The Rapture
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2 Thessalonians 2King James Version (KJV)
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
1. What is Paul want to say in this letter, it show in verse one. He want to talk about,
he want to talk about the coming of the Lord/second coming and our gathering together unto him/ rapture
2 why Paul address this issue?
verse 2 indicate that some people claim get revelation from the spirit, or letter from Apostle that that day(second coming and rapture) is in hand.
3. Paul explain the time line
verse 3, that day will come after a man of sin (antichrist ) be revealed.
verse 4 and 5 is what the antichrist do.
Well, I am still not convinced in a pre-trib rapture because our blessed hope is not being raptured pre-trib, but His second advent. The reason I say this is because we are going through Joel in our Wednesday night bible study class, and my pastor is presenting it through a dispensationial pre-mill, pre-trib view. When asked if ppl can be saved during the trib/great trib, he said it would be hard. Uh huh. Suuuuuuure!!! The ekklesia and the Spirit have been taken out and ppl can be saved without the Spirit's presence? Suuuuuuure!!
Now, didn't you say before in an earlier post, you believed no one here on earth during the seven years of trib would be saved? I could agree with that much of your stance if I remember what you said correctly.
Please expound. Thanks again, my Brother.
Now, didn't you say before in an earlier post, you believed no one here on earth during the seven years of trib would be saved? I could agree with that much of your stance if I remember what you said correctly.
Please expound. Thanks again, my Brother.
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Brother Endoscopy,
I am not sure what your eschatological stance is, but can you show me one verse or passage that unequivocally shows a pre-trib rapture? I see the usual 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and Revelation 4:1, but there is not one mention of a tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-trib.
Brother Ahwatuke(please forgive me if I spelled your username wrong Brother Ah) has shown a bunch of passages, but they do not proved a pre-trib rapture, imo.
I am not sure what your eschatological stance is, but can you show me one verse or passage that unequivocally shows a pre-trib rapture? I see the usual 1 Thess. 4:13-18 and Revelation 4:1, but there is not one mention of a tribulation, whether it be pre-, mid-, or post-trib.
Brother Ahwatuke(please forgive me if I spelled your username wrong Brother Ah) has shown a bunch of passages, but they do not proved a pre-trib rapture, imo.
Been through this many times.
1. The temple must be built.
2. The man will be making himself be known about before the tribulation starts.
3. He will seat himself most likely mid trib or possibly before.
4. Jesus will return causing the rapture some time before the 7 year intense tribulation.
5. How long before is the question. Mid trib, nearer the begining of the trib, or just before. The just before is the least favored mid trib is most favored.
I always wondered about the timing of the rapture and the seating of the man of sin in the temple claiming to be God. Would the faithful be allowed to see that.
1. The temple must be built.
2. The man will be making himself be known about before the tribulation starts.
3. He will seat himself most likely mid trib or possibly before.
4. Jesus will return causing the rapture some time before the 7 year intense tribulation.
5. How long before is the question. Mid trib, nearer the begining of the trib, or just before. The just before is the least favored mid trib is most favored.
I always wondered about the timing of the rapture and the seating of the man of sin in the temple claiming to be God. Would the faithful be allowed to see that.
LOL
I am pan trib since even the theologians have created 4 views of it and my studies just left me confused. I believe it will all pan out in the end. I personally don't hold to the pre trib view. Some do. Since it is as clear as mud to me I threw up my hands in defeat of figuring it out and finding out there were 4 main views with each having minor sub views I understand why I was confused. No one really knows. No other part of scripture has so many widely divergent understanding of the issue. Mostly the other doctrinal issues have comparatively much much smaller disagreements.
Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be
Que será, será
I am pan trib since even the theologians have created 4 views of it and my studies just left me confused. I believe it will all pan out in the end. I personally don't hold to the pre trib view. Some do. Since it is as clear as mud to me I threw up my hands in defeat of figuring it out and finding out there were 4 main views with each having minor sub views I understand why I was confused. No one really knows. No other part of scripture has so many widely divergent understanding of the issue. Mostly the other doctrinal issues have comparatively much much smaller disagreements.
Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be
Que será, será
Well, my main concern with pre-trib is there is not one verse or passage that unequivocally, explicitly states the rapture of the church is pre-trib. Shoot, there's not one verse or passage of scriptures that unequivocally or explicitly states a mid- or post-trib rapture, but I do think Matthew 24:29-31 is pretty close to showing a post-trib rapture.
As I was reading some online articles one popped out to me. A guy says that not one verse in the NT states the temple will be rebuilt. Now, its in the OT however. But it struck me odd that ppl will reinstitute animal sacrifice whilst the Christ is reigning.
As I was reading some online articles one popped out to me. A guy says that not one verse in the NT states the temple will be rebuilt. Now, its in the OT however. But it struck me odd that ppl will reinstitute animal sacrifice whilst the Christ is reigning.
matt 24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
verse 21 and 22 indicate the elect or
christian still on earth, not rapture yet
when tribulation happen
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
verse 21 and 22 indicate the elect or
christian still on earth, not rapture yet
when tribulation happen
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:21-22, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."
[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”[/FONT]
Good day SovereignGrace,
Our "Blessed hope" according to scripture is as follows:
"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Now, if you interpret the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being the same event, then you will err in your interpretation. Since the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, then if you have the gathering of the church taking place at the same time, it could not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with that hope, because we would have to first go through God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.
However, by the church being gathered prior to God's wrath, then it would be a blessed hope and believers could comfort one another with that hope. But there would be no blessed hope nor comfort if we had to go through God's wrath first.
There is a big difference between the trials and tribulations that believers go through which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, which will be God's direct wrath upon mankind decimating the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. Regarding this, the church cannot be here, for Jesus already suffer God's wrath on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely.
No, I never did say that "no one would be saved during the seven years" nor would I. God has given the world His word and there are those who don't do well with verbal warning. And so God, like a parent, is going to use physical measures to get peoples attention. Unfortunately there will still be those who will resist this as well.
People will indeed be saved during that last seven years, which is what the introduction of the great tribulation saints in Rev.7:9-17 is in reference to. These are those during the time of God's wrath who will believe in Christ after the church has been removed. The majority of them will be killed because of their faith during that time. Though the Spirit will be taken out of the way and the church with Him, He will work in the same manner as He did prior to Christ coming in the flesh. The woman/Israel will also be saved, as she will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. Both of these groups will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.
Our "Blessed hope" according to scripture is as follows:
"waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Now, if you interpret the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being the same event, then you will err in your interpretation. Since the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth to end the age, then if you have the gathering of the church taking place at the same time, it could not be a blessed hope, nor could we comfort one another with that hope, because we would have to first go through God's wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.
However, by the church being gathered prior to God's wrath, then it would be a blessed hope and believers could comfort one another with that hope. But there would be no blessed hope nor comfort if we had to go through God's wrath first.
There is a big difference between the trials and tribulations that believers go through which come at the hands of mankind and the powers of darkness vs. the unprecedented coming wrath of God, which will be God's direct wrath upon mankind decimating the majority of the earths population and the dismantling of all human government. Regarding this, the church cannot be here, for Jesus already suffer God's wrath on every believers behalf, satisfying it completely.
No, I never did say that "no one would be saved during the seven years" nor would I. God has given the world His word and there are those who don't do well with verbal warning. And so God, like a parent, is going to use physical measures to get peoples attention. Unfortunately there will still be those who will resist this as well.
People will indeed be saved during that last seven years, which is what the introduction of the great tribulation saints in Rev.7:9-17 is in reference to. These are those during the time of God's wrath who will believe in Christ after the church has been removed. The majority of them will be killed because of their faith during that time. Though the Spirit will be taken out of the way and the church with Him, He will work in the same manner as He did prior to Christ coming in the flesh. The woman/Israel will also be saved, as she will flee out into the desert where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 years. Both of these groups will be those who will repopulate the earth during the millennial period.
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Hizikyah, the above is not referring to the gathering of the church. This is why I said that it is important to understand that the gathering of the church is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which is what the scripture above is referring to. Those who are being gathered by the angels in Matt.24:31 will be those great tribulation saints who will have made it through the time of God's wrath alive. They will be those who will enter into the millennial period in their mortal bodies and repopulate the earth. The phrase "they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other” simply means that the angels will be gathering the saints from the every corner of the earth and has nothing to do with a rapture. Matt.24:31 is not referring to the living being changed and caught up. Again, if the were the case, it would mean that the church would have to go through the entire wrath of God, which would have taken place first.
When coming to a conclusion regarding end-time events you have to take all related scripture into consideration. According to your claim above, you are not doing that.
I reiterate, Matt.24:31 is not referring to the gathering of the church, but is referring to the gathering of those who will have made alive through the time of God's wrath in their mortal bodies and are those who will be gathered by the angels.
That's because there isn't one! The timing of the gathering of the church is deduced by comparing and cross-referencing all related end-time scriptures. For example, since the word of God states that believers within the church are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then the church cannot go through God's wrath.
Therefore, this truth has to be taken into consideration when forming an interpretation regarding the timing of the gathering of the church. It's a boundary that the church can't cross. This is exactly why I continue to disagree when people put the gathering of the church as being the same event as when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and that because it would put the church through the entire wrath of God. When you tell people this, all they do is provide some existing apologetic or they make one up in order to circumvent the truth that has been provided.
The closest you can get to a direct understanding that of the church being gathered and in heaven during the time of God's wrath is through reading Rev.19:6-8 which shows the church as the bride receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, with her following the Lord out of heaven on white horses wearing that same fine linen. Have you studied this issue?