The Rapture
- Thread starter 2nicee
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Yes sir, Im going to give a verse at the beginning and at the end, in between my own words;
John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."
Ther is no other way than Yahshua. There is no this way for Jews and that way for non-Jews. One narrow path, one Covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah, and this is Israyl, true Israyl, this does not exclude Jews by blood, or Gentiles by blood, but rather those who have faith in AND obey Yahshua/Jesus are Israyl, heirs to the promise made to Abraham. It does not matter if we look different, if one speaks this language or that, if one is a layman or a teacher, if one is high or low, rich or poor, etc. What matters is that we have faith in and do the will of; Yah.
John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
John/Yahanan 14:6, "Yahshua proclaimed to him: I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man comes to the Father, except through Me."
Ther is no other way than Yahshua. There is no this way for Jews and that way for non-Jews. One narrow path, one Covenant ratified in the blood of Messiah, and this is Israyl, true Israyl, this does not exclude Jews by blood, or Gentiles by blood, but rather those who have faith in AND obey Yahshua/Jesus are Israyl, heirs to the promise made to Abraham. It does not matter if we look different, if one speaks this language or that, if one is a layman or a teacher, if one is high or low, rich or poor, etc. What matters is that we have faith in and do the will of; Yah.
John/Yahanan 14:23, "Yahshua answered, and said to him: If a man loves Me, he will keep My teachings and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him."
By this belief, both you and TMS and others, are just circumventing the other scriptures that contradict Matt.24:29-31 and 1 Thes.13-18 as being the same event where the church is gathered. Both of these that you have listed are two separate events. By this you demonstrate the inability to compare and cross-reference scripture.
You ignore that fact that scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, or any wrath and that because Jesus suffered it on our behalf.
You have no understanding that those who are in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. And that because you have the church going through the wrath of God anyway, which means that you truly don't believe that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that believers deserve. If you did, you wouldn't be claiming that the church will be gathered when Jesus returns to the earth. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which you have him doing by your belief and claim.
You still haven't given an answer as to who those are riding on white horses and following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14. If you knew, you wouldn't continue in your claim.
The Gathering of the church - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53
Takes place prior to God's wrath
Church departs from the earth
Comes like a thief in the night
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age - Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21
Takes place after God's wrath
Church returns to the earth
Every eye shall see him
You ignore that fact that scripture states that the church is not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath, or any wrath and that because Jesus suffered it on our behalf.
You have no understanding that those who are in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. And that because you have the church going through the wrath of God anyway, which means that you truly don't believe that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that believers deserve. If you did, you wouldn't be claiming that the church will be gathered when Jesus returns to the earth. God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, which you have him doing by your belief and claim.
You still haven't given an answer as to who those are riding on white horses and following Christ out of heaven in Rev.19:14. If you knew, you wouldn't continue in your claim.
The Gathering of the church - John 14:1-3, 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:51-53
Takes place prior to God's wrath
Church departs from the earth
Comes like a thief in the night
The Lord's return to the earth to end the age - Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21
Takes place after God's wrath
Church returns to the earth
Every eye shall see him
Last edited:
No there is no "third coming". When the Bible speaks about the "coming" of Christ, it is speaking about Christ coming to this earth. He came the first time in humiliation, and He will come the second time "with power and great glory"
However when Christ comes to receive His saints and take them to Heaven, He comes "in the air", there is a "catching up" of the saints, and they return with Him to Heaven. All of this occurs in what we might call today "a nanosecond". So this cannot be regarded as a "coming" to earth.
Once again, that is not "a coming for Jews". After the battle of Armageddon, Jesus gathers all the Jews from around the world to Israel, where they see Him, mourn and repent, and are saved (Zech 12:9-14;13:1,9).
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart...
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness...
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
However when Christ comes to receive His saints and take them to Heaven, He comes "in the air", there is a "catching up" of the saints, and they return with Him to Heaven. All of this occurs in what we might call today "a nanosecond". So this cannot be regarded as a "coming" to earth.
Once again, that is not "a coming for Jews". After the battle of Armageddon, Jesus gathers all the Jews from around the world to Israel, where they see Him, mourn and repent, and are saved (Zech 12:9-14;13:1,9).
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart...
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness...
And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
I can see grounds for both chiliasm and amill. I am just not for sure how to approach the 1,000 years as literal or symbolic. I am one who reads the bible literally until its obvious its not literal, but symbolic. But to take 1,000 years literal in one verse in Revelation 20, when the whole book is chocked full of allegorical language, is why I am struggling betwixt a literal or symbolic 1,000 years.
But one thing's for certain, IMO, dispensationialism is untenable. To have two separate bodies of Christ is ridiculous.
But one thing's for certain, IMO, dispensationialism is untenable. To have two separate bodies of Christ is ridiculous.
=Nehemiah6;
...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years...and he shall rule them with a rod of iron... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They are reigning with him now...they are described a "beheaded souls"...are you suggesting they are on earth ??? the texts says they reigned with Christ a thousand years...where does it say they were on earth???
Jesus rules and reigns from heaven. Why do you think He cannot reign from heaven...Isa 52, quoted in romans 10;
7 [FONT="]How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation;
[/FONT][FONT="]that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth![/FONT]
can you show it is on earth???
...and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years...but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years...and he shall rule them with a rod of iron... And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
They are reigning with him now...they are described a "beheaded souls"...are you suggesting they are on earth ??? the texts says they reigned with Christ a thousand years...where does it say they were on earth???
Jesus rules and reigns from heaven. Why do you think He cannot reign from heaven...Isa 52, quoted in romans 10;
7 [FONT="]How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation;
[/FONT][FONT="]that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth![/FONT]
can you show it is on earth???
The Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are discussed in Revelation 6-18. After that we see the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, and then the second coming of Christ with His saints in Revelation 19. At the end of this chapter we see the battle of Armageddon.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
That is correct. The Rapture is IMMINENT (which means that it can even occur today). Also, the Lord specifically said in this regard "Let not your heart be troubled" (John 14:1). Had He planned to send His saints through the Tribulation (which is for the unbelieving and the ungodly) He would have said the opposite.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
That is correct. The Rapture is IMMINENT (which means that it can even occur today). Also, the Lord specifically said in this regard "Let not your heart be troubled" (John 14:1). Had He planned to send His saints through the Tribulation (which is for the unbelieving and the ungodly) He would have said the opposite.
1. So you believe rev 19:17 -21 is Armageddon, and you believe revelation is in order, mean chapter 1 happen before chapter 2 etc.
2. You believe saint not go to tribulation God say Let not your heart be trouble.
seem to me, God always say that though He know Stephen go to persecution. To me that statement doesn't mean saint not go to tribulation. Like what happen to the history of Christianity, God promise His inclusion in suffering but not promise free from persecution, in the contrary God promise that people will hate us, persecute us, but He say fear not.
Matt 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
2. You believe saint not go to tribulation God say Let not your heart be trouble.
seem to me, God always say that though He know Stephen go to persecution. To me that statement doesn't mean saint not go to tribulation. Like what happen to the history of Christianity, God promise His inclusion in suffering but not promise free from persecution, in the contrary God promise that people will hate us, persecute us, but He say fear not.
Matt 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.