Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

This is beneath you peter. Way beneath you. His account was hacked and you know that. And WHY would you post trash and cursing and not give WARNING about what someone will see when they click those links? Why would you do that to someone??

wow. I had to go back when I saw someone respond to your post to see what this was about. Sadly, From what I have seen from peter the last 2 years. This is just par for the course. He has been doing things like this to people who disagree with him, and for some reason, he is not held accountable. When you KNOW (as you said Peter did) things, yet still slander people based on this knowledge, something is wrong majorly wrong.

These things happen when you get desperate or have nothing else to argue with, it is called a smear campaign, and it is evil.

Thank you for bringing this to the light.

 

[VCO]

I also think that loving people does not mean agreeing with people. Or taking our belief system and putting it in danger, or slandering other people.

Jesus loved the pharisees, As he did all the world. But he had no problem ripping their false doctrine to shreds.


We have to learn the difference between Love, and enabling.

That was an understatement:

John 8:43-45 (ESV)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.
[SUP]44 [/SUP] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
[SUP]45 [/SUP] But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

 

[loveme1]

Believing in Jesus, and being a believer of him are two different things,

even demons believe, yet tremble. we can pray Phart like them will tremble one day like we all did when we came to the knowledge of our savior and repented.

Please expand and state why PHart does not believe?

 

[PeterJens]

righttttttt aren't you all talk about willful sin?
so meaning that you insinuate that we are not deluded yet somehow deluded,good luck figuring that one out.

I have met people who were certain about one point.

My son had his teacher in primary school come up to and tell him

8 + 8 + 8 is not 24

As he said, it was odd because he knew it was, but she was certain
it was not.

How do any of us know if we have got something wrong? We go back to first
principles and prove it.

Now groups who rely on delusion actively deny this process, and will jump from
one point to the next, because it maintains the logic ( or lack of it )

Imagine if I deny it goes dark at night, it is just my eyes that decide to make me
go to bed make it appear it is dark. Now both could be true, it actually going dark
or my eyes making it seem to go dark. Until I accept there are two possibilities,
only one will be true for me.

This is how science works. You propose an outcome with an explanation and construct
an experiment to distinguish between the two. And it really does work, which is why
I am typing into a computer now knowing you will be able to read this, which in some
ways of thinking is absurd until very recently.

This is the foundation of critical thinking, which is very important in life, both in the
believers world and the real practical world.

 

[PHart]

If that's true then there's no hope for any of us, including you my friend.

No, there is hope for me, because my sin is covered by the blood of Christ because I continue to believe in it. But a willful return to the world in unbelief will most certainly separate me from the grace of God I presently have.

I have never come across a believer who thinks grace is a "license to sin".

Everybody who thinks grace can not be forfeited by what you say, think, do, or believe is saying grace is a license to sin.

There is one thing that will most assuredly forfeit the grace of God in your life: a return to unbelief. Not your doubt, not your struggle with sin. Your return to outright unbelief. You can not continue to have the grace of God in Christ that you no longer believe and trust in. That is the one place that grace will not go. It will not follow you back into unbelief.

Now, you can believe that nothing, including unbelief, can separate the believer from the grace of God, or you can believe that God will never let you do that which separates you from God, but both beliefs destroy OSAS doctrine.

So, which one do you give as the reason why a person can never lose their salvation? Do you say it's because there is nothing that you can do or believe to lose salvation? If so, then you saying grace is a license to sin. And if you say it's because God won't let you do that which forfeits your salvation then you believe there really is something that can separate you from your salvation. So, which one do you believe?

That may be the thought of the world, but not the thought of a new creature in Christ.

You said it, not me, lol.

I am forced to wonder about the person who makes grace a license to willfully continue in sin and still be saved no matter what. They may be just uneducated about the truth of the matter, or, as you say, they simply do not have a saving relationship with God. The real test is in how they handle being corrected about the matter. Offense and accusations of 'judging' are important signals of that person's relationship with God. I know this from years of talking to unbelievers in the workplace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please expand and state why PHart does not believe?

Because Phart does not believe Jesus can keep his people from falling, as Jesus promised under any circumstance he will.

Phart also does not believe God will do everything in his power to give all his children reason to have faith. You only lose faith in people who lose your trust. Because they have wronged you, or have proven untrustworthy. The mere fact Phart believes sfaith can be lost proves Phart believed God musty be untrustworthy, or unable to continue to prove faithful to those who trusted him with the most important part of their eternity (salvation)

Phart thinks he can overpower God and stop believing, and as such, lose the salvation which God gave him freely. Thus even though he Denys it, He teaches salvation must be earned by the power of the believer remaining in faith.

Peoiplke who KNOW God and TRUST God do not stop believing, they see Gods faithfulness every day, and their faith only grows. (Yes, they will have doubts, and they will have a lack of faith in areas of their life. But they will NEVER stop trusting God because GOD IS FAITHFUL

 

[TruthTalk]

Can a Christian achieve sinless perfection?

There has been a lot of talk about this subject going on for weeks now. Many here already know the answer to this question but there are still a few people who are undecided. This article is from a well known apologetics website called CARM, 'Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry. I think the 2 or 3 minutes to read this article will be of benefit for everyone, well maybe not all.
God bless

by Matt Slick
5/10/16

No, a Christian cannot achieve sinless perfection; that is, on this side of heaven. Though there are Christians who say they do not sin anymore, they are in error. In order to achieve a sinless state of perfection, the Christian's motivations would have to be pure and perfect at all times because God looks at the condition of the heart as well as our actions. Consider the following verses.

• Matthew 5:28, "but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
• Matthew 22:37, "And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’"
• Matthew 22:39, "'The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’"

We see that Jesus taught that the intention of the heart is important to God. This is because God's heart is perfect. He is holy which is why He says in 1 Peter 1:16, "Be holy, for I am holy." God is the standard of holiness, and Jesus reveals the necessity of the perfect standard.

Can any Christian say that his heart is perfect and that he never falters? That he never looks upon a woman with impure thoughts? That he loves the Lord God with all of his heart, and that he loves his neighbor as himself, all with a perfect state of mind? The standard is absolute purity. None of us can claim that.
But there are those who say the Bible says we do not sin.

• 1 John 3:6, "No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him."
• 1 John 3:9, "No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
• 1 John 5:18, "We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him."

The Bible is not saying that we don't sin. Those verses in 1 John are talking about abiding in sin. That is not what Christians do. In fact, 1 John earlier in the same epistle states the following.

• 1 John 1:8, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us."
• 1 John 2:1, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

Notice that John the apostle includes himself in the issue of sinning. Are the sinless perfectionist people more holy than John the apostle? I think not.

So, a Christian is to struggle against his sin and to see this before God. But we cannot say that every intention of our hearts is always perfect and pure. If it were, we would not need an intercessor before God once we are saved. The idea of sinless perfectionism is an error that is refuted by Scripture.

Attribute: https://carm.org/can-a-christian-achieve-sinless-perfection

 

[VCO]

Please expand and state why PHart does not believe?

I will insert my opinion too, if you do not mind. THE WORD BELIEVE in the GREEK and THE HEBREW, has a much deeper meaning than in English. It means to put your TOTAL TRUST on what or WHOM you BELIEVE. PHart, Does NOT put His TOTAL TRUST ON JESUS, he puts an ENORMOUS amount of his TRUST in himself, being able to KEEP himself Saved.

 

[PHart]

Because Phart does not believe Jesus can keep his people from falling, as Jesus promised under any circumstance he will.

I do believe that Jesus keeps his own. That promise is to those who are indeed his very own, not who have departed from him in a return to the world in unbelief. The promises only apply to those who are presently believing.

Phart also does not believe God will do everything in his power to give all his children reason to have faith. You only lose faith in people who lose your trust. Because they have wronged you, or have proven untrustworthy. The mere fact Phart believes sfaith can be lost proves Phart believed God musty be untrustworthy, or unable to continue to prove faithful to those who trusted him with the most important part of their eternity (salvation)

This is such a meaningless argument because people don't necessarily depart from trust in Christ because they question his trustworthiness, but because they love the wages of sin more than they do the gift of life.

Phart thinks he can overpower God and stop believing, and as such, lose the salvation which God gave him freely.

I had the power to believe or not to believe when he called me. So what's this talk about not having any power? (Don't forget, you have made it a point that you are not Calvinist).

Thus even though he Denys it, He teaches salvation must be earned by the power of the believer remaining in faith.

And the scripture that says 'believing' is a work of the damnable works gospel is where again?

Oh, that's right. Nobody has been able to produce it to prove their claim that 'believing' is me trying to earn my own salvation.

Peoiplke who KNOW God and TRUST God do not stop believing, they see Gods faithfulness every day, and their faith only grows. (Yes, they will have doubts, and they will have a lack of faith in areas of their life. But they will NEVER stop trusting God because GOD IS FAITHFUL

Someday you may meet someone who you knew for a fact used to believe but who does not now. And it may be you! Do not be arrogant, for God will cut you out of the tree unbelief, too. So fear, and don't be arrogant, as Paul exhorts us in Romans 11.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, there is hope for me, because my sin is covered by the blood of Christ because I continue to believe in it. But a willful return to the world in unbelief will most certainly separate me from the grace of God I presently have.



Everybody who thinks grace can not be forfeited by what you say, think, do, or believe is saying grace is a license to sin.

There is one thing that will most assuredly forfeit the grace of God in your life: a return to unbelief. Not your doubt, not your struggle with sin. Your return to outright unbelief. You can not continue to have the grace of God in Christ that you no longer believe and trust in. That is the one place that grace will not go. It will not follow you back into unbelief.

Now, you can believe that nothing, including unbelief, can separate the believer from the grace of God, or you can believe that God will never let you do that which separates you from God, but both beliefs destroy OSAS doctrine.

So, which one do you give as the reason why a person can never lose their salvation? Do you say it's because there is nothing that you can do or believe to lose salvation? If so, then you saying grace is a license to sin. And if you say it's because God won't let you do that which forfeits your salvation then you believe there really is something that can separate you from your salvation. So, which one do you believe?


You said it, not me, lol.

I am forced to wonder about the person who makes grace a license to willfully continue in sin and still be saved no matter what. They may be just uneducated about the truth of the matter, or, as you say, they simply do not have a saving relationship with God. The real test is in how they handle being corrected about the matter. Offense and accusations of 'judging' are important signals of that person's relationship with God. I know this from years of talking to unbelievers in the workplace.

I usually understand you but you lost me here...
A man who has actually met God knows He exists. That's different from just hoping He exists. I don't think it is possible to then unbelieve what you know is true...

For a man who had religion but never met Him, I can see that scenario though.

 

[joefizz]

wow. I had to go back when I saw someone respond to your post to see what this was about. Sadly, From what I have seen from peter the last 2 years. This is just par for the course. He has been doing things like this to people who disagree with him, and for some reason, he is not held accountable. When you KNOW (as you said Peter did) things, yet still slander people based on this knowledge, something is wrong majorly wrong.

These things happen when you get desperate or have nothing else to argue with, it is called a smear campaign, and it is evil.

Thank you for bringing this to the light.

Yep yet somehow shaming someone or spitefulness aren't sins,right???I mean you can't do "evil" unto someone and do "perfect works" let alone "good works" right oh wait,some people still think so???
as I recall such people who "lie in wait with intent for hurt"are satan's children,not God's children.

 

[PHart]

I usually understand you but you lost me here...
A man who has actually met God knows He exists. That's different from just hoping He exists. I don't think it is possible to then unbelieve what you know is true...

For a man who had religion but never met Him, I can see that scenario though.

I will explain later, I have to go back to work from lunch.

The point is 'believing' as in trusting. Not just believing he exists. This is about trusting/believing. That is the belief that saves. You have to keep doing that believing to the very end to be saved in the very end.

 

[PeterJens]

This is beneath you peter. Way beneath you. His account was hacked and you know that. And WHY would you post trash and cursing and not give WARNING about what someone will see when they click those links? Why would you do that to someone??

I have a problem with someone whose character and language fits the profile of their
account. And why would anyone want to hack the account and post this kind of stuff?

Why should I believe anything has been hacked?
Do you really think someone whose whole intent is to slander, lie, twist, abuse, denigrate
in a forum without moderation would not use inappropriate language?

Do you really think people are so innocent?
Why is it the far right use christian type language and emblems?
Do you think that way of behaving is not represented in people who come to cc?

Wolves in sheeps clothing. Why do you think Jesus uses this description?
Because wolves are just innocent and are not present? lol

I remember one member claiming they did not support a particular belief.
I then showed his posts agreeing with the position, and was then told he was
quoting someone else, and he only partly agreed.

The line between honesty and truth, and falsehood is not being followed using
Jesus's principles.

Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

And the fact is, dc has to live with himself, but it is in the open.
I am not interested in digging any further, but you have got to be amazed at
the audacity of some people.

 

[Rokurac]

The Bible is not saying that we don't sin. Those verses in 1 John are talking about abiding in sin. That is not what Christians do. In fact, 1 John earlier in the same epistle states the following.

Now we must define "abiding"

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

That's it peter? That's all? No apology for those who clicked on that link and had to read the filth with no warning from you as to its content? No apology from you to those who clicked on it thinking it would be something wholesome because they trusted you? Do you know this will probably get you banned?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I will explain later, I have to go back to work from lunch.

The point is 'believing' as in trusting. Not just believing he exists. This is about trusting/believing. That is the belief that saves. You have to keep doing that believing to the very end to be saved in the very end.

Whatever is not of trust is sin. I have struggled with mistrust in areas. He didn't drop me- He brought me through the struggle of mistrust.

PSH! Now I have to wait for your answer??

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I usually understand you but you lost me here...
A man who has actually met God knows He exists. That's different from just hoping He exists. I don't think it is possible to then unbelieve what you know is true...

For a man who had religion but never met Him, I can see that scenario though.

Yes, as the Bible says, many people had religion, and they would end up leaving, because they never experienced the true power and love of God to keep them believing. ,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep yet somehow shaming someone or spitefulness aren't sins,right???I mean you can't do "evil" unto someone and do "perfect works" let alone "good works" right oh wait,some people still think so???
as I recall such people who "lie in wait with intent for hurt"are satan's children,not God's children.

I think some of it comes from a religious mentality. The fear of missing out is so great, you end up being blinded by religion. And you have to attack people you think are worse than you, just so you can feel better about yourself.

 

[joefizz]

I usually understand you but you lost me here...
A man who has actually met God knows He exists. That's different from just hoping He exists. I don't think it is possible to then unbelieve what you know is true...

For a man who had religion but never met Him, I can see that scenario though.

One must consider the "wisdom" evil wisdom seems wise but it's all about clouding what you say in order to make a point without having one in order to cause others to stumble and fall,God's wisdom which is true,is spoken with passion,boldness,and more is understood clearly overtime,and it helps to light our path to guide us to do right,therein lies the difference,satan's wisdom benefits the prideful,selfish and unwilling to change,God's wisdom benefits those who are honest to themselves and God when they come to realize they are sinners and all that Jesus has done for them accepting him as master and saviour for hope of salvation and to do right for him and one another,not merely seeking for to do for their selves as with satan's abominable followers.

 

[loveme1]

Because Phart does not believe Jesus can keep his people from falling, as Jesus promised under any circumstance he will.

Phart also does not believe God will do everything in his power to give all his children reason to have faith. You only lose faith in people who lose your trust. Because they have wronged you, or have proven untrustworthy. The mere fact Phart believes sfaith can be lost proves Phart believed God musty be untrustworthy, or unable to continue to prove faithful to those who trusted him with the most important part of their eternity (salvation)

Phart thinks he can overpower God and stop believing, and as such, lose the salvation which God gave him freely. Thus even though he Denys it, He teaches salvation must be earned by the power of the believer remaining in faith.

Peoiplke who KNOW God and TRUST God do not stop believing, they see Gods faithfulness every day, and their faith only grows. (Yes, they will have doubts, and they will have a lack of faith in areas of their life. But they will NEVER stop trusting God because GOD IS FAITHFUL

You do realise you have just proposed because Phart does not conform to your beliefs that you deem he is in unbelief..

GOD is Faithful.. goes without saying and true without our announcement but always good to say it aloud.

GOD keeps us by His Power.. lost and dead in our tresspasses otherwise.

GOD keeps His Promises.. always and forever.

Is PHart not just stating that we are to continue in belief?

and I consider you think once we first believe that the deal is done and can not be nulled?

My thought is that we can fall into unbelief.. draw back.. start off but not water the seed so GOD can give increase.. and yet GOD is powerful and Faithful always.. but we are to continue to Grow in Grace and knowledge of Christ and to love, trust and obey.. a lifelong commitment of engagement before the Marriage .. The Bridegroom is Worthy and Faithful.. the bride needs to be ready through their Faith.