The Rapture
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I think Ahwatukee just forfeit his point by saying there is no verse for pre-trib rapture
There is one for post-trib though, 2 thessalonians 2 and Matthew 24 seem clear.
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Ellsworth1943
Guest
Never claimed to be a Bible expert. Was in response to post #7750, and I said it in a joking way. But many on this forum do. Many on this forum do accuse those who disagree with them as being ignorant, unlearned, lack study, do not know proper interpretation, not lead by the Spirit, I.E. we are stupid and should never question their superior knowledge and understanding that was given to them by the Spirit.
Many have presented a very detailed time line that is based on their Bible expertise. I question it because of the Scriptures they present as proof, but even more because of the Scriptures they avoid or offer a private interpretation of.
I have stated my belief that is based on my own study, and have stated I may be wrong. And yes most, not all, disagree with me.
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heartofdavid
Guest
Jacobs trouble is "Jewish" trouble.
At the first miracle the gov of the feast told the groom " you saved the best for last.
The Jews come in last. Rev 14. They are harvested as RIPE fruit.
Which is also " unless those days are shortened..."
Rev 14
H
heartofdavid
Guest
It does get heated at times.
Post trib has no verses. That is WHY they go personal.
Imagine,if my doctrine as a pretribber was interwoven with personal insults as part of my notes.
Postrib has no biblical standing,ZERO.
Now, do you see the dilemma?
All the verses of warning from Jesus about telling His disciples to be ready are describing the times that the believers are in when they are not under the oppressive reign of the mark of the beast system to buy & sell by that mark to survive.
May He enable you to get that point of truth.
Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP] 36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
What are the snares of the cares of life during the great tribulation? Not something a christian would have any luxury in having at the end of the great tribulation.
So what is the escape that the cares of this world can serve as a snare? The pre trib rapture from this life we are living now.
May He enable you to get that point of truth.
Luke 21:[SUP]33 [/SUP]Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.[SUP]34 [/SUP]And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.[SUP] 35 [/SUP]For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.[SUP] 36 [/SUP]Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
What are the snares of the cares of life during the great tribulation? Not something a christian would have any luxury in having at the end of the great tribulation.
So what is the escape that the cares of this world can serve as a snare? The pre trib rapture from this life we are living now.
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Ellsworth1943
Guest
H
heartofdavid
Guest
A babe in Christ with a bible can see post trib rapture is impossible.
Read the book of Ruth,then proceede to show us Ruth was not a Gentile bride.
Under your logic, she can't be because it does not say ,"gentile bride" SPECIFICALLY.
THEREFORE,in your mind,she CANNOT BE what is an obvious no brainer.
Same with this subject. Cast out the obvious,substitute whatever,then ask us to make the leap with you
so you believe matt 24 is wrote for Jews only?
who is Jews ? Citizen of modern Israel?
israel citizen are like US citizen, they are mixed. Some are Palestinians.
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heartofdavid
Guest
Timeline
Address the timeline.
Jesus used Lot and Noah
Show me where they were taken out post judgement.
Even the Baby Jesus was taken out PREJUDGEMENT
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heartofdavid
Guest
Rev 14
There is a gathering during the GT
SO, under post trib doctrine,you place the dead rising in 1THES. AFTER the living are harvested.
Impossible.
Postrib rapture is impossible
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Ellsworth1943
Guest
When does God's judgement come according to Scripture?
Rev. 11:15-19 Verse 18---"thy wrath has come"
Rev. 15 & 16 give a detailed account of what God's wrath is and how and when and upon who it will be poured out.
All the event preceding the sounding of the seventh, i.e. last trump is the great tribulation that Jesus said would come.
As is promised, the saints will escape God's wrath, but as also stated must endure tribulation as has never before seen.
Now to say that Rev. 6:17 is the announcement of God's wrath is to believe the misguided statement of ungodly men who have just suffered the greatest earthquake the earth has ever had and are blaming God.
I choose to ignore what these ungodly men say and accept the announcement from Heaven the His wrath has come.
That's how I understand what the Scripture teaches.
Hello Ellsworth1943,
The verse above is listed after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. God's wrath is also mentioned at the opening of the 6th seal in Rev.6:15-17:
"And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the commanders, and the rich, and the powerful, and every slave and free, hid themselves in the caves, and among the rocks of the mountains. And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
And the seven bowl judgments are also referred to as what completes God's wrath:
"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues—the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed." Rev.15:1
So we have God's wrath mentioned in regards to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. In support of all three sets being God's wrath, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which leads to the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. These all make up God's wrath.
Those who claim the above are not ungodly men, but are proclaiming the truth. For you cannot deny that the wrath is being announced in Rev.6:17. What you are doing is attempting to get ride of the scriptural evidence.
God's wrath consists of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which take place after the church has been gathered and that because believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
You should not be teaching on things you know nothing about.
The verse above is listed after the sounding of the 7th trumpet. God's wrath is also mentioned at the opening of the 6th seal in Rev.6:15-17:
"And the kings of the earth, and the great ones, and the commanders, and the rich, and the powerful, and every slave and free, hid themselves in the caves, and among the rocks of the mountains. And they say to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One sitting on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of Their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
And the seven bowl judgments are also referred to as what completes God's wrath:
"And I saw another great and wonderful sign in heaven: seven angels, having seven plagues—the last, because in them the wrath of God was completed." Rev.15:1
So we have God's wrath mentioned in regards to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. In support of all three sets being God's wrath, it is the Lamb/Jesus who is opening the seals, which leads to the trumpets, followed by the bowl judgments. These all make up God's wrath.
Those who claim the above are not ungodly men, but are proclaiming the truth. For you cannot deny that the wrath is being announced in Rev.6:17. What you are doing is attempting to get ride of the scriptural evidence.
God's wrath consists of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which take place after the church has been gathered and that because believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
You should not be teaching on things you know nothing about.
It's not mentioned. What "the time of Jacob's trouble" is, is just another designation for the great tribulation period. It's just referred by that way in Jer.30:7.
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heartofdavid
Guest
The AC kills all refusing the mark. That happens in the trib. All refusing die.
So mid trib won't work either.
Mat 25 has the rapture. Only about half actually go with the dead in Christ
E
Ellsworth1943
Guest
The last statement in your post tells it all about you and your self exalted importance.
You are not God's gift to mankind. You are not the all knowing one. Your attitude toward those who disagreed with you makes me sick.
Well enough with the personal attack even if it was warranted.
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heartofdavid
Guest
He is a super nice guy. I think maybe some smiles would have been warranted.