Not By Works

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dcontroversal said:
....there is NO SUCH thing as presently believing = presently saved...
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You who talk about verb tense, note that 'saved' and 'hold fast' are in the PRESENT tense:


"1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are (presently) saved, if you (presently) hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain." (1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NASB)


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Did you not know this? Check it out for yourself, you who like to play the verb tense card (without examples) to defend your argument: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/1/t_conc_1077002

The person who is presently holding fast the word is presently saved. Do you say that is not true? What Paul said makes it so that you HAVE to be presently believing to be presently saved, or else what he said is not true.



dcontroversal said:
nor a former believer is not secure in Christ
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A former believer is NOT secure in Christ. The former believer who goes back to his unbelief does not have the sacrifice of Christ remaining on his behalf. He loses it. That's why he then becomes subject to the wrath of God that the blood of Jesus once rescued him from. Read it. These are the plain words of scripture:


"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THEFURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)
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Are you afraid of these words because you are afraid you will stop believing and go back to your sins because of trials and troubles and the desires for this life? Don't be afraid, just keep trusting/believing in Christ to keep you able to believe in his blood, and his sacrifice will REMAIN for you and you will be rescued from the coming wrath. You only have to be afraid if you stop believing and trusting in God's power because His power works "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5).




dcontroversal said:
ALL who have exercised genuine faith into JESUS are saved eternally to the uttermost and KEPT by the power of GOD...
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Yes....kept by the power of God through faith (1 Peter 1:5). Is it sinking in yet?



dcontroversal said:
YOUR use of Hebrews 10 and the other 3 sets of verse to say one can LOSE salvation is false, out of context and twisted to push a dogma that the bible does not teach.....
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Yes, we know this is your belief. But yet again, you post no substance to prove your point. Simply restating your argument without supporting scripture is not useful.
 
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preacher4truth said:
Well, "good luck" hope you hold out and make it in. It's all touch and go, the good news is only treacherous news at best. Try hard to help Jesus save you.
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I tell you wholeheartedly it is Jesus who holds me by His grace. In your mindset of rest do not forget surrender.
 
My words were not meant to hurt you, I was sad thinking you were doubting your salvation, I have felt that myself you know, but then again Jesus is always faithful

Well I do believe that the Holy Spirit is able to confirm our salvation when we have doubts

Glad to know you still believe that the believer is eternally secure

BenFTW said:
Sorry to disappoint you, those words hit me right in the stomach. I do believe in eternal security for the believer. The debate then is whether one's belief is sincere, and that is a task the Bible tells us to look into. To examine ourselves, to make sure of our calling and election. To be fruit inspectors of ourselves. I, no doubt, hold to our salvation is by grace through faith.
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dcontroversal said:
ABSOLUTELY................HIS view summed up---->the faith and power of Christ is not sufficient...JESUS needs man's help to keep one saved......
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Jesus needs our believing. But even that is done out of his gracious gift of faith--the ability to know something is true that we can not know is true for ourselves. So we can't even boast in our believing. Only he makes it possible to choose to believe.

The power of God comes "through faith" (1 Peter 1:5). Not through 'nothing at all', or 'unbelief' as so many in the church are now convinced is true today. I honestly believe we are witnessing the end times destruction of the church as the true assembled entity of God in the world. The true church of God's people will soon be composed of only individual believers defined solely by the truth they possess in the secret place of the heart, and no longer identifiable in a known visible entity or assembly. Then the end will come. I'm not a prophet, but I think this is where we're at, folks.
 
preacher4truth said:
Phart believes God only made salvation possible. To complete the transaction of possibility is up to phart.
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Everyone has to complete the transaction of possibility by believing the gospel. The simple fact that most humans beings in the history of mankind will not complete the transaction by believing proves that God made salvation possible, not inevitable.

You must presently have faith to presently have salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). That's the transaction--my believing (through God's gift of faith), for his salvation. Believing is what completes and applies the transaction. And last time I checked, believing wasn't on the side of one working to earn their salvation as some are insisting it is here in this thread. But if anyone would like to correct me on that with chapter and verse I will certainly change my stance on that.
 
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preacher4truth said:
In your false gospel do not forget you can lose your salvation.
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Are you not my brother in Christ? A fellow member of His body? Why do you attempt to cut me off instead of with meekness and respect correct me? As believers we must choose our words carefully, we shouldn't hinder another.
 
UnderGrace said:
Sometimes they do not come back but He goes and finds them

Because He is faithful
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No matter what the circumstances, a genuine prodigal, will repent and Come back to God. A counterfeit Christian Never will REPENT and come back to GOD, because he or she Never was there in the first place:


1 John 2:19 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. However, they went out so that it might be made clear that none of them belongs to us.
 
PHart said:
Everyone has to complete the transaction of possibility by believing the gospel. The simple fact that most humans beings in the history of mankind will not complete the transaction by believing proves that God made salvation possible, not inevitable.

You must presently have faith to presently have salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-2). That's the transaction--my believing (through God's gift of faith), for his salvation. Believing is what completes and applies the transaction. And last time I checked, believing wasn't on the side of one working to earn their salvation as some are insisting it is here in this thread. But if anyone would like to correct me on that with chapter and verse I will certainly change my stance on that.
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What part of Saving Faith is not of yourself, it is a GIFT OF GOD, do you not understand?

Old English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Modern English Translation:

Ephesians 2:8-9 (GWT)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] God saved you through faith as an act of kindness. You had nothing to do with it. Being saved is a gift from God.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] It's not the result of anything you've done, so no one can brag about it.


IT IS NOT WITH WHAT LIES BETWEEN YOUR EARS THAT YOU GENUINELY BELIEVE; IT IS WITH WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT HAS BIRTHED IN YOUR HEART.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Another chunk of wood to burn...
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I'll take being called nasty defending the Gospel against the likes of these workers, and defending our biblical beliefs against the likes of those who misrepresent us.

For the record, the nastiest bunch I've come across on here and elsewhere are the free willy anti-calvinists. To top it off with their no fear of God, they have no trouble whatsoever bearing false witness. Often. And won't bat an eye over it.
 
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preacher4truth said:
I'll take being called nasty defending the Gospel against the likes of these workers, and defending our biblical beliefs against the likes of those who misrepresent us.

For the record, the nastiest bunch I've come across on here and elsewhere are the free willy anti-calvinists. To top it off with their no fear of God, they have no trouble whatsoever bearing false witness. Often. And won't bat an eye over it.
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that is something I have thought about often- no fear of God. saying things like " I don't sin ", "I am a righteous person" , the Cross was not enough ".

I fear God and his righteous judgement, and would never make these claims. when Jesus sad " by your words you will be acquitted , and by your words you will be condemned " , I take that very seriously.
 
John 3:16, partially paraphrased:

"That all who BELIEVE in Me shall be saved".

Notice that verse does NOT say, those who KEEP BELIEVING in me shall be saved.


Just saying..
 
PHart said:
Does Jesus do your believing for you? Or did Jesus give you the faith--the ability--so you can do your believing/trusting?

Which is it, dcon? Are you a Calvinist and believe that you're just a pre-programmed puppet in the hands of God? Or are you a freewill creature able to make choices?
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Jesus did the work, He did the teaching, He did the convincing. But I chose to trust in him.

He proved faithfull, and he always is faithful, so once I have faith in him, I will never lose it, HE NEVER GIVES ME A REASON TOO, unlike human parents, human friends and human spouses who are not very trustworthy who gives us all kinds of reasons, LOSE FAITH IN HIM.

Your trying to humanize God, saying he is not triustworthy (by your very words claiming one can lose faith)

and as we see, your also just trying to fight calvanism. Until you make this a "word of God" issue, and not a "Fight Calanistic viewpoint" issue at all costs, I fear you will never understand.
 
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