Not By Works

[followjesus]

HG stands for Hyper Grace and followers a line of theology which puts everything on Christ,
and nothing on the believer except resting in Christ.

They emphasise not resolving sin, confessing or repenting, just knowing you are saved, and
then continuing in your life, with the fruits of the Spirit, without any defined integrity or even
reading scripture that might convict you. If you do feel convicted, that is satan trying to take
away you faith and knowledge you are in Christ, even if you are in sinful behaviour.

This particular debate or grouping have been going on for the last 2 years.
A large amount of the discussions have been centred around differences in these areas.

true Peter, and to me what really sticks out about hg, is How it will stand firm when looking directly at massive amounts of scripture that shatter its integrity. ultimately it forces someone to believe Jesus was wrong about His Kingdom, Because He didnt teach the gog He taught Gods Word rather than the latest best seller where you can " Learn the 7 secrets to guilt free Living" for only 39.95" ......

 

[PeterJens]

All that the Christ did for all His ppl has been imputed unto them, and they now possess it as if they were the ones who did it. Its called justification.

And you have been justified, set free from sin and have a right standing before God, as God now sees you in Christ, and you no longer have to be a self-starter. You are now on the highway to heaven and will never breakdown.

This diagram is the substitutional theological view of faith.
Did Christ die in our place? Do we have Christs righteousness and our sin was born
by Him? Was it this that gives us forgiveness?

Christ died because of the sin of the pharisees and law givers. They decided He was guilty
and needed to die. Jesus was innocent and law abiding, but threatened their authority and
power in a national way. They knew a movement that changed the role of the temple, would
restructure the nation. If Jesus is the Messiah, and the priests and high priests are no longer
required, what role is there for them? They knew their evil, and knew Jesus would expose it
all, so rather than repent they wanted a way to destroy Him and stay as they were.

God took all this sin, accepted their punishment, death, and forgave them, rising from the dead.
So He became the source of ultimate forgiveness through this one act. If we identify with the
hypocracy of the pharisee and teachers of the law, understanding we are as guilty as them,
then we also receive the forgiveness Jesus gave in response.

But this whole process is confession of our sin, repentance, desiring to walk in love and doing
the right things, knowing through the cross we have forgiveness and cleansing for our sins,
and by having faith in Christ to deliver this, that brings us freedom.
Realising this historically, the brutal reality of the players, how they argued, what they
wanted transforms us, because we see God and His terms for acceptance in salvation.

We are deemed righteous because we are washed clean of our sins. The term is purified,
cleansed, made Holy.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20

The problem with the theory as shown in the diagrams, is it is a theory or language of legal
terminology. What we are in Christ is new creations, because we have met Jesus, and know
His love and forgiveness through the cross.

As approximations go the language works, except it leads to extremes, and religious language
and behaviour which is founded on insecurity and knowing ideas, rather than walking in love
and relationship.

So the response to questions of faith, become long lists of theological positions, which are
good in their place, but one to one, as brothers in the Lord, we just need to say,
Praise the Lord.

Thankyou my friend for bringing out these issues and miss-understandings, for by talking
through this we grow in Him. Amen.

 

[PeterJens]

I get the distinct feeling from many, they regard others as enemies.
The real problem is they also do not know who are friends even on a christian website.

A number of contributors hold very heretical positions over sin and righteousness, to the
degree they are prepared to condemn every human action as sinful.

Traditionally we have followed as the church is general a view of transformation from
coming to faith through steps, to finally find the likeness of Christ.

Different groups have taken various views how this takes place, with the sacramentalists,
to the more life style keeps like the Amish.

A new group has emerged with a gnostic slant, born with a new eternal spirit that is perfect
and holy in a believers flesh, that will always be evil and sinning. This creates a dualist view
of life, where sinful behaviour is the doomed flesh, mortal side, and the spirit, which is the
eternal perfect side. This group therefore maintain language that is from both camps which
they use interchangeably when talking so it becomes quite confusing to know where they
stand. There biggest failure is in the total rejection of the sermon on the mount spoken to
believers and putting in place any moral law in their lives, though they will not admit this,
they will never actually agree to any moral code or standard.

My progression has been to wonder at why Paul called us Holy. And it is this that has
changed my thinking, and position in what we are before the Lord.

So I hold the core evangelical beliefs, but I wonder if our emphasis on the cross is not
personal enough, and our devaluing our selves too great.

He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect.
1 Tim 3:4

All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.
2 Thess 1:5

urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.
1 Thess 2:12

so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,
Col 1:10

We are a light on a hill, bearing witness to the treasure God has put within us.

This is not about pride, but just speaking reality in a lost dark world were love
is rare and often miss-placed.

 

[PeterJens]

The most profound sentence in History

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
Luke 23:34

This is a specific forgiveness, exercised over the Killing of Jesus on the cross.
It is not a blanket forgiveness for the world, or Israel, just for the act of killing Him.

But it is because of this very forgiveness we gain access to the Holy of Hollies, through
His death we are washed clean, by identifying with the innocense of not knowing our
sin kills us and the world, we are set free into His Kingdom.

The passover lamb, the blood that was shed, the atoning sacrifice.
A death was accepted as the consequence of sin, the death of God, the worst insult possible
yet God forgave. If we can see both our insult is the same, so then we can accept the
forgiveness offered and know the walk to life He leads us into.

 

[gb9]

This diagram is the substitutional theological view of faith.
Did Christ die in our place? Do we have Christs righteousness and our sin was born
by Him? Was it this that gives us forgiveness?

Christ died because of the sin of the pharisees and law givers. They decided He was guilty
and needed to die. Jesus was innocent and law abiding, but threatened their authority and
power in a national way. They knew a movement that changed the role of the temple, would
restructure the nation. If Jesus is the Messiah, and the priests and high priests are no longer
required, what role is there for them? They knew their evil, and knew Jesus would expose it
all, so rather than repent they wanted a way to destroy Him and stay as they were.

God took all this sin, accepted their punishment, death, and forgave them, rising from the dead.
So He became the source of ultimate forgiveness through this one act. If we identify with the
hypocracy of the pharisee and teachers of the law, understanding we are as guilty as them,
then we also receive the forgiveness Jesus gave in response.

But this whole process is confession of our sin, repentance, desiring to walk in love and doing
the right things, knowing through the cross we have forgiveness and cleansing for our sins,
and by having faith in Christ to deliver this, that brings us freedom.
Realising this historically, the brutal reality of the players, how they argued, what they
wanted transforms us, because we see God and His terms for acceptance in salvation.

We are deemed righteous because we are washed clean of our sins. The term is purified,
cleansed, made Holy.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20

The problem with the theory as shown in the diagrams, is it is a theory or language of legal
terminology. What we are in Christ is new creations, because we have met Jesus, and know
His love and forgiveness through the cross.

As approximations go the language works, except it leads to extremes, and religious language
and behaviour which is founded on insecurity and knowing ideas, rather than walking in love
and relationship.

So the response to questions of faith, become long lists of theological positions, which are
good in their place, but one to one, as brothers in the Lord, we just need to say,
Praise the Lord.

Thankyou my friend for bringing out these issues and miss-understandings, for by talking
through this we grow in Him. Amen.

paragraph 2 first sentence, could not be more wrong.

Hebrews 10 v.12- but our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, GOOD FOR ALL TIME. nothing about certain individuals.

another peterjens fail. but, you are just giving out your opinions. so, until you began to use God's written Word and stop telling us your opinions ( they are wrong )., then back on ignore you go.

 

[preacher4truth]

I get the distinct feeling from many, they regard others as enemies.
The real problem is they also do not know who are friends even on a christian website.

A number of contributors hold very heretical positions over sin and righteousness, to the
degree they are prepared to condemn every human action as sinful.

Romans 2:3

Luke 18:10-12

 

[PeterJens]

paragraph 2 first sentence, could not be more wrong.

Hebrews 10 v.12- but our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, GOOD FOR ALL TIME. nothing about certain individuals.

another peterjens fail. but, you are just giving out your opinions. so, until you began to use God's written Word and stop telling us your opinions ( they are wrong )., then back on ignore you go.

Now there is a wrong and right interpretation here, but it is more subtle than you are
suggesting.

A single sacrifice given at one point in history, how can it account for all sin, that it
needs to purify?

There are two aspects of a sacrifice. A sacrifice is recognition of damage done for sin.
In the extreme, every insult is a rebellious act, so one deed is as rebellious as any other.
Rebellion has only one ultimate result, destruction. So the sacrifice recognises the whole
is worthy of destruction through each act. God is eternal, so the sacrifice of His life, once,
is an eternal reality, as if an infinite number of sacrifices have been made, throughout all
eternity.

This sacrifice is only applicable to those who claim it. It is to bring people into right relationship
with God. If the people involved have no interest in this, it is like an open door through which
none walk, which is the same as if the door was closed.

So the words describe the path is there for all, if claimed.

Jesus put it like this,
For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.
Matt 13:15

And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Acts 2:21

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
Rom 10:13

So my friend, again you are wrong and do not understand the spiritual realities
being talked about.

In your theology, sin has been removed, though sinners still sin, damage and death
still brought into their lives, but God has removed judgement for sin but for no purpose
except to appease your conscience when you sin, saying the sin is forgiven.

This is just another form of rebellion against God, throwing away the very salvation you
claim to hold so dear. It is like saying I love a woman as I rape her.

Either you show your love by how you speak and behave towards the object of your love
or you are lying.

Now these are very hard statements, but this is the spiritual stakes people are playing
with and the judgement that follows such heresy and talking against Gods word.

And you will notice the dismissive nature of these followers
"until you began to use God's written Word"

Only the blind, deaf and dumb speak like this with closed hearts, blind to love and what
it asks to do because of the cross, to live a life worthy of Christ.

Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Matt 10:38

God is no idle King, His judgement is sure, and strong, His love, Holy and pure, His cross
complete and cleansing, so repent and walk in His ways.

 

[PHart]

Wonder if the workers for and those who keep themselves saved have done enough today.....nope....nor will they ever...

Thankfully, we are saved and continue to be saved through our believing.

..Jesus can save you and keeps you saved.......you should trust him...!

That's right.....keep believing and you will have nothing to worry about.

 

[PeterJens]

Romans 2:3

Luke 18:10-12

So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?
Rom 2:3

Luke 18:12-14 Tax collector and Pharisee

All these are good sentiments, we need to repent of our sins and know we depend alone
on our relationship with the living God and His grace shown everyday in our lives.

Observing that people are feel others are enemies is an observation not a judgement.
You appear to be like a briar, desiring to create damage, but never getting too close.

Jesus said this about certain teachers

Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matt 7:16

Jesus calls us to peace, love, encouragement, following His ways.
Is this not your aim to be not Christ like, or is this desire to correct and put right others
stronger than this calling on your heart, my friend?

I do not want to pick points with you, but you seem to want to do this all the time.
Lord, grant peace and joy in the heart of p4t, that He might know you blessing and
acceptance in your ways, with nothing to prove or "get right", but rather just share.
Amen

 

[PeterJens]

[video=youtube;HsUugC_hLLc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsUugC_hLLc&list=RDEMORiNTZh5MD9bcOhfcgo6i Q&index=13[/video]

 

[PHart]

Christ died because of the sin of the pharisees and law givers. They decided He was guilty
and needed to die. Jesus was innocent and law abiding, but threatened their authority and
power in a national way. They knew a movement that changed the role of the temple, would
restructure the nation. If Jesus is the Messiah, and the priests and high priests are no longer
required, what role is there for them? They knew their evil, and knew Jesus would expose it
all, so rather than repent they wanted a way to destroy Him and stay as they were.

paragraph 2 first sentence, could not be more wrong.

Hebrews 10 v.12- but our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, GOOD FOR ALL TIME. nothing about certain individuals.

I don't think you're getting the implication of what he's saying. The Pharisees said they were all about the law and obedience to God, yet they hated and killed the very one who taught this obedience to God.

That's what happens in on-line forums. We're supposed to be Christians, lovers of God, lovers of truth, but when someone comes in talking about actually practicing obedience and holiness because that's what God made us to do and be they get crucified as being legalists, self-righteous, 'workers for', etc. How ironic.

A new group has emerged with a gnostic slant, born with a new eternal spirit that is perfect
and holy in a believers flesh, that will always be evil and sinning. This creates a dualist view
of life, where sinful behaviour is the doomed flesh, mortal side, and the spirit, which is the
eternal perfect side. This group therefore maintain language that is from both camps which
they use interchangeably when talking so it becomes quite confusing to know where they
stand. There biggest failure is in the total rejection of the sermon on the mount spoken to
believers and putting in place any moral law in their lives, though they will not admit this,
they will never actually agree to any moral code or standard.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thankfully, we are saved and continue to be saved through our believing.

No, thankfully what you say isn't true and any thinking true convert can see this.

Salvation isn't based upon our performance, and, as per usual, you have the proverbial cart before the horse.

Thankfully, we are saved and are continuing to be saved by grace which comes from God, not because we continue to do something or perform. You're making the continuation of doing something as what saves the person, thus, it is dependent upon the person, not upon Christ. Yes, I know, you can insert your free will gospel that one can choose to stop believing, of which you are frankly obsessed.

One thing you do not see is the fact that Romans 8:29-30 is already completed in every true convert, glorification included, and the passage and exegesis of the text proves that true converts can never be lost. From foreknowing, to glorification, all will be experienced in every true convert.

The evidence of true conversion and salvation is perseverance of the faith. This isn't the cause of our salvation, nor does it assist our salvation, nor will salvation ever end for a true convert - these will always believe the Gospel. Those who have believed in vain were never saved in the first place. Their open disbelief down the road proves them to be impostors, note Matthew 13:18-23 for example of which you will claim all saved then some lost it.

Your lack of believing the Gospel properly causes you to conflate descriptive and prescriptive texts.

Look at it like this: I can describe a sheep, it has four legs, a woolly coat, grazes on grass &c. I've just described a sheep; it is what it is.

Scripture also describes sheep, it tells us what they look like, how they live, of their obedience &c. Scripture then uses texts which describes who are sheep, and who are not.

The latter portions of Paul's epistle's are generally descriptive in this fashion. 1 John also does this, describing "we" (sheep) and "they" (goats). You spend an exorbitant amount of time in attempt to prove goats are sheep so you can claim "they lost their salvation" of which teaching you are also obsessed yet it is unbiblical doctrine arrived at, again, by conflating texts.

Then there are things prescribed as to "*becoming" a sheep, simply put: "Repent, and believe the Gospel." That is how one is saved. (*not that I believe a goat becomes a sheep, but that He gathers His lost sheep into His fold)

But you rush in attempting to make sheep out of those who are already sheep by telling them they must keep believing, must do other things to remain a sheep. Scripture doesn't do this, you do it by misunderstanding texts of Scripture and make them into something they have to keep on doing or they will be lost. You fail here by taking descriptive texts and trying to prescribe them as a thing that they must do to remain a sheep. You also, as was previously shown, attempt to make goats into sheep. A goat cannot make it into heaven if it "keeps believing" because a goat has never truly believed.

But I digress, in your false gospel you see God sifting the wheat from the wheat instead of His wheat from the chaff and as separating sheep from sheep instead of sheep from the goats. Those are just more of your errors which need to be exposed.

I write this for those who have truly believed the Gospel in order to expose the errors, some subtle, of those who preach a false gospel of maintaining salvation via effort.

 

[PeterJens]

No, thankfully what you say isn't true and any thinking true convert can see this.
........
I write this for those who have truly believed the Gospel in order to expose the errors, some subtle, of those who preach a false gospel of maintaining salvation via effort.

p4t - You are a sucker for propoganda. Why have you fallen for dc/eg/g7 position while rejecting
their core position?

But probably because the conflict is what you relish. You appear to be a calvanist, of the OSAS
camp. If you are happy there, amen. As long as you do not disown my walk in the Lord and
in His word I am happy.

As soon as you start disowning believers, you show your true colours. The reason why people
are called wolves in sheeps clothing, because their intentions are destruction not encouragement.

A lot have testified starting from an Armenian position, who over time because more calvanistic.
None of their experiences in Christ were false, it was their interpretation that changed over time.

We are called to do good works to His glory, not to earn our salvation but as an act of worship
to the King. Surely if you are following Christ you should be encouraging us to do likewise as
Paul says

"For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
Eph 2:10

May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope, encourage your hearts and strengthen you in every good deed and word.
2 Thess 2:16-17

Unfortunately some people define themselves by their enemies who they must create
to continue their "ministry", which is a sad state to be in, though it creates the us and
them that gives their group an identity.

 

[gb9]

No, thankfully what you say isn't true and any thinking true convert can see this.

Salvation isn't based upon our performance, and, as per usual, you have the proverbial cart before the horse.

Thankfully, we are saved and are continuing to be saved by grace which comes from God, not because we continue to do something or perform. You're making the continuation of doing something as what saves the person, thus, it is dependent upon the person, not upon Christ. Yes, I know, you can insert your free will gospel that one can choose to stop believing, of which you are frankly obsessed.

One thing you do not see is the fact that Romans 8:29-30 is already completed in every true convert, glorification included, and the passage and exegesis of the text proves that true converts can never be lost. From foreknowing, to glorification, all will be experienced in every true convert.

The evidence of true conversion and salvation is perseverance of the faith. This isn't the cause of our salvation, nor does it assist our salvation, nor will salvation ever end for a true convert - these will always believe the Gospel. Those who have believed in vain were never saved in the first place. Their open disbelief down the road proves them to be impostors, note Matthew 13:18-23 for example of which you will claim all saved then some lost it.

Your lack of believing the Gospel properly causes you to conflate descriptive and prescriptive texts.

Look at it like this: I can describe a sheep, it has four legs, a woolly coat, grazes on grass &c. I've just described a sheep; it is what it is.

Scripture also describes sheep, it tells us what they look like, how they live, of their obedience &c. Scripture then uses texts which describes who are sheep, and who are not.

The latter portions of Paul's epistle's are generally descriptive in this fashion. 1 John also does this, describing "we" (sheep) and "they" (goats). You spend an exorbitant amount of time in attempt to prove goats are sheep so you can claim "they lost their salvation" of which teaching you are also obsessed yet it is unbiblical doctrine arrived at, again, by conflating texts.

Then there are things prescribed as to "*becoming" a sheep, simply put: "Repent, and believe the Gospel." That is how one is saved. (*not that I believe a goat becomes a sheep, but that He gathers His lost sheep into His fold)

But you rush in attempting to make sheep out of those who are already sheep by telling them they must keep believing, must do other things to remain a sheep. Scripture doesn't do this, you do it by misunderstanding texts of Scripture and make them into something they have to keep on doing or they will be lost. You fail here by taking descriptive texts and trying to prescribe them as a thing that they must do to remain a sheep. You also, as was previously shown, attempt to make goats into sheep. A goat cannot make it into heaven if it "keeps believing" because a goat has never truly believed.

But I digress, in your false gospel you see God sifting the wheat from the wheat instead of His wheat from the chaff and as separating sheep from sheep instead of sheep from the goats. Those are just more of your errors which need to be exposed.

I write this for those who have truly believed the Gospel in order to expose the errors, some subtle, of those who preach a false gospel of maintaining salvation via effort.

it is sad to me that they talk about grace, but then talk about what you must DO to be saved out of the same mouth.

what did the thief on the cross DO? Scripture does not even record him asking to be forgiven. he just called Jesus" Lord" and asked to be remembered. so, did he do enough good works and have enough faith? or did he believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

some folks need to get off their religious high horses and go out do some real good in the world, and stop bragging about how righteous they are, because we know that they are not.

 

[PeterJens]

it is sad to me that they talk about grace, but then talk about what you must DO to be saved out of the same mouth.

I have to conclude
1. You must project something on to others to make a point
2. You then accuse them of being hypocrites

Firstly, we speak of Gods grace because Jesus coming to earth is His grace.
We gain salvation through Jesus alone, but unless we are changed, transformed
in communion with Jesus, it is all meaningless.

The point of salvation is to bring us into communion, fellowship oneness with God.
In this fellowship and oneness we love and do the very works of the Father.

If believers claim they have the promise of this eternal communion with God yet
deny and do not live it in this world, why would they love it in the next or even
God honour promises which they do not want to see fulfilled.

It is like buying a ticket for a boat, and then refusing to get on, and claiming
you have got on and everything is ok, when clearly you are still exactly where
you were before.

These illustrations are simple, and demonstrate an important principle of the Kingdom,
walking in it, yet we have believers saying this is wrong.

Now it is fine to disagree about anything, but passivity, emptiness, sin and denial are
not anything but apostacy and heresy. You cannot live is a swamp and claim it is
a clear stream, because everyone else can see the reality.

 

[notmyown]

 

[VCO]

Hi VCO...Yes I agree with all said here...I read also that when we die we are immediately in the presence of our Lord, in total Joy ...I was thinking about this yesterday when Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake, even untill death, I am not to far in the word as yet, so still learning new things everyday, but from what I read here in the link, we are immediately in the presence of the Lord,this is so comforting, sorry if I have gone off topic from the original post, but I just had to share my finding ...It just takes that fear knowing that when we face death, then die, Jesus is ALWAYS with us, we are never ever alone...\o/...xox...

Know there is nothing wrong with you going off Subject to share those kind of blessings. We are enjoying watching you grow and mature spiritually; it really encourages me and others. Here is something else to look forword to, when our human spirits are instantly transported to heaven when we die, and a couple other verses to encourage you:


1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (HCSB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For now we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully,as I am fully known.
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.


1 Corinthians 8:3 (GWT)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But if they love God, they are known by God.


1 John 3:2 (NIV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


NOTICE, It says "WHEN HE APPEARS", not "when HE returns". Clearly it is talking about the Rapture.

 

[mailmandan]

 

[TruthTalk]

This is correct theology

Our Justification; God does not need our good works.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians2:8,9

Our Sanctification; but your neighbor does.

"For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph2:10

No "Hyper Grace" here, no discrepancy here in God's plan of Salvation;

Our Justification, you are saved eternally, (God will never let you out of his hand), apart from works, yes Jesus paid it all.

Our Sanctification, we are set apart to do God's will. Now go cut your neighbor lawn.

To quote a true believer on this forum, "God does all the good that is within us"

Now it is time for all of you who missed Noah's Ark (our salvation) to go and set up your "workshop" the ship has already left port.

 

[PHart]

it is sad to me that they talk about grace, but then talk about what you must DO to be saved out of the same mouth.

You mean like when a preacher tells an unbeliever about the grace of God and what they must do to get it? How does grace make it so that we do not have to do the 'work' of believing?

what did the thief on the cross DO? Scripture does not even record him asking to be forgiven. he just called Jesus" Lord" and asked to be remembered. so, did he do enough good works and have enough faith? or did he believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

'Have enough faith' and 'believe on the Lord Jesus Christ' are exactly equivalent of each other. But you seem to be making a distinction between the two.


The thief on the cross was saved because he did something--he believed in Christ. But if he continues to do that believing he is now somehow trying to earn his own salvation? That doesn't even make sense. It's an absurd doctrine. The exact same believing, after being saved through that believing, suddenly becomes a work of the law that can't justify. That's weird. But I know that is what the church believes today.

some folks need to get off their religious high horses and go out do some real good in the world, and stop bragging about how righteous they are, because we know that they are not.

That's exactly what we're saying to the 'faith alone' (as James describes that) mentality in the church today. A confession of faith that has no works attached can not save. Only the faith that can be seen in what it does is the faith that can justify a person apart from their works.

"...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”" (James 2:18 NASB)

The church today has no problem with God's grace in forgiving our sin, but they fail miserably at understanding and defending the same grace of God that delivers us from that sin. That's what Jens was getting at about this unhealthy focus on only one aspect of the cross: A narrow incomplete aspect of the cross that can not save, because it does not embrace the whole grace of God that also delivers out of sin. The forgiveness of sin is signified in a person by their good works:


47“For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.” (Luke 7:47).

The gospel that only forgives sin, but which does not also result in a new life is a false gospel. And the preachers of that gospel are evidenced by their fruit. They get quite angry and hateful and not so gentle, lol, when you remind the church about the other half of God's grace that their gospel leaves out--the grace of deliverance from sin. Oh, yeah, they give it some lip service, but they are quick to condemn anyone who actually believes one can be delivered from the bondage of sin so as to be a 4th type of soil that Jesus talked about. But they are quick to insist that you can not condemn the 3rd type of soil.

Wow! What have we come to, church? We condemn those who live righteously and we defend those who do not. We are indeed in the last days of the church on earth. We are witnessing the great falling away.