptibility, and this mortal is clothedwith immortality, then the saying that is written will take place: Death has been swallowed up in victory.


The REASON Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of GOD, is because the corruption that remains in THIS MORTAL BODY IS THE SIN NATURE inherited from ADAM. This BODY must DIE or be changed at the RAPTURE, because the so-called genetic defect that ADAM gave us is a SIN NATURE. ONLY AFTER we get that Glorified Resurrected/Changed Body will we be TOTALLY FREE FROM SIN.
 
Jul 23, 2017
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Does he mean that our works literally earn us salvation, or does he mean what the Bible says, that our works of love for Jesus is what will be used to determine if we are saved or not?
isnt this the same thing?

works literally earn us salvation

works of love for Jesus will determine if we are saved or not

looks same to me.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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The church is in good order, mingled with the likes of you with your many false gospels.

I'm certain that ticks you off concerning Calvin. He has you lined out and exposed with the Doctrines of Grace.
Truly Truly I say, you are correct sir, "The church is in good order." The "ilk", who promote their false gospels are found also in large congregations because they are able to blend in with the crowd. I think the problem is that the, "ilk", leave the nest, (the congregation), to early and then they end up on international forums where they can continue their heretical gospel.

Notice that their language when spoken about the church and the congregants, is vague and ill-defined. They, "the ilk", never point to or name a specific pastor or Church and, "what they teach", and so the Pastor cannot defend his theological position because, there is no such person.
Yes, "the church is in good order."

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew16:18
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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Definition of the word, "ilk"; classification, variety or species; ie, could refer to;
"a bird who left the nest to early." not a derogatory term
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Yes we used to be married to sin, we are no longer married to sin,;

Romans, “6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin* that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?"

*What is sin, that we may not continue in it?

1 John 3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”


Also can you show me what in this post is not correct with Scripture? Because that was a strong accusation that im not walking in the Spirit.
I missed this post somehow, and didn't see your question.

I didn't say you aren't walking in the Spirit. I said it's obvious that you aren't living by the promises of God for you are posting negativity. It's not our job to convict. That is the work of Holy Spirit. The scriptures say to build one another up, not tear one another down.

Something that I need to change too with my postings. And BillG has been posting this for many weeks, if not months.

I may fail a few times until I get it.
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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..You know, like the Pharisees. Good on the outside, rotten on the inside. And yet it is we who defend righteous living as the result of our faith in Christ that get branded the Pharisees. They don't understand what the failure of the Pharisee was exactly.
Phart, are you calling righteous living, walking upright? Living a moral life?

I got this backwards. Are you calling Living a moral life, righteous living? And the term biblically is walking upright.
 

stonesoffire

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Nov 24, 2013
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No, just mean and angry and selfish. It's no secret that 'Christians' are not nice people. They're good at church attendance, giving/tithing, the Great Commission, things like that, but they are clueless when it comes to the fruit of the Spirit. Utterly clueless, it seems. I blame the church leadership for this failure. I'm a victim of the church, too, but thankfully, God is bringing me into the fourth kind of soil. I want to see other people brought into that 'land' by the grace of God, too. But what you get is strong resistance to that message.
Ok. I have no problem with the substance of your post, and I agree. These are the kind of things that trip us up. Faults, not willful sin, but old habits.

Not knowing and not applying the truth of being crucified with Christ.

Still in the courtyard of the temple, and perhaps just looking in.

Jesus spoke about not"entering in".

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born ofwater and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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But, works do not grant us salvation. Only trust in the blood of Jesus. Whosoever calls upon the name of Jesus will be saved.

Say not in your heart who will ascend, descend, for the Word in the heart and confession from the mouth, saves us.
 
Jul 23, 2017
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I blame Calvin for the state of the church these days.
im not a calvinist (yet) and im sure calvin was quadruple times more productive than u.
its easy to blame others
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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isnt this the same thing?

works literally earn us salvation

works of love for Jesus will determine if we are saved or not

looks same to me.

No, they are the opposite. Part of the problem is how you worded it.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT from GOD, totally separate from works. Eph. 2:8-9, says exactly that.

Your second statement is an error, because you used the word "determine".

A correct way to put it is:


Works can NEVER EARN SALVATION, they are an act of LOVE for HIM, Not something to earn Salvation with.

Works motivated by LOVE for HIM, are evidence that WE WERE GENUINELY SAVED PRIOR TO DOING OUR FIRST GOOD WORK.

IT ALSO GIVES EVIDENCE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED GOD'S LOVE INTO OUR HEARTS WHEN WE WERE SAVED (Rom 5:5), BECAUSE OUR LOVE FOR GOD SPAWNS OUT OF HIS LOVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT POURED INTO OUR HEARTS.

Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law, because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.

Romans 3:27-28 (HCSB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By one of works? No, on the contrary, by a law of faith.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] For we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

1 John 4:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love because He first loved us.


See it, Love for GOD spawns out of GOD's Love poured into our hearts the moment we genuinely BELIEVED totally trusting HIM; THAT LOVE FOR HIM, spawns genuine loving obedience as way to show our LOVE FOR HIM. It is not related to Salvation at all. It is also TRUE that ONLY those who WERE SAVED, past tense, will manifest that type of LOVE FOR HIM.

Verses that prove that trying to EARN SALVATION WITH WORKS, is a VERY Dangerous Theology, and are very scary:

Romans 4:3-5 (HCSB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him for righteousness.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] Now to the one who works, pay is not considered as a gift {Eph. 2:8-9}, but as something owed.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But to the one who does not work, but believes on Him who declares the ungodly to be righteous, his faith is credited for righteousness.

Galatians 5:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] You who are trying to be justified by the law are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace.
 
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PJW

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Oct 6, 2017
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I have no desire or have made any effort passive or aggressive to drag you to sin sir that is a falsehood.
Dare I say it ?Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor
Blessings
Bill
Perhaps your memory will be jogged if you go back and read your post #42721.