Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
No, he leaves you when you leave Him, not when you struggle with leaving Him. And even then I think he gives lots of space to you to reconsider before He turns you over to your decision to no longer believe and trust in Jesus.




Any doctrine that says you are saved no matter what (OSAS) is saying that grace is a license to sin. Think about it.

And as far as "grace out bounding ours sin when we fail", of course it does. But the one place it will not go is with you back into unbelief. That is the unforgivable sin, the sin of unbelief in the face of irrefutable truth. Grace is not a license to be in outright unbelief when you know better.
The unforgivable sin is to equate the work of Jesus to the power of the devil and not the Holy Spirit......and one who will not acknowledge the work of Jesus as from God cannot be forgiven......your view is not correct.

After faith if we believe not he ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself......end of story....every man, woman and child he begins a work of faith in will be brought to fruition....there is NO losing salvation after initial faith and to say such is to flat deny and equate Jesus to being an inept liar that cannot finish what he started and promised to finish....
 
P

PHart

Guest
If you are using these verses to prove Paul still committed sin after his conversion, you are in error.
The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.
BTW, verse 24 was answered in Romans 6:6.
This is the conclusion I myself have come to after reading this over and over for years. Paul is describing his old life of trying to relate to God in the Spirit-less way of law alone. He discovered that only Jesus could set him free from sin and cause him to do what he tried to do by the letter of the law alone.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,020
4,439
113
The unforgivable sin is to equate the work of Jesus to the power of the devil and not the Holy Spirit......and one who will not acknowledge the work of Jesus as from God cannot be forgiven......your view is not correct.

After faith if we believe not he ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself......end of story....every man, woman and child he begins a work of faith in will be brought to fruition....there is NO losing salvation after initial faith and to say such is to flat deny and equate Jesus to being an inept liar that cannot finish what he started and promised to finish....
I thought the unforgivable sin was to reject Jesus.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
I gave you my honest, where I stand answer....read it slowly....

A. The spirit is born of INCORRUPTABLE SEED by the SPIRIT OF GOD and does NOT SIN <---why we are eternally secure
B. The spirit is housed in a dead body of sin not subject unto the law of GOD and unless TRANSFORMED by the renewing of the mind will fall short every time and sin <---why we are chastised as children when we fail to walk worthy
C. The battle ground is the MIND <---Jesus said the SPIRIT is WILLING but the FLESH IS WEAK

The CORINTHAN reference is applicable unto the BODY and the DAY it is raised incorruptible, celestial, in power

ALL sin except JESUS...some more than others!
Hi Dcon, I agree with your statements. Seohce, "Are you a sinner", this is just more,
"faulty reasoning"

Christian's, true believer's, are on a "life long pursuit of holiness and service to God.", (our sanctification). The bible say's we will sin and if you do not believe this the truth is not in you. These sinless perfectionist people will have a rude awakening when Christ's return's for His Bride the Church.
......................................................................................................................................

Originally Posted by Seohce

ARE YOU STILL A SINNER OR NOT? PLEASE BE HONEST AND ANSWER MY SIMPLE QUESTION? I AM WAITING FOR YOUR HONEST ANSWER.

 
P

PHart

Guest
Do you even go to church yourself? I have my doubts.
Oh, just so you know, I'm Full Gospel Non-denominational.

Full Gospel means you consider ALL the words of scripture when seeking a living, daily relationship with God, and you do not go into the scriptures with the veil of a predetermined belief filtering what you read. You stay open to further refinements and teachings to what you already know.

You learn the truth and more of the truth that way. But the rut of a predetermined mindset of doctrine is exactly how you don't learn truth and even less so as you progress in that mindset. Emphasis on mindSET.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
Matthew 12:50, “For whoever does the desire of My Father who is in the heavens is My brother and sister and mother.”
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
I have long suspected that the local so-called Unitarian Church, is an ultra left wing political group, and not really a Church in any sense of the word. Yes, I know they deny the Deity Christ, so they do fall into the rhealm of a psuedo Christian Cult. The route I take to my Church on Sunday mornings, takes me right past the UNITARIANS building. They have a sign out front that their pastor changes every week. He puts up a popular saying, and the Sermon Title every week. I have lived here for 18 months, in all that Time, NOT EVEN ONCE have I seen the word CHRIST on that sign, and NOT EVEN ONE Bible quote. The vast majority of it has been popular left wing political quotes. AND TO TOP IT OFF, today's Political Surmon Title was: THE AGE OF TRUMP.

MORE, Signs of the TIMES, "even so come Lord Jesus."
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Oh, just so you know, I'm Full Gospel Non-denominational.

Full Gospel means you consider ALL the words of scripture when seeking a living, daily relationship with God, and you do not go into the scriptures with the veil of a predetermined belief filtering what you read. You stay open to further refinements and teachings to what you already know.

You learn the truth and more of the truth that way. But the rut of a predetermined mindset of doctrine is exactly how you don't learn truth and even less so as you progress in that mindset. Emphasis on mindSET.
Oh, of course you're "full" gospel. No one but your little sect is "full" gospel, all others only believe "part" of it. Yes, all others "filter" what they read. But not you guys, you're the repository of all truth, the last remnant, the only ones who believe the "whole" bible. :D

Believe me, I've dealt with their heresy in the past. And present.

You're so full of error your own praise is saddening. Your gospel is false. You know what Scripture says, not what it means in most areas.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
I do not believe in sinless perfection,for we are still tempted,and have a choice,so we can sin if we desire to sin.

But we sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot abstain from sin,for if we hate sin,and do not want sin,then by the Spirit we can abstain from sin,and we do not want to call the Spirit a liar,and the Spirit cannot fail,as long as we do not want sin.

So what if people that believe OSAS,and faith alone,are intentionally sinning,are they still right with God when they are not trying to beat sin,but doing it on purpose.

For when we sin we are doing it on purpose,for nobody forced us to sin.

Who forced us to sin,I would like to know.Was it anti-karma,was it mother nature,was it santa claus,or the easter bunny.

It was us that sinned and did it on purpose,for nobody is forcing us to sin.

To say that a person cannot abstain from sin is to say someone forced them to sin against their will,for we sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot abstain from sin.

So what do they do with that when they sin on purpose,and then act as if they cannot beat it,and if they are chosen,and cannot fall,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,should not the chosen understand that.

Every time we sin it is on purpose,for nobody forced us to sin,and if they do not try to beat sin,but do it on purpose,and then say,we cannot abstain from sin,God is not stupid,and you cannot pull the wool over His eyes.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

God is not mocked what ever you sow is what you will reap.God said to the saints do not be deceived about that.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

When a person sins,or holds unto sin,then the sacrifice of Jesus cannot wash it away,until they get rid of it,and do not want it,God knows the heart whether you are playing or not.

I suppose they would have to say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,for we see the hypocrisy in the world according to those that believe OSAS,and faith alone,so they would have to justify the sin that it does not affect their relationship with God,because of their hypocrisy.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
I have long suspected that the local so-called Unitarian Church, is an ultra left wing political group, and not really a Church in any sense of the word. Yes, I know they deny the Deity Christ, so they do fall into the rhealm of a psuedo Christian Cult. The route I take to my Church on Sunday mornings, takes me right past the UNITARIANS building. They have a sign out front that their pastor changes every week. He puts up a popular saying, and the Sermon Title every week. I have lived here for 18 months, in all that Time, NOT EVEN ONCE have I seen the word CHRIST on that sign, and NOT EVEN ONE Bible quote. The vast majority of it has been popular left wing political quotes. AND TO TOP IT OFF, today's Political Surmon Title was: THE AGE OF TRUMP.

MORE, Signs of the TIMES, "even so come Lord Jesus."
If it is the same religion that I have seen, Universal Unitarianisim, yeah they are new age hocus pocus, interesting thing... They recited Catholic prayers... Catholic means Universal...
 
P

PHart

Guest
The unforgivable sin is to equate the work of Jesus to the power of the devil and not the Holy Spirit......and one who will not acknowledge the work of Jesus as from God cannot be forgiven...
That is one way that a person can blaspheme the Spirit (the unforgivable sin)--call the Holy Spirit a lying worker of miracles for the devil.

What the Pharisees where doing is looking right into the face of God in Jesus, seeing for themselves the irrefutable work and ministry of the Holy Spirit confirming Him to be the Messiah, and yet they called Him and the Holy Spirit a lying worker of the devil.

All people who choose to not believe do that. When they 'see' the irrefutable truth of Jesus and the gospel through the testimony of the Spirit in their heart and they decide to reject it despite the fact they know it is true, John says that is calling the Holy Spirit a liar--in effect a lying spirit of darkness.

"6It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 9...the testimony of God is this, that He has testified concerning His Son. 10...the one who does not believe God has made Him (the Holy Spirit-vs.6) a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son." (1 John 5:6,9,10 NASB)

There is no forgiveness for refusing the truth when you can see for yourself by the Holy Spirit that it is the truth. That is the one single place the grace of God can not go. How much more severe the punishment for the person who not only knew the truth about the gospel, accepted it, but then rejected it and returned to the world in unbelief. Quite severe I'm sure, according to Hebrews 10:26-31. They have committed the unforgivable sin to the highest degree. They have nothing to look forward to but the wrath of God for his enemies, along with those who never believed at all.


After faith if we believe not he ABIDES faithful because he cannot deny himself......end of story....every man, woman and child he begins a work of faith in will be brought to fruition....there is NO losing salvation after initial faith and to say such is to flat deny and equate Jesus to being an inept liar that cannot finish what he started and promised to finish....
I'd be calling Jesus a liar if the scriptures did not teach what I am saying, but as it is I simply sharing the plain words of scripture right out of the Bible and leaving all the 'it doesn't really mean what it says' nonsense of OSAS out of it.


God remains faithful to those who are not faithful, but who are still clinging to the blood of Christ for hope. But God will deny the person who is not just unfaithful but who leaves the faith altogether in an outright denial of Christ and the gospel. He has no obligation to protect the person who has chosen to leave the protection of Christ in a denial of Christ. But he will stick close in faithfulness to the struggling, failing saint who continues to relate to Him in faith in even the worst of '7x70' relationships with him (you know '7x70' means , right?).
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
I thought the unforgivable sin was to reject Jesus.
It is.....and that is exactly what they were doing when they equated the work of Christ to the power of the devil.....they were rejecting him and his work on behalf of humanity....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
The unforgivable sin is to equate the work of Jesus to the power of the devil and not the Holy Spirit......and one who will not acknowledge the work of Jesus as from God cannot be forgiven
 
P

PHart

Guest
Oh, of course you're "full" gospel. No one but your little sect is "full" gospel, all others only believe "part" of it. Yes, all others "filter" what they read. But not you guys, you're the repository of all truth, the last remnant, the only ones who believe the "whole" bible. :D
But of course, you do belong to the repository of all truth, while everyone else, like me, doesn't?

Think before you post, lol.
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,262
113
Oh, of course you're "full" gospel. No one but your little sect is "full" gospel, all others only believe "part" of it. Yes, all others "filter" what they read. But not you guys, you're the repository of all truth, the last remnant, the only ones who believe the "whole" bible. :D

Believe me, I've dealt with their heresy in the past. And present.

You're so full of error your own praise is saddening. Your gospel is false. You know what Scripture says, not what it means in most areas.
Hi Preacher, "Full Gospel"?, as if there were a, "half gospel", someone should tell Phart to go back to Church and take a 12 week fundamentals of "The Faith" class, and forever abandon his fake gospel.

Originally Posted by PHart

Oh, just so you know, "I'm Full Gospel", Non-denominational.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Today's Sermon at our conservative evangelical Community Church, was a special Blessing. For the past few Months Dr. Gil has been teaching verse by verse through Revelation. His teaching style is very thorough, so he also shows how Prophecies of the Old Testament fit together with the Book of Revelation. So I picked up some special jewels of understanding today.

I have LONG personally believed that Old Testament Saints, and New Testament Saints are SAVED THE EXACT SAME WAY. Especially because of this Verse:

Malachi 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] "For I, the LORD, do not change;
therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.


I know that many believe, and especially some here, that the Old Testament Saints were saved by keeping the law and the animal Sacrifices when they failed. I do NOT believe that; in fact I believe:

OT SAINTS were saved by believing GOD would provide a MESSIAH.
NT SAINTS were saved by believing GOD did provide a MESSIAH.

People want to argrue, claiming the Believers of the OT, did not have the Holy Spirit, therefore they were not born again, and never have been IN THE MESSIAH.

So here are a couple of jewels of wisdom that gleaned from today's sermon:


Ezekiel 2:2-5 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] As He spoke to me the Spirit entered me and set me on my feet; and I heard Him speaking to me.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Then He said to me, "Son of man, I am sending you to the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] "I am sending you to them who are stubborn and obstinate children, and you shall say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD.'
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "As for them, whether they listen or not—for they are a rebellious house—they will know that a prophet has been among them.


Because of false belief that JEWS of the OT were saved by works of the LAW, most Christians today do not think OT Believers get Resurrected the Same Time as NT Believers.


Daniel 12:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] "Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

THAT PORTION OF SCRIPTURE, PARALLELS THIS PORTION OF SCRIPTURE:

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (CSBBible)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] For we say this to you by a word from the Lord: We who are still alive at the Lord's coming will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel's voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Then we who are still alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Therefore encourage one another with these words.


NOW, I ask, SINCE OUR LORD GOD DOES NOT CHANGE, AND A FEW OT JEWS SERIOUSLY BELIEVED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH TO REDEEM THEM FROM THEIR SINS; HOW CAN YOU SAY THOSE FEW ARE NOT IMMERSED INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF MESSIAH?


Matthew 22:14 (ASV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For many are called, but few chosen.

Matthew 7:13-14 (HCSB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] “Enter through the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the road is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who go through it.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it.


Ezra 9:15 (ESV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] O LORD, the God of Israel, you are just, for we are left a remnant that has escaped, as it is today. Behold, we are before you in our guilt, for none can stand before you because of this.”



Isaiah 10:20-21 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] On that day the remnant of Israel and the survivors of the house of Jacob will no longer depend on the one who struck them, but they will faithfully depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the Mighty God.

I am CONVINCED by the Holy Spirit, those who had Genuinely BELIEVIED GOD WOULD SEND A MESSIAH, Will be Resurrected the same day as genuine Christians, and are co-equally the BRIDE OF CHRIST. Those who chose to believe they have to go through the TRIBULATION, you WILL GET TO DO EXACTLY THAT. As for the Rest of us, WE HAVE A WEDDING TO GO TO:

Revelation 19:7-8 (NCV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Let us rejoice and be happy and give God glory, because the wedding of the Lamb has come, and the Lamb’s bride has made herself ready.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Fine linen, bright and clean, was given to her to wear.“ (The fine linen means the good things done by God’s holy people.)






 
Last edited:
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
But of course, you do belong to the repository of all truth, while everyone else, like me, doesn't?

Think before you post, lol.
Yes, you dont have the truth, you are correct.

I always do think when I post which is why your false gospel is readily dismantled.

For the record there are several here not Reformed yet I count them as brothers though we disagree in some areas. This does not include the false gospel message you peddle; 2 Corinthians 2:17, 4:2.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If you are using these verses to prove Paul still committed sin after his conversion, you are in error.
The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.
BTW, verse 24 was answered in Romans 6:6.
This is not about "sins" committed. Its about the nature of sin that we all have a bent to because we are born natural man. Of the earth, not heaven...until our new birth.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
Hopefully PHart you'll see this and God will bring you to repentance.

Everything you preach, teach, propagate incessantly points to you, what you must do, how righteous you are, what you have to do to get into heaven, and now how your sect is the only true church, you, the only ones who have the full gospel, how all others are deceived &c. A

PHart, you are always pointing to you, rarely to Christ unless it is token. Hopefully you will get tired of you, give up you and learn to believe the true Gospel which makes men glory only in Christ, not in efforts nor in self.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 3:36, “He who believes in the Son possesses everlasting life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of Yah remains on him.”[/FONT]
 
Sep 14, 2017
900
23
0
Hopefully PHart you'll see this and God will bring you to repentance.

Everything you preach, teach, propagate incessantly points to you, what you must do, how righteous you are, what you have to do to get into heaven, and now how your sect is the only true church, you, the only ones who have the full gospel, how all others are deceived &c. A

PHart, you are always pointing to you, rarely to Christ unless it is token. Hopefully you will get tired of you, give up you and learn to believe the true Gospel which makes men glory only in Christ, not in efforts nor in self.
Spoken like a true hater. No one has to expose you, you do such a great job on your own.