The Rapture

[Nehemiah6]

SO there are only 7 trumpets?

But how is Yahshua's return not the 7th then?

Because after all the trumpet judgments have taken place (the Great Tribulation) there will first be a shaking of the heavens and the earth, and ONLY AFTER THAT will Christ return.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30).

seventh messenger

sounded his trumpet, and... He shall reign forever and ever!

Although this is stated in Rev 11:15 it is an announcement for what is to come AFTER all the judgments which proceed from Rev 8 to Rev 19 (which means after the battle of Armageddon). So this does not mean that this trumpet is not announcing judgments.

So when we taken the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation and harmonize them, they do not refer to the Resurrection/Rapture at all, and the second coming of Christ is only AFTER He comes first for His saints.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The rapture is on the last day;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The "last day" is NOT a 24-hour day but a period of time which is in excess of 1,000 years. How do we know this? Because the resurrection of the just (the first resurrection) is not at the same time as the resurrection of the unjust (the second resurrection) and the Millennium separates them. Also, before the resurrection of the Tribulation saints (Rev 20) the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church takes place. That is the only way that Christ can come WITH His saints at His second coming.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28,29).

On the surface this appears to say that in one hour, both these resurrections will occur. But Revelation 20 makes it perfectly clear that that is not what it means.

 

[Hizikyah]

Because after all the trumpet judgments have taken place (the Great Tribulation) there will first be a shaking of the heavens and the earth, and ONLY AFTER THAT will Christ return.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Mt 24:29,30).


Although this is stated in Rev 11:15 it is an announcement for what is to come AFTER all the judgments which proceed from Rev 8 to Rev 19 (which means after the battle of Armageddon). So this does not mean that this trumpet is not announcing judgments.

So when we taken the Olivet Discourse and the book of Revelation and harmonize them, they do not refer to the Resurrection/Rapture at all, and the second coming of Christ is only AFTER He comes first for His saints.

He returns on the 7th trumpet, the heavens are shaken on the 4th;

Mat 24:29, “And immediately after the distresse of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."


Revelation 8:12, "And the fourth messenger sounded, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. And a third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night."

 

[MarcR]

One problem frequently encountered in this discussion is that people sometimes argue while agreeing with one another because they use the same words differently.

Some people understand tribulation to signify persecution of the Church by the World. This persecution, we are told, will dramatically increase in the last days. From this perspective I believe most of us will agree that the rapture must be mid trib.

Some people understand the Great Tribulation to be the outpouring of God's wrath. From that perspective, many more of us will agree that the rapture is pre-trib than would if holding the other perspective.

I believe that the Church will be raptured before the outpouring of God's wrath.

Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

I believe that this great multitude is the raptured Church; therefore, I believe that the Rapture must occur before the seventh seal is opened. I am not dogmatic about how much before.

 

[Ahwatukee]

He returns on the 7th trumpet, the heavens are shaken on the 4th

Hello again Hizikyah,

Prior to the 7th trumpet the seven seals followed by trumpets 1 thru 6. These are the wrath of God, with the bowls completed God's wrath. If you have the Lord returning to gather His church at the 7th trumpet, then it would mean that the church would have to go through God's wrath. Therefore it nullifies that possibility because according to scripture, the Lord is not going to put His church through wrath.

[FONT=&quot]Mat 24:29, “And immediately after the distresse of those days [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."

As I previously posted, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The scripture above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church. 1 thes.4:13-18 and Matt.24:29-31 are not the same events. Until you understand this, your interpretation of end-time events will be in error.

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[FONT=&quot]Revelation 8:12, "And the fourth messenger sounded, and a third of [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] And a third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night."

What does the 4th trumpet have to do with Matt.24:29? These are not the same event. First of all, in the Matt.24 account it says that the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Where at the 4th trumpet the sun, moon and stars are darkened by only a third. They are not the same events.[/FONT]

 

[fredoheaven]

The "last trump" (the trump of God) is for the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church. You will find it in 1 Cor 15:52 and 1 Thess 4:16. The trumpet summons for the saints HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN COMMON with the seventh trumpet of Revelation. This is not called "the last trump" and even the word "trumpet" is not used for the seventh angel (so that in itself is good evidence), and also it is strictly to pronounce judgment on the unbelieving and the ungodly. Two different trumpets for two very different reasons.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound [the trumpet], the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets...And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth...And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (Rev 10:7; 11:18; 15:1 )

1 Cor.15:52 deals with the event of the rapture of the saints, when the dead in Christ shall rise first and those alive in Christ will be caught together in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. The comforting trump for the saved is different from the judgment trumpet sounds for the unsaved as in the book of Revelation. Okay, when the roll is called up yonder, I’ll be there! Amen.

God bless

 

[Ahwatukee]

The rapture is on the last day;
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

In saying "last day" Jesus is not speaking about a specific day, but the last days i.e. during the end time. In Revelation 20:4-6 where it states "this is the first resurrection" if you try to have the church resurrected there, it would put us through the time of God's wrath, which would be in contradiction to the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath and Jesus rescuing us from that coming wrath.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hello again Hizikyah,

Prior to the 7th trumpet the seven seals followed by trumpets 1 thru 6. These are the wrath of God, with the bowls completed God's wrath. If you have the Lord returning to gather His church at the 7th trumpet, then it would mean that the church would have to go through God's wrath. Therefore it nullifies that possibility because according to scripture, the Lord is not going to put His church through wrath.
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As I previously posted, it is important to understand that there is a difference between the Lord's appearing to gather His church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The scripture above is referring to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and not the gathering of the church. 1 thes.4:13-18 and Matt.24:29-31 are not the same events. Until you understand this, your interpretation of end-time events will be in error.



What does the 4th trumpet have to do with Matt.24:29? These are not the same event. First of all, in the Matt.24 account it says that the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Where at the 4th trumpet the sun, moon and stars are darkened by only a third. They are not the same events.[/FONT][/COLOR]

So this is a timeline I made myself, I didnt get it anywhere except from reading the word. and I believe it is the same occurance, it is talked about many many times in Scripture.

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."

View attachment 175371

SO there are only 7 trumpets?

But how is Yahshua's return not the 7th then?

seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and... He shall reign forever and ever!

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."


Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Yah sent out into all the earth.”


Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”





1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that יהושע died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."


1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”


Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

 

[Ahwatukee]

So this is a timeline I made myself, I didnt get it anywhere except from reading the word. and I believe it is the same occurance, it is talked about many many times in Scripture.

Yes, I understand my friend. But you have to take into consideration the rest of scripture as well so that your conclusion does not contradict other scriptures.

That said, the majority of the book of Revelation starting from chapter 6 thru 18 is given over to God's wrath and related information. And since scripture states that believers are not appointed to go through God's wrath, then you have to be mindful of this when interpreting when the church is gathered in relation to the time of God's wrath. That said, when you claim the 7th trumpet as the being the same as the "last trumpet" it puts the church through the majority of God's wrath, which contradicts the other scriptures.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yes, I understand my friend. But you have to take into consideration the rest of scripture as well so that your conclusion does not contradict other scriptures.

That said, the majority of the book of Revelation starting from chapter 6 thru 18 is given over to God's wrath and related information. And since scripture states that believers are not appointed to go through God's wrath, then you have to be mindful of this when interpreting when the church is gathered in relation to the time of God's wrath. That said, when you claim the 7th trumpet as the being the same as the "last trumpet" it puts the church through the majority of God's wrath, which contradicts the other scriptures. [/COLOR]

I see Scripture says he will return immediately but after; no pre-tribulation rapture, but if you look at that timeline, you will see the 7th trup sounds then the 7 vials/last plagues are brought forth, so the worst of the worst those who enter will not be here for, but still what is coming is the worst the earth has ever seen even before the vials;

Isaiah 24:1-6, "See, יהוה is making the earth empty and making it waste, and shall overturn its surface, and shall scatter abroad its inhabitants. 2 And it shall be – as with the people so with the priest, as with the servant so with his master, as with the female servant so with her mistress, as with the buyer so with the seller, as with the lender so with the borrower, as with the creditor so with the debtor; 3 the earth is completely emptied and utterly plundered, for יהוה has spoken this word. 4 The earth shall mourn and wither, the world shall languish and wither, the haughty people of the earth shall languish. 5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.”



Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

​

Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

 

[Hizikyah]

Isaiah 24:1-6, "...5 For the earth has been defiled under its inhabitants, because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant. 6 Therefore a curse shall consume the earth, and those who dwell in it be punished. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth shall be burned, and few men shall be left.”

I want to add, most say the Law is done away or changed, yet Yah says the curse devurs the earth "because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant" so who am I to believe man and his rebellion or Yah? Ill believe Yah, He is trustworthy. Off topis a bit but to me it shows how far off main stream religion is.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."

Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

This is why I said that it is important to understand that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth as being two separate events. The scriptures that you provided above are in reference to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, which takes place after God's wrath has bee poured out. In opposition to this, the gathering of the church takes place prior to God's wrath.

The gathering of the church (rapture) = When the Lord descends to the atmosphere and the dead in Christ resurrect, with the living in Christ being changed and caught up with them where the entire church is taken back to the Father's house, which is represented by John 14:1-3,1 Thes.4:13-17 & 1 Cor.15:51-53

The Second Coming = When the Lord returns to the earth and the church with Him, after God's wrath has been poured out to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, which is represented by Dan.2:31-45, Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and 19:11-21.

Regarding Isaiah 24:1-6, you have to be open for other scriptures. That said, in I Cor.15:52 Paul called the changing and gathering of those living at the time of the resurrection as a "Mystery" which means that it was something that was not known by the OT prophets. Paul here is introducing this new teaching to the Corinthians for the first time and he wrote in detail to the Thessalonian church regarding the same event. Therefore you have to take into consideration all of this information.

So, the day of the Lord is coming which is the time of God's wrath and which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Since the church is not appointed to suffer God's wrath, we will not enter into that period of God's wrath and we therefore must be gathered prior to it. (1 Thes.1:10, 5:9 and Rev.3:10).

Those in Christ have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God. The church has already received Christ, who met the righteous requirements of the law on our behalf and who took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves and paid the penalty for every believers sins by the shedding of His blood. Looking at it logically, there would then be no reason for the church to go God's wrath because of the reasons previously stated and the fact that believers have already repented. That said, the wrath of God is coming upon the ungodly, those who will have rejected Christ as Lord and savior, those who continue to live according to the sinful nature.

As the most convincing proof, scripture reveals the church returning with Christ as he returns to the earth to end the age (second coming). Regarding this, in Rev.19:6-8 we see the bride/church in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she receives her fine linen, white and clean. Then in Rev.19:14 we see the bride/church following the Lord out of heaven to the earth riding on white horses and wearing that same fine linen, white and clean.

I want to add, most say the Law is done away or changed, yet Yah says the curse devurs the earth "because they have transgressed the Torah, changed the law, broken the everlasting covenant" so who am I to believe man and his rebellion or Yah? Ill believe Yah, He is trustworthy. Off topis a bit but to me it shows how far off main stream religion is.

Regarding the above, we who have believed have been redeemed through Christ who fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law completely satisfying it on every believers behalf, as well as fulfilling God's wrath on our behalf.

 

[Muzungu256]

In saying "last day" Jesus is not speaking about a specific day, but the last days i.e. during the end time. In Revelation 20:4-6 where it states "this is the first resurrection" if you try to have the church resurrected there, it would put us through the time of God's wrath, which would be in contradiction to the church not being appointed to suffer God's wrath and Jesus rescuing us from that coming wrath.

stop spiritualizing the last day........ what happened to literal interpretation????? u literally spiritualize more than most and always tell others how dumb it is to spiritualize..... churches are church ages, swords are AKs, horses are tanks and tings..... u see even the apostles said amos 9:11 was already fulfilled spiritually with the church in acts 15. if u were reading that u would say noo its not fulfilled, it says it will be rebuilt like in the old days and in the old days it was a real physical building stop spiritualizing u would say u see...... but thats what the apostles did. can we just stop using that word spiritualize when everyone does it?????

 

[Nehemiah6]

stop spiritualizing the last day........ what happened to literal interpretation?????

When "the last day" is interpreted as a period of time, that is not spiritualizing but recognizing that it is a metaphor for the time which will include the resurrection of the saints as well as the resurrection of the unsaved. It cannot possibly be one hour or even one 24-hour day. See Revelation 20.

 

[Endoscopy]

Post tribulation/pre-wrath at the 7th trump is what the bible teaches.....don't buy the imminent return fallacy!

In God's time frame it is imminent.

 

[Allenbee]

I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?

If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".





So that's a previous post of mine disproving a pretrib rapture.


And here below is ANOTHER example of how pretrib believers like Ahwaktukee twists things... to TRY to trash stuff they don't like.

He says; Allenbee, your reasoning above makes no sense. There is no signs prior to the Lord gathering His church, as it will take place like a thief in the night.

Think about that comparison for a moment. The gathering of the church will be evident to the world after it takes place and not before.

Now I said; I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ? ( So...AFTER THEY DISAPPEAR TO HEAVEN. NOT BEFORE as he crookedly says.)

Also... "like a thief in the night DOES NOT APPLY TO A RAPTURE, as he twists scripture to suit pretrib junk.
We ALL know it is our Lord who comes as a thief in the night... NOT a selfish man made rapture.

If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

TRUE FACT !

 

[Ellsworth1943]

I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ?

If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".





So that's a previous post of mine disproving a pretrib rapture.


And here below is ANOTHER example of how pretrib believers like Ahwaktukee twists things... to TRY to trash stuff they don't like.

He says; Allenbee, your reasoning above makes no sense. There is no signs prior to the Lord gathering His church, as it will take place like a thief in the night.

Think about that comparison for a moment. The gathering of the church will be evident to the world after it takes place and not before.

Now I said; I mean, if all these ones disappear to heaven, will that not be a sure sign that the Lord is active and here ? ( So...AFTER THEY DISAPPEAR TO HEAVEN. NOT BEFORE as he crookedly says.)
Also... "like a thief in the night DOES NOT APPLY TO A RAPTURE, as he twists scripture to suit pretrib junk.
We ALL know it is our Lord who comes as a thief in the night... NOT a selfish man made rapture.
If there is a pretrib rapture then no way can our Lord come as a "thief in the night".... "Immediately after the tribulation of those days".

TRUE FACT !

I Thess. 5 clearly teaches the coming of Jesus as a thief in the night only applies to those in darkness, i.e. the lost.

II Thess. 2 clearly teaches that our gathering together will not come until after the man of sin is revealed.

The only way one can state that the rapture can come at any moment or that no sign must first be seen is to ignore or place a private interpretation on these Scriptures.

 

[Locutus]

Paul states that the man of sin/perdition was alive and being restrained in his day:

2 Thess 2:6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed.

How can someone be restrained "now" in Paul's day when Paul wrote the above if he wasn't alive then?

If he was alive back then as Paul implies then is the man of sin nearly 2000 years old?

There is something wrong with these "theologies" that place the man of sin anywhere but the 1st century AD.

 

[Allenbee]

How can you say this Ellsworth;"I Thess. 5 clearly teaches the coming of Jesus as a thief in the night only applies to those in darkness, i.e. the lost". ???

Here is 1 Thess;5 and note the lost, AND the brothers in the Lord.

"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5You are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Using your same logic in how you interpret this verse explain to me the following verse?

Mat_5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

What then? Can a person look upon a MAN to lust after him does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a child to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon the same sex to lust after them does not commit adultery?
Can a person look upon a beast to lust after it does not commit adultery?
OR does woman above mean men, children, beasts, and same sex?

Your assumption, based on YOUR OWN STUDIES is flawed.

First of all, you have created a terrible comparison in order to discredit what I posted.

How is it terrible, you say because it speaks of 144,000 that are not defiled by women, to mean it is women ONLY. i have posted a relevant verse that uses the word WOMAN to mean not only women but others as well. i only brought this up because you feel that the 144,000 people who are not defiled by women, can only mean women. i have showed a relevant verse that SAYS woman, which does NOT mean ONLY a WOMAN. This you could not see the comparison, why is that? Because you are unwilling to change your belief to fit with what Scriptures teach.

And second, it is not my assumption at all, but is exactly what the scripture says.

It is most certainly your assumption that the phrase can only be applied to women ONLY. Because it says women. i have clearly shown you a verse that says "Woman" and yet does not mean ONLY women. It IS your assumption that the verse which says the 144,000 were not defiled by women, can ONLY mean women.

By the scripture stating that this group of 144,000 did not defile themselves with women, it demonstrates that they are all males, ergo, male child.

And that is your Assumption. i know that the 144,000 were not defiled with women, means the 144,000 are Virgins. It is your assumption and deduction that the 144,000 are males. And even that you don't believe you believe the 144,000 people chosen by God and sealed in their foreheads is but a single male child. ALL ASSUMPTIONS based on the mind of Ahwatukee. What i teach is what God told me. The 144,000 are children (boys and girls) that make it through the Tribulation Period, these children are protected by personal Angels of God during the Tribulation Period, they survive and repopulate the Earth during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth. Isiah speaks of these children in Scriptures.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth (So we are now discussing New Heaven and the New Earth): and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

Isa 65:19 And I (JESUS) will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Pay attention here. Age is restored back to the way it was prior to the flood. A Godly person who dies at 100 years old will be considered a child. (This is referring to the 1,000 years of Garden of Eden on Earth = New Heaven / New Earth) But did you notice that sinners are still present? Because it says the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. So at this time Godly people and sinners are present. This verse confirms what God told me as well. The 144,000 sealed children will be present with the sinners during the 7 year Tribulation period. That is why they are sealed for protection from those sinners that will be around during that time. And that time will be 3 1/2 years after Christ gets here in the Holy City which the world will call a UFO, the Mothership, and all nations will gather to attack it.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. (Who are these that Isaiah is talking about. The Saints have already risen to be with Jesus in the sky (The Holy City, the place Jesus went to Heaven to prepare for us) But who are going to be planting vineyards, who are going to be building houses and living in them? These are the 144,000 that were protected by Angels during the Tribulation Period.)

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. (Who are the elect, they are the 144,000 children sealed by God during the Tribulation Period, These will build houses and live as long as trees do, and trees can live thousands of years. Why do you think it is written He shortens the days for the elects sake? If Jesus Raptures the Saints, why would there be a need to shorten the days of the Tribulation if the Saints are taken up already? Because the 144,000 are the elect of Christ, the chosen of Christ, sealed by Christ to make it through the Tribulation Period. If then Tribulation Period was not shortened even the very elect (144,000) would not have made it through that Period.)

Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.

Did you catch that? Isaiah is talking about the time of the New Heaven and the New Earth. And these who he is talking about do labour, they are the seeds of the Blessed of the Lord Jesus, and their OFFSPRING with them. WHAT? These have sex. Isaiah is talking about a particular people who can live as long as a tree and these people are blessed of the Lord and they have sexual relationships and have offspring, and even their offspring are Blessed of the Lord Jesus. These are the 144,000 children that God seals during the Tribulation Period to repopulate the New Heaven and New Earth during the reign of Jesus Christ on Earth for a thousand years. But sinners and the 144,000 will be present together during the 7 year Tribulation Period, that is the reason they need sealed by God, getting protection from Angels.

Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

These pray for anything at all, it will be granted to them.

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

This is during the time of the New Heaven and the New Earth, conditions will be like that of prior to the flood. The 144,000 chosen of God will live on this New Earth during that time. The Saints (You and i, will be living in the Holy City with Jesus Christ. We reign with Him, that is to say we will reign over the 144,000 and their offspring)

I can't help it if you can't put two and two together. As far as your list above goes, these 144,000 males did not sin in any of those ways.

i never said they sinned at all. The 144,000 do not know what sin is. They do not sin, nor will they be capable of sinning. During the Tribulation Period they are not only protected by Angels from sinners, but protected from satan as well. These 144,000 will not know what a lie is, nor will stealing ever even cross their minds, whatsoever they ask for they receive of Jesus. The Blessed of Christ, the 144,000 chosen and sealed by God will not know what sin is, nor will they ever commit it during the 1,000 years when satan is bound and can't tempt anyone at all. Truly the New Heaven and New Earth will be like the Garden of Eden, except it will be world wide, wheresoever the rivers that flow out of New Jerusalem touches. There will be no sinning during the 1,000 year reign of Christ on Earth, because during satan is bound during that time. Jesus and us Saints reign over the entire Earth over the 144,000 and their offspring for a thousand years. What happens after a thousand years is another topic we won't discuss here now.

You teach, the 144,000 are NOT 144,000 people, but is a male child

[/COLOR]You have misquoted me above. I have always said that the 144,000 are 144,000 individuals that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The "Male Child" is a collect name for the entire group. Remember all of the demons that possessed the man of Gadara? When Jesus asked him his name he said his name was "Legion" which was a collective name for all of those demons. So, why is it so difficult for you to understand that the Male child is a collective name for the 144,000?

i am in error. Please accept my apology on this matter. i have indeed misunderstood what you were saying. Please forgive me, and i will try to do better in the future.
Now that i understand what you mean by it is a collective name for the 144,000 and not a specific male child, i better understand what you are trying to say. Don't agree with it, but i understand what you mean concerning what you believe.

You need to pay better attention to what you read Dave.

YOU are right. i will try to do better.

I am not basing the male child as being all males by the word "THEY." I am basing it on the fact that the verse states that "they did not defile themselves with women," which demonstrates that they are all males.

So to recap, the 144,000 are made up of 144,000 individuals that come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, twelve thousand from each tribe.

The moniker of "Male Child" is a collective name representing the entire 144,000, who are identified as being those who did not defile themselves with women, making them all males.

i understand that is what you believe, and even understand why you believe it. But the Truth is what God has told me concerning what is to come to pass. What He told me is the TRUTH. Should i believe God or what men teach. What you teach comes from a man. YOU are a man correct? Interpretations belong to God NOT to men. YOU interpret the Word of God, Did God give you the authority to do so, or is this something that YOU took thought to do on your own? If it is written, Ask and you shall recieve, believing you shall receive it. Why would a person not merely ask God to tell them what a specific verse means and KNOW that He will tell them the answer. When i was very young prior to 12. i prayed all the time for understanding of His Word, i never felt worthy enough to try to interpret the Word of God by myself, as if i or any human is capable of doing that. So i prayed to HIM continually for understanding of His Word, and one day He spoke to me, calling my name "David" From then on, we had many conversations, and He told me many things that are going to come to pass. One of which the 144,000 are children that make it through the Tribulation Period.

What is the ONLY way to be Saved, to Get into Heaven? Is there not but ONE way to get into Heaven, and that is through Jesus Christ? Tell me Where is it written that children go into Heaven without any knowledge of Jesus Christ at all?
Where is it written that children without any knowledge of Jesus Christ go to Heaven?
Aren't ONLY those who are written in the Book of Life Raptured up?
If all Children then go to Heaven, then are all children's name written in the Book of Life? IF that is True, then EVERYONE goes to Heaven because as a child their name is written in the Book of Life. Or are they written in the Book of Life only to be blotted out of the Book of Life only to be put back in the Book of Life when they get Saved?
There is nowhere in Scriptures that teach there is another way to get to Heaven. There is ONLY ONE way to get into Heaven and that is through the knowledge of Christ.
So then what has been revealed to me, is that 144,000 children during the time of the 7 year Tribulation will be sealed by God and will make it through the Tribulation Period being protected by Angels of God. Those who are taken up are those ONLY whose names are written in the Book of Life, and since children are not written in the Book of Life at Birth, they too are not taken up with Jesus, but at that time, they will be protected, they, the 144,000 children will be sealed and Blessed of the Lord, they will not have been defiled with women, they will not know what sin is, they will not know what a lie is, nor what stealing even means. The 144,000 are children that repopulate the Earth during the 1,000 years of the New Heaven and the New Earth. The New Heaven and the New Earth takes 7 years to complete, it is during that 7 years of the Earth being reformed, burnt, tossed to and fro, that we humans call the Tribulation Period. It is that Period which creates the New Heaven (atmosphere) and New Earth. This Earth as we know it will pass away, and it will take 7 years to do so. This is what God has told me will happen in the future, and it is the TRUTH. And there is not ONE verse that is contrary to anything that He told me will happen. But Scriptures supports all that He told me will happen. And i know they will happen as i have said above, because it is what God told me. If i am lying, let me die a horrible death and lick the soles of satans feet for all eternity. But if i am telling you the TRUTH, which i testify comes from God, it would behoove you to search the Scriptures and see if these things i say is True or false. But what will this generation do, they will NOT go to the Scriptures like the Bereans did when they heard something they did not believe, NO, not this generation, this generation will search NOTHING, they will not believe what i say is from God, not because it is contrary to any Scriptures, but is contrary to what they think is the TRUTH, contrary to their own belief of what they think is TRUE.
my hand are clean though, i have told you what God told me, and one day when you finally see these things come to pass, you will know that you should have listened to the guy who said God told him stuff. Anyone can say God told them something, satan can speak to people as GOD. How can you tell who is talking? By what they teach, if they teach anything that is CONTRARY to the Word of God they are false, not to be believed. But in the last days the spirit of prophesy will be given to people, and God will reveal to them what must shortly come to pass, i have told you the TRUTH, what you do with it now is on YOU, my hands are clean. i have pleased Him by obeying Him, and He told me to teach this generation what He has told me. That i do.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave