The Rapture

[SovereignGrace]

Is Rapture biblical? Christians need to stop with these nonbiblical trems.

That's a bit harsh of a post there, Sissy. The word 'rapture' is not there, but the word 'parousia' is the Greek word which means 'the future visible return from heaven of Jesus, to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the kingdom of God'. So, there is a 'rapture' of the body of the Christ, which is in the Greek ekklesia, but its post-trib and not pre-trib, IMO of course.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Is Rapture biblical? Christians need to stop with these nonbiblical trems.

Hello TrueHebrew3!

The word "Rapare" which is where the word "Rapture" is derived from, is found in the Latin. The Greek is "Harpazo" which means the same thing i.e. "a snatching away, to be caught up, force suddenly exercised." So it is Biblical. Both words refer to the dead in Christ being resurrected and the living in Christ being changed with both groups being "caught up" forcefully.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

The words translated "Caught up" in the scripture above is the word "Harpazo." And it is in the clouds that they are being caught up to.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I just started to study the rapture and the tribulation few days ago. I came across what every Christian is debating about. I alone believe in the mid tribulation rapture. I just want to get your view on this if you are pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib rapture believer. THANKS AND GOD BLESS

Greetings 2nicee,

The problem with the mid-trib view of the church being gathered, is the same problem for the post-trib which is, the wrath of God.

Scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath (1 Thes.5:9), that Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath (1 thes.1:10) and that the Lord will keep out out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world, which is another designation for the time of God's wrath.

The other reason for this, which is an underlying principle is that, Jesus took upon himself the wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon those believing in Christ.

All that said, the church must be removed prior to God's wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as whatever plagues of wrath the two witnesses preform.

The wrath of God is the barrier when it comes to the timing of the gathering of the church. Therefore, in studying the gathering of the church, it would be a good idea to study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments in order to get a good idea of the severity and magnitude of God's wrath and why the church cannot go through that time of wrath.

 

[MattforJesus]

The wrath of God is not poured out on the world until the 7 years period is over.

The first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world,so the wrath of God is not going against them,and the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and has power to rule for the last three and one half years,so the wrath of God is not going against them,so how can the beast have power to rule of the wrath of God is going against them.

The 7 trumpets is not the wrath of God,which the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to repent of their sins,and turn to God,for He is giving them a chance to be right with Him for the first three and one half years,but after the 6th trumpet they do not turn to Him,so He gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

Which the first three and one half years will be the time they will not endure the truth of the Bible,but according to the new age movement interpretation of the Bible,and at the end of the three and one half years,and they do not turn to God,will be the falling away first,and the transgressors are come to the full,then a king of fierce countenance,and understanding dark sentences shall stand up,and deceive all people who do not love God.

Which the Bible says the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,the first three and one half years,and the man of sin claims to be God.

But then the beast makes war against the saints,and prevails against them,and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years,and destroys the mighty and holy people,and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father,when he shall have put down all rule,and authority,and power,and then the wrath of God will be poured upon the world leading up to the world attacking the Jews for they now hold the testimony of Jesus,which Jesus said they will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

If the 2 witnesses were to turn Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah during the first three and one half years.

The fulness of the Gentiles would of not be come in yet at the beginning of the first three and one half years,and Israel is blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,and salvation is still available to the Gentiles for the first three and one half years,for Israel to be sent the two witnesses.

The beast would of attacked Israel in the middle of the 7 years period,but does not until after the 7 years period.

They would of seen Jesus at the middle of the 7 years period,but do not see Him until the battle of Armageddon when He saves them,which is after the 7 years period.

Paul said the gathering of the saints does not occur until the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.

When they say Peace and safety is when the Gentile nations come together,and the ten horn kingdom,and unified religious system come in to play,which starts the first three and one half years,and Paul tells the saints they will not be deceived by it so the saints are still on earth.

Salvation is still available to the Gentiles for the first three and one half years,so the saints will remain on earth.

Jesus said He will deliver the saints from the temptation that shall come upon the whole world,to try them that dwell on earth,so the saints are on earth when the first three and one half years starts.

 

[Ahwatukee]

The first three and one half years salvation is still available to the world,so the wrath of God is not going against them,and the beast has power over all nations,kindreds,and tongues,and has power to rule for the last three and one half years,so the wrath of God is not going against them,so how can the beast have power to rule of the wrath of God is going against them.

"When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


In the middle of the seven years Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth, which is the result of the 7th trumpet/3rd woe. Therefore, since the 7th trumpet takes place at the beginning of the last 3 1/2 years, then the previous seals and trumpets must take place during the first 3 1/2 years. The wrath of God is poured out during the entire seven years leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

Jesus said He will deliver the saints from the temptation that shall come upon the whole world,to try them that dwell on earth,so the saints are on earth when the first three and one half years starts.

Actually Jesus said that he would keep the church, those who are victorious, out of the hour of trial that is coming upon the whole world. The saints mentioned after Rev.4 and first mentioned in 5:8, is referring to the great tribulation saints and not the church. The church will have been gathered prior to the first seal being opened.

Paul said the gathering of the saints does not occur until the man of sin claims to be God in the middle of the 7 years period,and they are given in to his hands for three and one half years.

I have studied this verse inside out and upside down. The reason for the confusion regarding this scripture is not discerning Paul's change from "the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him" to his reference to "the day of the Lord."

Paul begins with "Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. "

The gathering of the church is what initiates the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God which follows the gathering of the church. The restrainer, which is the Holy Spirit, is currently holding back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness. When the Holy Spirit as the restrainer is removed, then the church must also be removed and that because the Holy Spirit indwells all believers. There the order is as follows:

1). The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

2). The man of lawlessness is revealed

3). The wrath of God

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to the Father,when he shall have put down all rule,and authority,and power,and then the wrath of God will be poured upon the world leading up to the world attacking the Jews for they now hold the testimony of Jesus,which Jesus said they will not see Him again until they say blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord.

The scripture states that Jesus will hand over the kingdom when he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. Well, according to scripture, the last enemy to be destroyed is death, as described in 1 Cor.15:26. Regarding this, death is not destroyed until the great white throne judgment which takes place during the great white throne judgment, which takes place after the millennial kingdom as described in Rev.20:14. Therefore, Christ does not hand over the kingdom until then.

 

[Endoscopy]

So, you ignored the proof that I gave you. Immediately after Paul outlines the gathering of the church, he then speaks about the tribulation referred to as the "sudden destruction" that comes upon them like a woman in birth pains. If you can't make the connection, then continue believing what you will. I'm just trying to give you the benefit of years of study on end-time events.

Below Paul mentions the Tribulation/wrath of God/day of the Lord/hour of trial, all referring to the same time of wrath, which follows the gathering of the church outlined in 1 Thes.4:13-18:

"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

Please pay attention to mentioning of "the day of the Lord" and the destruction that will come upon them suddenly which they will not escape. This is the tribulation that is being spoken of, the time of God's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 = The gathering of the church

1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 = Reference to the God's wrath as sudden destruction, which follows the gathering of church.

When studying end time events all related scripture must be read and understood. While much of it is clear the symbolism in Daniel and Revelation causes much uncertainty.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is Rapture biblical? Christians need to stop with these nonbiblical trems.

This is a non-issue. It is a biblical term in that the Latin Vulgate has it correctly as rapiemur, from which rapture is derived in English. "Rapture" is simply a concise way of saying "caught up together" which is exactly what the Greek harpagesometha means. This word has several meanings, but in context it means to snatch out or away. The more important thing is the truth about the Rapture, or the Translation of the saints. Just as Enoch was translated to Heaven and did not see death, many Christians will have the very same experience. That is an amazing truth, so let's not get side-tracked by objecting to the word "Rapture".

 

[Allenbee]

Hello Endoscopy;
You ask; And which eschatological view of Revelation does this fit into. All end times prophecies need to fit together. That jigsaw puzzle putting them together correctly is a mind bender. Have fun working on that puzzle. Been there done that. Looking at just one like this makes it seem easy. Putting in with ALL end times prophecies makes it difficult. To come up with a doctrine all verses in context on a particular issue have to be studied.

I have had great fun with this puzzle for over 20 years now, and yes...all end time prophesy fits perfectly.
Would you like to see Math 24 fit Rev 12 and ALL the end time prophets... BUT not taught by ANY Church.

First see if you agree with this please.
Do you agree Yeshua (Jesus) is the lion from the tribe of JUDAH, and our MESSIAH.
I'm sure you do.

So I don't loose our Hebrew roots as sons of Abraham, and therefore conclude our Messiah's followers at His first appearance are the new tribe of Judah, because the scepter will never pass from Judah, though King David as Jesus is from the line of David. (The records of the old line of Judah was burnt with the temple, as they rejected and killed our Lord).

Gen 49v10; "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; (Messiah) and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".

So now read Rev 7 and see JUDAH as believers in our Lord, as is the great crowd.
The other 11 tribes are Jewish bloodline but also believers in our Lord.
That is how the two sticks are joined and become ONE. Israel and JUDAH.
So too with the two witnesses. Jew and gentile in Messiah, as it was at HIS first appearance.

The only JEWS who will escape the pending hit on Jerusalem will be the FAST growing Messianic Jews who WILL "flee to the mountains"...or die, or lick their wounds having suffered huge loss of loved ones and only now become Messianic Jews. OUR LORD RULES OVER ALL NATIONS.

16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (Not sure if the resurected David rules under our Lord who rules the earth from earth's heavens ???) Not too important as great news [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]either-way[/FONT].

(Sorry these sizes are jumping around) and "5 second" edit...not on !!!
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
ON EARTH.

Come Lord Jesus... come. (Please)
Yes...i do believe a bride only is raptured to heaven immediately after the tribulation of those days.
28

 

[Endoscopy]

Hello Endoscopy;
You ask; And which eschatological view of Revelation does this fit into. All end times prophecies need to fit together. That jigsaw puzzle putting them together correctly is a mind bender. Have fun working on that puzzle. Been there done that. Looking at just one like this makes it seem easy. Putting in with ALL end times prophecies makes it difficult. To come up with a doctrine all verses in context on a particular issue have to be studied.

I have had great fun with this puzzle for over 20 years now, and yes...all end time prophesy fits perfectly.
Would you like to see Math 24 fit Rev 12 and ALL the end time prophets... BUT not taught by ANY Church.

First see if you agree with this please.
Do you agree Yeshua (Jesus) is the lion from the tribe of JUDAH, and our MESSIAH.
I'm sure you do.

So I don't loose our Hebrew roots as sons of Abraham, and therefore conclude our Messiah's followers at His first appearance are the new tribe of Judah, because the scepter will never pass from Judah, though King David as Jesus is from the line of David. (The records of the old line of Judah was burnt with the temple, as they rejected and killed our Lord).

Gen 49v10; "The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; (Messiah) and unto him shall the gathering of the people be".

So now read Rev 7 and see JUDAH as believers in our Lord, as is the great crowd.
The other 11 tribes are Jewish bloodline but also believers in our Lord.
That is how the two sticks are joined and become ONE. Israel and JUDAH.
So too with the two witnesses. Jew and gentile in Messiah, as it was at HIS first appearance.

The only JEWS who will escape the pending hit on Jerusalem will be the FAST growing Messianic Jews who WILL "flee to the mountains"...or die, or lick their wounds having suffered huge loss of loved ones and only now become Messianic Jews. OUR LORD RULES OVER ALL NATIONS.

16Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
17And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
18And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?
19Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
20And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
21And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever. (Not sure if the resurected David rules under our Lord who rules the earth from earth's heavens ???) Not too important as great news either-way.

(Sorry these sizes are jumping around) and "5 second" edit...not on !!!
26Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
ON EARTH.

Come Lord Jesus... come. (Please)
Yes...i do believe a bride only is raptured to heaven immediately after the tribulation of those days.
28

I have studied all end times prophecies for years. With the symbolism in Daniel and Revelation with other sections in the Bible as well it becomes impossible to make a single point of view of the entire eschatology. Much of the symbolism can be viewed in more than one way. The result is theologians working with this for centuries have created four different eschatologyical concepts. These same theologians do not have that problem with the rest of the Bible. Have you bothered to look at the different views or just what you want to believe. As an elder my church had classes on different theological issues for those elected to elder and deacon. This was one of the issues taught. Your view of the verses quoted were discussed. Why do you think no one else looked at them. The problem is there are other sections of the same issue that need to be included.

You have a terminology problem. There are 12 Tribes of Israel plus the Levites who were intermixed. In fact genetical marker has been found for Levites. Judah was both one tribe and a country. The country also held the tribe of Benjiman. Levites were among the 12 Tribes as the religious leaders. So does your Judah only mean that tribe or those who lived in Judah? The first time the word Jew was used was when the king of Israel referred to the country of Judah. So which Tribes of Israel do the Jews belong to?

 

[Allenbee]

I have studied all end times prophecies for years.

No fella...you definitely have not studied all end time prophesy as an untainted Bible student.
By your own admission THIS is what you have studied ; theologians working with this for centuries have created four different eschatologyical concepts. Created from what !!! From Constantine's mixing of pagan with truth ?

Seems you lot turn a blind eye to how the true Ecclesia has been corrupted since the 1st century.
Who do you think Babylon the great harlot is if not the DIVIDED, CORRUPTED Christianity of today.
The trillion Dollar CHURCH BUSINESS of today is Far worse than Israels stray from true worship... causing the destruction at 70 AD.

Prophesy proves my point;

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Private Bible study... NOT Church traditional teachings).

Rev 1; [FONT=&quot]Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
..................................................................................

[/FONT]Does anyone know if there is an original Hebrew New Testament ? From this I need a word for word English version.
NOT Hebrew to English where the Hebrew is translated from Greek. Thats back to corrupted square one.[FONT=&quot]



[/FONT]

 

[Endoscopy]

I have studied all end times prophecies for years.

No fella...you definitely have not studied all end time prophesy as an untainted Bible student.
By your own admission THIS is what you have studied ; theologians working with this for centuries have created four different eschatologyical concepts. Created from what !!! From Constantine's mixing of pagan with truth ?

Seems you lot turn a blind eye to how the true Ecclesia has been corrupted since the 1st century.
Who do you think Babylon the great harlot is if not the DIVIDED, CORRUPTED Christianity of today.
The trillion Dollar CHURCH BUSINESS of today is Far worse than Israels stray from true worship... causing the destruction at 70 AD.

Prophesy proves my point;

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. (Private Bible study... NOT Church traditional teachings).

Rev 1;Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
..................................................................................

Does anyone know if there is an original Hebrew New Testament ? From this I need a word for word English version.
NOT Hebrew to English where the Hebrew is translated from Greek. Thats back to corrupted square one.

Your diatribe demonstrates your bias and hatred for those who disagree with you. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings but you just demonstrated your ignorance of the historical evidence of the original language of the Bible. Basically the Old Testament is in Hebrew while the New Testament is in Greek. Textus Receptus is the original Greek text. It dates back to the 4th century in the Byzantine Empire. The Hebrew texts have come down to us from two different paths. The traditional Jewish one and recently the Samaritan opened their text since there are not many left. Partial texts from earlier and texts of the New Testament can be reconstructed from letters dating back then. There are only a few verses in Corinthians are not in the letters. So even without the manuscripts almost all of New Testament is known. The texts coming out of these letters have been compared to the Textus Receptus and are identical.

Oops the original Textus Receptus is in Greek not Hebrew.

Where did you get the foolish idea the new Testament was in Hebrew. There is most likely it translated into Hebrew for Israel. That is their official language. You need to get better informed before ranting foolishness!!!

 

[Endoscopy]

PS
There are thousands of fragments of ancient texts. A fragment can be a few words to a few words broken into from the full manuscript. They have photographs of of all the fragments. They were using them as a jigsaw puzzle. Somewhat recently they put them in a computer and the computer demonstrated a mistake doing it by hand had created. So now all of the fragments are now put together as best it can be. These texts are then compared to the original language texts. Sometimes very minor discrepancies are found. To date no discrepancies change anything of the meaning of the texts. Mostly spelling errors.

 

[Allenbee]

Where did you get the foolish idea the new Testament was in Hebrew

I just know it must have been, BECAUSE, the whole New Testament is about this Jew from the tribe of Judah, and not about a Greek freak. (Yes I do know Greek was common to spread the good news).

Mary spoke Hebrew and Jesus read from the Hebrew scriptures. ALL his disciples were Jews not Greeks, so to think the New Testament was never written in Hebrew, is ridiculous to me. We are at end times now and I bet a copy will be found, even though Christian leaders burnt all Bibles and persecuted and killed anyone found with one.
Ain't Christian Church leaders great. Crusades etc etc even wars...today !
Far far removed from the Lord's day.

Why do I think it important to find the original Hebrew ?

BECAUSE DEFINITELY the GREEK scriptures have been tampered with to suit satan's deceptions... through these Popes or whatever. And I get called foolish !!! Thanks Pastor Elder Church slave.

The rest of you Bible students know very well we have to use many different Bibles and even word for word Greek to English to TRY to find the TRUE meaning of scripture.

Just ONE word can change your Bible study for scripture to interpret scripture.

Eg;Math 24 v 8; "all these things are a beginning of sorrows...OK so we just move on.
BUT..."all these things are a beginning of birth pains" !!! Ahhhhh...bells start ringing.

Isaiah 66; Birth pains...a NATION and a LAND born in a day. (The result of "Flee to the mountains" at Math 24;16, for the first 3 1/2 years). No rapture yet.

Rev 12; The woman screaming in birth pains gives birth to our Lord. Sovereign issue concluded by man. (Geneses 3;15).
The woman "flies to the wilderness" AWAY from the cast down satan. Here the woman (true Christian flock) is protected by our Lord who leads the wrath of God for the final 3 1\2 years. (At this time there is a rapture for a CHOSEN bride). Math 24;

[h=3]29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, ( Rev 12; satan and his angels cast down)
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (War in heaven)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So... some in heaven to rule with our Lord, and a great crowd on earth for the millennial reign.
[/h]

 

[Ahwatukee]

BECAUSE DEFINITELY the GREEK scriptures have been tampered with to suit satan's deceptions... through these Popes or whatever. And I get called foolish !!! Thanks Pastor Elder Church slave.

Greetings Allenbee,

If the Greek scriptures that we have today were not reliable, then no one would have the word of God. But God is powerful enough to insure that we have the truth of His word. I study the Interlinear, and compare the major translations with many scriptures and I have not seen any of them that really take away the meaning of the context, except for maybe "God's Word translation," which is a bias translation.

Rev 12; The woman screaming in birth pains gives birth to our Lord. Sovereign issue concluded by man. (Geneses 3;15). The woman "flies to the wilderness" AWAY from the cast down Satan. Here the woman (true Christian flock) is protected by our Lord who leads the wrath of God for the final 3 1\2 years. (At this time there is a rapture for a CHOSEN bride). Math 24;

You speak of scripture interpreting scripture, which I agree with, therefore you ought to take your own advice. That said, if you use scripture to interpret scripture, then the woman must be symbolic representing Israel and not the church. For Joseph's dream in Gen.37:9-9 reveals the symbolism of the sun to represent Jacob, the moon = wives and eleven stars = Jacobs sons with Joseph being twelfth star. Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelves stars is symbolic representing Israel.

Also, the woman/Israel is not giving literal birth to Christ and the "Male Child" is not a literal child being born. The "Male Child" is a collective name for the 144,000 who come out of unbelieving Israel (gives birth to) who recognize Jesus as their Messiah. Rev.14:4 says that these 144,000 are those who did not defile themselves with women, which would make them all males, ergo, male child. The 144,000 as the male child will be caught up to God and his throne in the middle of the seven years as found in Rev.12:5." In relation to this, the church will have been gathered at least 3 1/2 years prior to when the male child is caught up and that because the church must be removed prior to the beginning of God's wrath.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, ( Rev 12; satan and his angels cast down) and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (War in heaven)

The scripture in Rev.12 is clear that Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth in the middle of the seven. This is supported by the fact that when Satan is cast down to the earth, the woman flees out into the wilderness where she is cared for 1260 days, which is the last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. Satan and his angels will be restricted to the earth during that last 3 1/2 years, which is the result of the sounding of the 7th trumpet and is the 3rd woe.

What does happen after the tribulation of those days when Christ returns to the earth to end the age is that Satan will be seized and thrown into the Abyss where he will remain during the entire thousand years.

So... some in heaven to rule with our Lord, and a great crowd on earth for the millennial reign.

Those who will be in heaven during the time of God's wrath will be the bride/church who will be in their glorified and immortal bodies and will be returning with Christ to the earth to end the age. Those who are here during the thousand years will be the great tribulation saints who are from every tribe, nation, people and language making them Gentiles. The others will be the remnant of unbelieving Israel (the woman) who will cared for out in the wilderness for that last 3 1/2 years.

 

[Endoscopy]

Where did you get the foolish idea the new Testament was in Hebrew

I just know it must have been, BECAUSE, the whole New Testament is about this Jew from the tribe of Judah, and not about a Greek freak. (Yes I do know Greek was common to spread the good news).

Mary spoke Hebrew and Jesus read from the Hebrew scriptures. ALL his disciples were Jews not Greeks, so to think the New Testament was never written in Hebrew, is ridiculous to me. We are at end times now and I bet a copy will be found, even though Christian leaders burnt all Bibles and persecuted and killed anyone found with one.
Ain't Christian Church leaders great. Crusades etc etc even wars...today !
Far far removed from the Lord's day.

Why do I think it important to find the original Hebrew ?

BECAUSE DEFINITELY the GREEK scriptures have been tampered with to suit satan's deceptions... through these Popes or whatever. And I get called foolish !!! Thanks Pastor Elder Church slave.

The rest of you Bible students know very well we have to use many different Bibles and even word for word Greek to English to TRY to find the TRUE meaning of scripture.

Just ONE word can change your Bible study for scripture to interpret scripture.

Eg;Math 24 v 8; "all these things are a beginning of sorrows...OK so we just move on.
BUT..."all these things are a beginning of birth pains" !!! Ahhhhh...bells start ringing.

Isaiah 66; Birth pains...a NATION and a LAND born in a day. (The result of "Flee to the mountains" at Math 24;16, for the first 3 1/2 years). No rapture yet.

Rev 12; The woman screaming in birth pains gives birth to our Lord. Sovereign issue concluded by man. (Geneses 3;15).
The woman "flies to the wilderness" AWAY from the cast down satan. Here the woman (true Christian flock) is protected by our Lord who leads the wrath of God for the final 3 1\2 years. (At this time there is a rapture for a CHOSEN bride). Math 24;

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, ( Rev 12; satan and his angels cast down)
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: (War in heaven)
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

So... some in heaven to rule with our Lord, and a great crowd on earth for the millennial reign.

You are ignorant of the language spoken in Israel when Jesus lived there. It was an offshoot of Hebrew and was spoken in Israel and areas north and east of it. The language was Aramiac. So go back and live in reality for a change. The educated could speak both since they were closely related. It became a language near Israel during the time of David and Solomon. They established a large kingdom and Aramaic was the unifying language.

 

[Issachar92]

Why do I think it important to find the original Hebrew ?

BECAUSE DEFINITELY the GREEK scriptures have been tampered with to suit satan's deceptions... through these Popes or whatever. And I get called foolish !!! Thanks Pastor Elder Church slave.

Ahem. We do have for example the gospel of Matthew in hebrew, its not nearly as old as the greek manuscripts, but it still matches with the greek. (ive checked!)

The bible people were using in Jesus' day was the septuagint, which is a greek translation from around 100BC. Many many jews didnt even speak hebrew in the 1st century, greek and aramaic were widely used.

The greek new testament is reliable, because Paul wrote in greek, or do ya think them galatians spoke hebrew? There is nothing inheretenly evil with greek, english or any other language. If it aint reliable, then we might as well throw our bibles in the trash and start worshiping a rock. Its an all or nothing deal with the bible.
I pick up my King James Bible and i believe its what the originals said translated to english.

 

[heartofdavid]

John 14:1-3 is a promise tha Jesus will come back = second coming

1 thes 4:13-18 same above

1 chor 15:51-53 same above

Matt 24:29-31 same above Tel me what the different? Same event different detail and different journalist.

White horses

Read rev 14,and mat 25.

Second coming on white horses. But no white horses at harvest.

Rev 14 and mat 25,not only have no horses,there is no room for horses.

Therefore what you guys call " 2 second comings" is simply a gathering,them Jesus COMING with his saints.

Rev 14. Read rev 14

 

[heartofdavid]

Ahem. We do have for example the gospel of Matthew in hebrew, its not nearly as old as the greek manuscripts, but it still matches with the greek. (ive checked!)

The bible people were using in Jesus' day was the septuagint, which is a greek translation from around 100BC. Many many jews didnt even speak hebrew in the 1st century, greek and aramaic were widely used.

The greek new testament is reliable, because Paul wrote in greek, or do ya think them galatians spoke hebrew? There is nothing inheretenly evil with greek, english or any other language. If it aint reliable, then we might as well throw our bibles in the trash and start worshiping a rock. Its an all or nothing deal with the bible.
I pick up my King James Bible and i believe its what the originals said translated to english.

I am guessing Hebrews was written in Hebrew.

Also,for s season the OT was in Latin

 

[Endoscopy]

The oldest complete text of the New Testament is Textus Receptus which dates to 400 AD. There are also several copies dated later. It is in Greek. Also letters written back and forth with quotes from the New Testament are in Greek. All of the New Testament except for a few verses in Corinthians are contained in the letters. In addition there are thousands of fragments of the New Testament exist predating the earliest Textus Receptus. All are in Greek. At that time Greek was the universal language like English is today. Hebrew at the time of Jesus was becoming the dead language it was until Israel resurrected it as their official language. Get your history of the languages spoken and written in at the time of Christ correct!!!

 

[heartofdavid]

The oldest complete text of the New Testament is Textus Receptus which dates to 400 AD. There are also several copies dated later. It is in Greek. Also letters written back and forth with quotes from the New Testament are in Greek. All of the New Testament except for a few verses in Corinthians are contained in the letters. In addition there are thousands of fragments of the New Testament exist predating the earliest Textus Receptus. All are in Greek. At that time Greek was the universal language like English is today. Hebrew at the time of Jesus was becoming the dead language it was until Israel resurrected it as their official language. Get your history of the languages spoken and written in at the time of Christ correct!!!

Pretty much so.

About 20 years ago I did some research. Greens interlinear was the best I could come up with.

(textus receptus)