The Rapture

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I have noticed that some posters are more in tune with the Spirit than others are. The Spirit reveals what Scripture means even if it does not really say what has been revealed to them.
It must be so because they constantly remind us of it.
 
Hey my brother...we do have some thing in common.
We love our Lord and Father...creator of this WORLD.
And GOD said...it is GOOD.

And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it wasvery good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

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So I love that... I mean who could be richer than that ? (Idiots don't read that, yet man is still so stupid compared to that. I mean cut an apple in half, give it to the greatest scientist and say...can you make even this ?).

ALL my years of enslavement to put bread on the table, is only a small small test compared to everlasting life in God's free gift above... and cruise the heavens.

Close your eyes and listen to "heal the world" and "imagine"... this is just man's gut feel.
So as we study...we see GOD'S cool love.

Come Lord Jesus... come. (Not..."HEY we we coming to heaven, pre trib OK"!!! ).

So we meet the Lord as we SEE the SIGN of HIS presence in the clouds. Rev 7, "in sight" of the Lord. (See Greek to English) PLUS the tent of God is with mankind.

OK...maybe some of the virgins and super HOLY go to heaven... then show yourselves !!!!

As for me...everlasting life in God's garden of Eden...has my bent knee.
I do see...it is very good. (Once evil man is manure).

HalaluuuuuuJAH ! Praise YAY you people.
Fear Yah...you eating and drinking and marrying in satan's world.

Exodus, OR... die in Babylon. Rev 18 all h;4.

And; "Before us a garden of Eden...behind us a desolate waste".

Joel 2 and 3...in the day of cloud and thick gloom. END TIME PROPHESY... and just ONE of hundreds!

......................................................................

Yes...we will fly the heavens IF we cool.

What is cool ?

Love and peace... is cool.

God...is love and peace, His creation is perfect.

MAN...MUST ADAPT...that is what holy is.
 
All scripture is written to all believers, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

Absolutely Sovereigngrace;
Confirmation from Jesus then;
"This good news of GOD'S KINGDOM (on earth) will be preached in all the earth" has NOT been done by Jews, BUT WILL be done by our Lord's followers both Jew and gentile as it was initiated by our Lord.
 
I still wanna ask why would Jesus skip through the rapture completely in the wheat and tares parable?
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I'll ask you question, do you think that every time Jesus mentions an aspect of end-time events, that He reiterated every detail, reminding the reader of everything that has previously been said in other scriptures?

The prophets and the people of the OT were quite aware of the resurrection, but it was not until Paul revealed the mystery of the living in Christ being changed at the time that the resurrection takes place. So, do you think that Jesus, as he's telling the parable of the wheat and the tares, that he should make a note to those reading that the church was going to be resurrected first and that he was talking about those who would make it through the great tribulation period, both righteous and unrighteous?

Matt.24 is a detailed account of the signs that would take place leading up to his return, even quoting the setting up of the abomination from Daniel. But you don't see any of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments included in the Olivet discourse, except for the brief mention of seal 2 and 3.

Having an understanding of end-time events is obtained from cross-referencing and comparing all of the related scriptures. Therefore, since the wheat and the tares involve believers and unbelievers who make through the time of God's wrath alive when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath and therefore must be gathered prior to God's wrath, then the only conclusion is that the wheat and tares cannot be referring to the church, but to those great tribulation saints who become believers after the church has been gathered and those who will have failed in all that the Lord mentions at the judgment of the sheep and goats.

The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are going to decimate the majority of the earths population and dismantle all human government. With just the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet, a fourth and a third respectively, this will equal fatalities of over half the earths population and that is not including the fatalities resulting from trumpets 1, 2, 3 nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments, which complete God's wrath. Those who believe the church will go through these plagues of wrath do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. It will be like nothing ever seen upon the earth.

He only mentions to his disciples who would be part of the church that its gonna be at the end of the world.
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What you bring up is a good example: Jesus told all of these things to his disciples as though they themselves would be experiencing those things "when you see these things taking place," yet they have long since died. Paul included himself in the catching away of the living church saying, "after that we who are still alive will be caught up." Yet, Paul died a natural death. The reason is because Jesus' return has always been imminent and still is.

Do you got an idea who the 24 elders are im reading through revelation and it catched my eye. I think its the apostles and the patriarchs of israel. That would be the right number.
What is your take?
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My belief on who the 24 elders are is represented by the names of the twelve tribes of Israel that will be written on the gates of the new Jerusalem representing Israel, as well as the names of the twelve apostles that will be written on foundations of the new Jerusalem representing the church. So, twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church. Regarding this see Rev.21 verses 12 & 14
 
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I believe in the exodus from Babylon.

Only the rich pay no attention to the FACT that 99% of the world is enslaved by them.
We want to be free, just as it was at the exodus from slavery in Egypt

We want to serve YHWH and do HIS WILL on earth.
So we flee satans BABYLON and rather PRAY and DO the Lord's prayer.
OK... pray it and see who must do it. WHO must do GOD'S WILL on earth ?

This time... the whole earth is the promised land, but ISRAEL is still the holy land.
We have ONE leader only...our Lord Jesus, who rules the whole earth from the holy land.

If our Lord is to rule the whole earth...then surely the whole earth is the promised land.

NOW understand this beauty, and our job;

"Before us a garden of Eden...behind us a desolate waste".

Desolate waste !!! Satans BABYLON destroyed.

That... is the wrath of GOD. "Get OUT of her my people".
"And the cities of the NATIONS fell".

So EXODUS... to welcome our Lord home...OR...remain "eating and drinking and marrying" in Satans world, as in the days of Noah, as in the days of Lot.
Awaiting... a pretribulation rapture to heaven !!!
 
If you are looking for end time confirmation, how is this;

Nearly half a million Jews have accepted our Messiah AND escalating rapidly. (Estimates vary from 300,000 upward but already over 144,000 even though I believe the 12,000 from Judah are mostly gentile believers... in the lion from the tribe of JUDAH. Not too serious, as the whole 144,000 are believers in our Messiah anyway, as we return to our Jewish roots.

Malachi 4;
1For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. (protected in the wilderness)
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. (So Messianic Jews teach and lead us).
5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: (The voice in the wilderness... in the spirit of Elijah).
6And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with total destruction.

This acceptance of Jesus by Jews has HUGE resistance from hardened Jew's, but even growing in Israel itself.

So far i'm thrilled to find this one:

ONE FOR ISRAEL Ministries.
 
Ahwatukee said:
My belief on who the 24 elders are is represented by the names of the twelve tribes of Israel that will be written on the gates of the new Jerusalem representing Israel, as well as the names of the twelve apostles that will be written on foundations of the new Jerusalem representing the church. So, twelve representing Israel and twelve representing the church. Regarding this see Rev.21 verses 12 & 14
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I agree with your view.

I heard someone say that they are the church or represent the church. I cant find any proof of this yet but I have in my bookmark an article about it which i'll be reading when i got some time.

How do you feel about that idea? the 24 = church?
 
Ahwatukee said:
Though the great tribulation saints will also be upon the earth during that last seven years, who are all Gentiles, Matt.24 is addressed regarding Israel. This is supported by the mention of the abomination being set up in the holy place within the temple, the causing of the sacrifices and offerings being ceased, the command to flee out to Judea, which is synonymous with the woman/Israel of Rev.12 fleeing out into the wilderness where she is cared for by God for that last 3 1/2 years. These Jews will be representing the nation Israel and not the church. Neither are the great tribulation saints the church. The church will have already been gathered prior to the revealing of the antichrist, which is represented by the first seal.
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The big problem is the time of the rapture in relation to the tribulation has been argued for centuries. This is just one of the many points that created the 4 different mainline views of eschatology.


There is pre trib, begining of trib, mid trib, and end of trib. The last is less likely but still possible!
 
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When I was late teens and early 20s I studied Revelation trying to figure out the time line of the events. After years of on and off study I finally gave up. After that I read and had classes on the subject and found my inability was the same for the theologians for centuries. It is very symbolic therefore clear as mud for the time line. Therefore I became a pan mil. It will all pan out in the end.

As the song goes:

Que será, será
Whatever will be, will be
The future's not ours to see
Que será, será
What will be, will be
Que será, será
 
I find it very disturbing that so many Christians concentrate on their selfish interests, like when "we" will be raptured !!!
Surely the concentration should be on our Lord's presence ... and not on the rapture.

MAN cannot separate the sheep from the goats, as that is done by our Lord AT his presence which is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

To me... the sheep will be doing GOD's WILL on earth...whereas the goats will be "eating and drinking and marrying" IN satans world...as in the days of Noah as in the days of Lot. Separate... then destruction.

Yes there is a rapture for God's anointed ones. The apostles and others were and are anointed ones, and could heal the lame, give sight to the blind and even raise the dead.

TODAY...there is NO sign of this YET !
 
Allenbee said:
I find it very disturbing that so many Christians concentrate on their selfish interests, like when "we" will be raptured !!!
Surely the concentration should be on our Lord's presence ... and not on the rapture.

MAN cannot separate the sheep from the goats, as that is done by our Lord AT his presence which is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

To me... the sheep will be doing GOD's WILL on earth...whereas the goats will be "eating and drinking and marrying" IN satans world...as in the days of Noah as in the days of Lot. Separate... then destruction.

Yes there is a rapture for God's anointed ones. The apostles and others were and are anointed ones, and could heal the lame, give sight to the blind and even raise the dead.

TODAY...there is NO sign of this YET !
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Pre trib is invented by Jesuit. I do not trust Jesuit


Jesuit Pretrib Rapture | OmegaShock.com
 
Allenbee said:
I find it very disturbing that so many Christians concentrate on their selfish interests, like when "we" will be raptured !!!
Surely the concentration should be on our Lord's presence ... and not on the rapture.

MAN cannot separate the sheep from the goats, as that is done by our Lord AT his presence which is immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.

To me... the sheep will be doing GOD's WILL on earth...whereas the goats will be "eating and drinking and marrying" IN satans world...as in the days of Noah as in the days of Lot. Separate... then destruction.

Yes there is a rapture for God's anointed ones. The apostles and others were and are anointed ones, and could heal the lame, give sight to the blind and even raise the dead.

TODAY...there is NO sign of this YET !
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It seems to me that the pre-trib rapture has Jesus on a yo-yo disguised as a cloud. I find one coming in the cloud, and that is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18, and I believe they are the same event being told by Jesus and then by Paul.
 
SovereignGrace said:
It seems to me that the pre-trib rapture has Jesus on a yo-yo disguised as a cloud. I find one coming in the cloud, and that is mentioned in Matthew 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:13-18, and I believe they are the same event being told by Jesus and then by Paul.
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So, you think that if clouds are mentioned in one event, that they must be referring to the same clouds. They do the same thing with the word "trumpet." Since the word "Trumpet" is mentioned in the seven trumpet judgments, then the last one must be the "last trumpet" referred to in 1 Cor.15:52.

The fact is that, both events mention clouds. When the dead in Christ rise first, the living in Christ are caught up with them in the clouds. Likewise, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, Matt.24:30 reveals the Son of Man arriving on the clouds.

By making the reference to clouds as referring to the same event, you put the church through God's wrath which must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as described in Matt.24:29-31 and Rev.19:11-21.

Why don't you consider all scriptures instead of settling on your adopted belief?! The church cannot be gathered at Matt.24:29-31 because it would put them through God's wrath which must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth. That should always be the first concern when interpreting the timing of the gathering of the church. Since God's wrath comes first, then we must be removed prior to His wrath.
 
Jackson123 said:
Pre trib is invented by Jesuit. I do not trust Jesuit


Jesuit Pretrib Rapture | OmegaShock.com
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Well, I've never read anything by that Jesuit and I came to the conclusion through cross-referencing and comparing scriptures, that the Lord gathers his church prior to his wrath. A Jesuit priest could not have invented it if I can read it in scripture.

All you're doing is repeating the apologetic's that you have heard other people say.
 
Ahwatukee said:
Well, I've never read anything by that Jesuit and I came to the conclusion through cross-referencing and comparing scriptures, that the Lord gathers his church prior to his wrath. A Jesuit priest could not have invented it if I can read it in scripture.

All you're doing is repeating the apologetic's that you have heard other people say.
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You better read these link brother.

Bible Q | What is the history of the doctrine of the ‘pre-tribulation secret rapture’? | Page: 1345884905000

Left Behind by the Jesuits - Scriptures Prove Secret Pre-tribulation Rapture is Anti-biblical

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie – Part 3 – Jesuit Origins | OmegaShock.com


Bible Made Simple: Where the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Came From and Why You Shouldn’t Believe It

think about it, you believe one world government is antichrist government don't you?

vatican promote one world government, that is mean they work for lucifer, and all they doctrine must directed to the benefit for lucifer
 
Jackson123 said:
You better read these link brother.

Bible Q | What is the history of the doctrine of the ‘pre-tribulation secret rapture’? | Page: 1345884905000

Left Behind by the Jesuits - Scriptures Prove Secret Pre-tribulation Rapture is Anti-biblical

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Lie – Part 3 – Jesuit Origins | OmegaShock.com


Bible Made Simple: Where the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Theory Came From and Why You Shouldn’t Believe It

think about it, you believe one world government is antichrist government don't you?

vatican promote one world government, that is mean they work for lucifer, and all they doctrine must directed to the benefit for lucifer
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This is exactly the problem! These are just other links from other teachers.

As I said, I have never read anything by this Jesuit that you are speaking of and so I could not have arrived at my conclusion by these men. These are just the false teachings of men. I stick with scripture and that is where I get my understanding. And scripture makes it clear that believers cannot and will not go through God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely.

These links that you have listed above is exactly what Paul was talking about when he said "The time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires they will gather around themselves a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths."

think about it, you believe one world government is antichrist government don't you?
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Yes, I do. But what does that have to do with the church being gathered prior to God's wrath?

The underlying principle regarding this, is that the wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Christ. Consequently, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because Christ took it. It is very important to understand this concept. If the church was to go through God's wrath, it would be as though the wrath that Jesus experienced meant nothing.

When a believers comes to Christ they have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, how can you and others say that we must go through God's wrath?

There is going to be a one world government and the beast is going to rule, but the church is not going to be here to see it.
 
Ahwatukee said:
This is exactly the problem! These are just other links from other teachers.

As I said, I have never read anything by this Jesuit that you are speaking of and so I could not have arrived at my conclusion by these men. These are just the false teachings of men. I stick with scripture and that is where I get my understanding. And scripture makes it clear that believers cannot and will not go through God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely.

These links that you have listed above is exactly what Paul was talking about when he said "The time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires they will gather around themselves a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths."



[/COLOR]Yes, I do. But what does that have to do with the church being gathered prior to God's wrath?

The underlying principle regarding this, is that the wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Christ. Consequently, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because Christ took it. It is very important to understand this concept. If the church was to go through God's wrath, it would be as though the wrath that Jesus experienced meant nothing.

When a believers comes to Christ they have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, how can you and others say that we must go through God's wrath?

There is going to be a one world government and the beast is going to rule, but the church is not going to be here to see it.
Click to expand...

His wrath was revealed from Heaven in Rom 1.18 from the beginning. But we are kept out of His wrath. It does not mean we are no longer on earth.,
 
Ahwatukee said:
1 This is exactly the problem! These are just other links from other teachers.

As I said, I have never read anything by this Jesuit that you are speaking of and so I could not have arrived at my conclusion by these men. These are just the false teachings of men. I stick with scripture and that is where I get my understanding. And scripture makes it clear that believers cannot and will not go through God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered the wrath that we deserve, satisfying it completely.

These links that you have listed above is exactly what Paul was talking about when he said "The time is coming when people will not put up with sound doctrine, but to suit their own desires they will gather around themselves a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will abandon the truth and turn aside to myths."



[/COLOR]

2. Yes, I do. But what does that have to do with the church being gathered prior to God's wrath?

The underlying principle regarding this, is that the wrath that every believer deserves was poured out on Christ. Consequently, God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer, because Christ took it. It is very important to understand this concept. If the church was to go through God's wrath, it would be as though the wrath that Jesus experienced meant nothing.

When a believers comes to Christ they have been credited with righteousness and reconciled to God. Therefore, how can you and others say that we must go through God's wrath?

There is going to be a one world government and the beast is going to rule, but the church is not going to be here to see it.
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1 My brother, every Christian including me believe in scripture, but we also affected by our preacher, or our church interpretation, or what we read.

Then we analyzed. For example 2 thess 2

you interpretation is exactly like one of the preacher that come to my church about 4 years ago. He may learn from a book or online or some where.

I use to believe pretrib, because that what my mentor teach me.

But after I read post trib, I change my mind. So we not only read scripture, but we read the interpretation from various interpreter.

my point is, I believe post trib, and you believe pre trib, not only because we read bible only, but we also read the interpretation.

I do not believe Jesuit honest, His pre trib doctrine design to decieve us.

2. So we know that Jesuit work for lucifer, than do not believe his pretrib doctrine.

history show the origin this doctrine is from Jesuit, they insert to Protestant to decieve us.
 
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