Not By Works

[Studyman]

The assertion you made was that John the Baptist told the people they were teaching false doctrines. I would like to see those verses if you can show them to me. I did not ask for what Jesus said in that regard. As to being faultless under the law, Paul says it is garbage, yes? Righteousness is counted to us through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and His resurrection to life. You add to the Scriptures.

Who were the Pharisees?

Matt. 23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,2 Saying,
The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

So the Pharisees were the teachers were they not? They taught the people, Yes? What did they teach?

Mark 1:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.


5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7
Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Did John the Baptist know this?

Matt. 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:


9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Why would there be "Wrath to come" on the Mainstream Teachers of that time? Am I adding to the Word by accepting Christ's description of their doctrine?

Paul was a Pharisee, therefore, as Jesus said, He was a false teacher. He was a perfect Pharisee, he followed their "Doctrines and Traditions of man perfectly" as he said.

You are the one rejecting what a Pharisee is, rejecting that John the Baptist knew of their false teaching, and called for their repentance, and works worthy of repentance.

As for me, I am not a disciple of todays Mainstream Church with all it's doctrines and Commandments of men. I have faith in the Jesus of the Bible, not the long haired Levi Jean model that todays church has created as their god.

I have not added anything to the Gospel, I have just chosen to believe "ALL" scripture, and not just a few that can be used to support mans doctrines and traditions.

 

[BillG]

Whoa

hard taskmaster comes to mind.

Thats the law for you (and I don’t mean the 10 commandments)

 

[Rokurac]

Arent both sides saying the same thing in this debate i notice? One says if you are saved you will keep the commandments. Other says you must keep the commandments to be(or stay?) saved. End result is the same? Or is the issue on who you trust and glorify?

 

[Studyman]

it is not a matter of accepting verses or rejecting them. it is a matter of balancing Scripture. you and some others play games with Scripture, trying to pit the Bible against it's self.

you do know that chapters and verses were not added until the 1300's or so right? you know that men divided God's Word up into these right? you know that they were meant as reference points, not to individualize verses and build theology around them.

It is simple common courtesy to provide proof when you accuse someone of

"Playing games with Scripture, trying to pit the Bible against it's self."

One either believes and lives by "Every Word that proceeds from God" or one doesn't.

Remember, the last church or Congregation that came in God's name, Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own doctrines and tradition were rejected by Christ. They hated Him and ignored "Many" His Word's then.

Shall I forget this Biblical fact and continue in a religion the continues to "Transgress the Commandments of God by their own traditions"?

 

[BillG]

Prov. 15:8 The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Prov. 15:29 The LORD is far from the wicked: but he heareth the prayer of the righteous.

Prov. 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.


You should study these scriptures and determine what they mean. Then decide if you should include them in your understanding, or reject them.

In this way you are beholden to God and not the words of some man.

Hi a Studyman

That doesn’t really answer my question to PJW who said that God will not listen to until I stop sinning (that’s how it came accross)

I know you are trying to encourage others to read the bible and what it says for itself and follow that because that is true and not what man made doctrines say and I agree.

But we all need to realise that our interpretation can be wrong but may not know it. That’s why interaction with each other is important.

When I look at the verses you posted David comes to mind.

Proverbs 15:9-10
9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,
But He loves him who follows righteousness.
10 Harsh discipline is for him who forsakes the way,
And he who hates correction will die.

We find David, a man who sinned against God most of his life.
His sins led to many many deaths, adultery and a disfunctional family.

Yet we find God saying that he loves him becuase David was a man after his own heart.

David wasn’t wicked but did wicked things, he turned away from the law as a result of these wicked things therefore he turned his ear away from God.

But he always came back to God. He loved God and knew his righteousness he sought him out or should I say God sought him out.

But he didn’t hate the correction and he accepted the consequences of his wickedness before God.

God listened to the prayers of a man whom he loved and sought after him.

To me to say that God will not listen to a person who still sins and quotes with no biblical back up that Paul did not sin has not really researched what the bible is truly saying and what salvation is all about and what it means. Yet they post that on this thread.

Said person on response to my question “I thought the unforgivable sin was to reject Jesus, responded with not quite”

He came accross as saying “Unless we are sinless after conversion then that equates to the unforgivable sin”

 

[PJW]

You do know the KJV was not a TRANSLATION from the original language manuscripts, it was a paraphase to update the English Language and correct known errors in earlier English Language Bibles? The Original Translators admitted that in the Original 1611 KJV PREFACE. Here you can read it for yourself: http://www.kjvbibles.com/kjpreface.htm

It is a paraphrase that too many twist to allow sin in their lives.
At the same time, it is a paraphrase with God's blessing for those who do want to serve only Him.

 

[PJW]

OBEDIENCE FOR THE WRONG MOTIVE, is a pile of filthy rags.
The ONLY PURE MOTIVE, is to show our LOVE FOR HIM
John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, you will keep My commands.

AMEN!
Frankly, I can't think of any other reason, besides our love for God, to obey Him.

 

[PJW]

The saints are described as Keeping the Commandments of GOD and Having the Faith of Jesus.
Modern day theology leads to doubt and rejection of the simplicity in Christ for the im dead in my trespasses covered by the Righteousness of Christ.. sounds noble to the unbelieving ear.. yet Christ Himself teaches us to be Righteous and perfect.. to Keep the Commandments of GOD.. to cut off our hand if it cause us to sin... remove our eye... that is because it is by believing His Testament that we are Kept by the power of GOD.. believe Him above all else First and foremost.
If your mind reaches to a Paul said.. in place of what Christ said then you are yet to believe.
By the same Spirit all were inspired to elaborate and give examples of what the Messiah taught.
All perfectly placed to Teach and edify us believers.. but all affirm to the Testimony of the Messiah.
I fear that the True gospel is being called counterfeit.. saddened.. because the Gospel teaches Faith that worketh by Love.. and no one should be accused of wrong doing for their obedience to GOD.. but.. is that not what happens to all that believe GOD above men? Through the Old and New Testament from even Cain and Abel.. obedience seems to provoke hate and rage.. our Lord and Saviour did no wrong and was hated.. what should any who believe and Trust expect from the world? To be exalted and given a platform.. tv shows and riches befriending those in power? The True followers will be found in lowly places.. they will not sell out for power or riches.. they have their Good Shepherd as their example... the True King who walked with the poor and sick.. doing nothing but the will of His Father.. humbling indeed.
To those in Christ the True Church of GOD be Faithful always and love GOD and each other just as Christ did.. just as those who were to witness and proclaim the Gospel did.
Forgive as you are forgiven, have mercy as you have received mercy.. love even your enemies. Bring no charge against those that despise you.. be not a judge but a doer and may you and I be worthy to walk in white with the Lord in the Kingdom of GOD may we enter.
peace, love and Grace to you all and all Glory to Heavenly Father and our Lord and Saviour always and forever.

AMEN, and thanks for the exhortation.

 

[Studyman]

Arent both sides saying the same thing in this debate i notice? One says if you are saved you will keep the commandments. Other says you must keep the commandments to be(or stay?) saved. End result is the same? Or is the issue on who you trust and glorify?

Interesting question.

Given that the whole idea of a "New Covenant" came from the Old Testament, And given the Biblical fact that the God of the Bible said He would write HIS Laws on our hearts.

Wouldn't those of the New Covenant exhibit behavior reflecting this Biblical truth? And what if someone says they are part of the New Covenant, but exhibit behavior supporting some religious doctrine and tradition, while "Transgressing the Laws of God that are said to have been written on their hearts?

Isn't this the very foundation of Jesus' warning in:

Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Our fruits or works would expose whether or not it is the God of the OT's Laws written on our hearts, or some other god.

But whether the law are written before works worthy of repentance or after, the behavior that followed would be same.

Good question.

 

[PJW]

Blood is our salvation. Is our Passover experience of being born from above. Given eternal life. Pentecost is our sanctification when we are being taught Sonship to rule with Him by the Spirit and the gifts given. This is the Holy place of our tabernacle. (Body)
Tabernacles is the perfect coming. The Holy of Holies within. When the Presence of the Lord fills the house. Whose house are we.

My comments were in regard to the doctrine of "gradual sanctification".
Blood sanctifies, and is applied to us as we hang on the cross with Christ. (Rom 6:3-6)

 

[PJW]

Have you received the baptism of Holy Spirit since you believed? Can't do the works without this.

Yes I have, thanks for asking.
It is promised to those who repent, and are baptized in the name of Jesu Christ for the remission of their past sins. (Acts 2:38)

 

[PJW]

How is it when I read your post that psalm came to my mind? Compare what you wrote to the psalm I shared for my fellow sheep to discern whether they want the Good Shepherd leading them and comforted by His rod and staff or like you wrote as though you are free to roam and not be led on the path of Righteousness by the Good Shepherd..

If you are above the rest of us and wiser than we then let it be known that I remain a sheep being lead by the Good Shepherd the Bishop of my soul and be counted lower and unwise by your position always.

Come on guys.
I sense an argument brewing, when there is no difference between you.
The best, in Christ, will need and love our shepherd no matter how close we are to the center of the herd.

 

[PJW]

He brought it on himself for claiming to be sinless, 100% of the time.

We serve whom we love.

 

[PJW]

So to cut a long story short are you saying?

God will not listen to me or hear me until I am sinless?

It's not me. but scripture that says it.
John 9:31..."Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth."
1 Peter 3:12...For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil."
Job 8:20..."Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:"

 

[PJW]

apparently you cannot read.....GOD CHASTENS EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES....

What one word in that line refutes your stance?

Why would a just God chasten the innocent?

 

[Magenta]

Is it not the Holy Spirit of God that helps us see our sinful nature and need of Him?

 

[joefizz]

Why would a just God chasten the innocent?

Because he "cares" for all those who are his so he disciplines/chastens those that are his always to correct and for the person's overall good.

 

[PJW]

This is one of the most ignorant things you have said so far and to say WE and US does not include John takes the cake for ignorance and a few other words I will not mention!

It does make sense when you include the word "IF" beforehand.

"IF" we walk in traffic, we will get hit by a car.
"IF" we stay on the sidewalk, we will be safe.

"IF" we walk in the light, all our sin is washed away.
"IF" we walk in the darkness, we cannot say we have fellowship with God or His Son.

 

[BillG]

Interesting question.

Given that the whole idea of a "New Covenant" came from the Old Testament, And given the Biblical fact that the God of the Bible said He would write HIS Laws on our hearts.

Wouldn't those of the New Covenant exhibit behavior reflecting this Biblical truth? And what if someone says they are part of the New Covenant, but exhibit behavior supporting some religious doctrine and tradition, while "Transgressing the Laws of God that are said to have been written on their hearts?

Isn't this the very foundation of Jesus' warning in:

Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.


22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Our fruits or works would expose whether or not it is the God of the OT's Laws written on our hearts, or some other god.

But whether the law are written before works worthy of repentance or after, the behavior that followed would be same.

Good question.

Hebrews 10:16-18


16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,” 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” 18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
A New Covenant
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Ezekiel 36:26-28
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. 28 Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.

The 10 commandments written on stone will be written on our hearts.

The children of God will, having the Holy Spirit in them will produce fruit, in fact they want to grow in Jesus and manifest fruit (well at least I do). Some manifest friut quicker then others. A mature tree produces more fruit than an immature tree.
But God is the best Gardner in the world. Those attached to the vine he will prune to produce more fruit.



Those who profess to be a beliver but with no desire to bear fruit to me are not in the vine.

 

[PJW]

The last three posts of yours have proven you have no understanding and no need to even address a man who rejects the truth in favor of some sinless perfectionist ignorance!

it saddens me when I meet a man who doesn't want to serve Christ.
You can keep serving sin, but the outcome is rather bleak.