Not By Works

[stonesoffire]

Works are either because we are the new creation man, or because we are yet natural man,

Must do, required, words similar suggest law. Loveme uses the words His way or the highway.

This is not our Father nor our Brother.

If we are yet flesh? We will try to please by doing. If we are Spirit, we will please because our nature is faith, and love. Both are given to us within our spirit, by Holy Spirit.

 

[preacher4truth]

Do you have a measuring stick for the amount of good works to prove being born again?

How do you measure amount? Either there are good works, or there are not. I don't think it's about how much, but about if. Nehemiah6 is off the tracks with his KJVO cultism and other errant theologies, but on this one he is correct.

There is a such thing as evidence of conversion, and, not. Whether one wants to label that a burden, or "works salvation" is up to them.

 

[stonesoffire]

Disciple Dave,

you asked me me if I was a sheep or goat. You don't know me all! Lol. I am neither. I am a Son.

 

[TruthTalk]

Some of these; "works based salvation theology folks", may have grown up in a works salvation religion; such as Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, and other legalistic Churches who, glory in themselves and not Jesus Christ our King and Savior.

They must have a difficult time going through the eye of a needle with all of their puffed up ego's -- where's the humility.

 

[Zi]

I thought sheep were son's?

Disciple Dave,

you asked me me if I was a sheep or goat. You don't know me all! Lol. I am neither. I am a Son.

 

[UnderGrace]

I am just going but what you have said.

I as a believer am not able to measure the quality or quantity of the "savedness" of another believer because I cannot see the heart and every moment of their lives and what they do on a daily basis.

I do know that I do good works as part of my testimony of being a believer not to prove my status but to provide evidence of my status so that my testimony is credible to the non-believer and believer

I have known many people confess salvation with barely a shirt on their back and their ability to do any works was minimal ......so I avoid making any determination on the spiritual status of any individual

I do understand what you are saying though I just do not agree completely

is that if there are no good works in a person's life, then it is evidence that they are not truly saved.

is that if there are no good works in a person's life, then it is evidence that they are not truly saved.

You are mistaking quantity for quality. That widow who gave her whole living to God did just one good work which was recognized by Christ as proof of her salvation. So just one act of obedience (as pointed out by James) such as Abraham offering Isaac to God proves genuine salvation. Or Rahab offering assistance to those spies proved that she was justified.

By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. (Heb 11:31)

 

[stonesoffire]

NO. At the first i tried to give up all sinning all at once, it was a disaster. Then i took one sin at a time and got rid of it out of my life until it was gone. That was more successful, thank Jesus. my invisible friend, when i was a kid, was Jesus, i even made a place for him to sit on the school bus. Then the Holy Ghost started convicting me that i was not Loving enough, that Jesus Loved everyone even His enemies and that i should do the same, so then i started to pray for help to love my enemies, i prayed for Jesus to help me forgive those who wronged me, little by little, little by little, i worked on being more pleasing to the God i serve. Then i got to the point where the Holy Ghost was prompting me to give up my life for HIM. So now, through the help of the Power and Strength of Jesus Christ who lives in me, i now do all things to please Him, i do not live my life for me, but live it for Him. i have learned to hate, even abhor sinning. Because God told me that all sinning is selfishness, all willful sinning is done because of selfish thoughts, to please self and not God. i do not obey satan in anything, i do not obey my flesh, nor any sinful desire, i ONLY obey Jesus Christ, i no longer please myself, but do ALL things to please Jesus my Lord, my Savior, my Master.

It is a race that one must finish. Even though i walk in the light, and do all things to please Him, and if i die right this second then i am Saved, but since i live, i must endure to end to Be Saved. What people fail to understand is you claim with your mouth today that you are Saved, but there is ONLY ONE DAY that determines if a person is Saved or not Saved, and that day is when the Books are opened and we are Judged. If our name is found written in the Book of Life and it has not been blotted out, it is ONLY on that DAY, that a person is Truly SAVED, He that endures to the end shall be Saved.
Being Saved is a narrow and difficult path that only a few will find, this generation has believed a lie that teaches once you are on that narrow and difficult path that it is impossible to ever fall away from it, they are wrong and are deceived and believe a lie that teaches once they are on that path they can't ever fall from it through their own choices.



Is it not written those who endure to the END shall be Saved. If then i freely choose to STOP, Then i have freely chose to deny Christ.

Jesus Christ in a person will cause that person to LOVE OTHERS, they will not be able to do otherwise, unless they deny Christ. Jesus Christ is LOVE. IF then Jesus Christ is Truly in you, then you will LOVE OTHERS, you won't be able to NOT help those in need, you will give to the poor, help those in need, you will give to charities, you will cloth the naked, visit the sick, you will do all these things, not to GET saved, not to remain Saved, you WILL DO all these thing because you ARE SAVED, He lives in you. Love lives in you, if you resist, you deny Christ. And we know what happens to those who deny Christ.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

well, woe is you. You've already convinced yourself that your life is going to be sorrowful, and you must hang on and endure all the hardships of life. Whatever happened to He provides all my needs according to His riches in glory?

No miracles? No catching up? God will never transport you out of trouble?

Have you read Acts? When did He change?

 

[stonesoffire]

I thought sheep were son's?

Did He bring many sheep to glory?

 

[UnderGrace]

It is absolutely true. It really is not gospel at all.

Why would Jesus do all that He did if we was not able to save us to the uttermost and keep His promises.

As well, by the life hid with Him we are able to be conformed to His image, not by our own self-effort but by Him working within us.

Some of these; "works based salvation theology folks", may have grown up in a works salvation religion; such as Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, and other legalistic Churches who, glory in themselves and not Jesus Christ our King and Savior.

They must have a difficult time going through the eye of a needle with all of their puffed up ego's -- where's the humility.

 

[Zi]

I've never read nor been taught on it..
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I made a statement that I thought not read or was taught they were the same

Did He bring many sheep to glory?

 

[stonesoffire]

It's amazing that you still do not understand the argument.
This is the argument:
JESUS saves and keeps us BY OUR FAITH (not our work)<--PHart

Works are simply the visible manifestation of the faith that saves and keeps saved. But so many in the church think the lack of change in them and their worldly lives in no way signifies either way if they are truly saved or not. They simply do not know the scriptures. Even when they read the scriptures they can't see what the church has taught them not to be able to see. The church, IMO, is already destroyed. There is nothing left now but for the end to come. This thinking is the false doctrine that destroys the church in the end times. It's happening right before our eyes. Those who have eyes can see it.

BUT

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What are you lacking then?

 

[TruthTalk]

[video=youtube;EZRB2927tnE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZRB2927tnE[/video]

Who can save you -- God Can

 

[stonesoffire]

I've never read nor been taught on it..
I'm not saying you're wrong.
I made a statement that I thought not read or was taught they were the same

Sheep and goats are nations. What god is their god. Israel -YHWH, Thailand - Buddha.

 

[stonesoffire]

Zi

It has a lot to do with our mindset. The mind of Christ- who thought it not robbery- to sheep- following the Shepherd.

 

[UnderGrace]

I agree there is evidence of salvation/conversion

I am just cautious around making any definitive judgements on quantity and quality on what someone's works should be as evidence of that conversion since not all people receive solid biblical teaching and some people are born again in very difficult circumstances

I also think the word proof is a much higher level than evidence and the two words are not interchangeable..but perhaps I am wrong...lol... it would not be the first time

How do you measure amount? Either there are good works, or there are not. I don't think it's about how much, but about if. Nehemiah6 is off the tracks with his KJVO cultism and other errant theologies, but on this one he is correct.

There is a such thing as evidence of conversion, and, not. Whether one wants to label that a burden, or "works salvation" is up to them.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Some of these; "works based salvation theology folks", may have grown up in a works salvation religion; such as Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah Witness, and other legalistic Churches who, glory in themselves and not Jesus Christ our King and Savior.

They must have a difficult time going through the eye of a needle with all of their puffed up ego's -- where's the humility.

there are no works based salvationists in this thread

what there are, are many posts attempting to make that case, but they only make the case for twisting...both scripture and most certainly the posts of those who state what the Bible itself states

faith leads to good works

now you seem to have that confused. you appear to be saying works lead to faith or perhaps salvation

those, are your own words and make a case for your ability to create a case against people who have said nothing even close to what you and others here have stated

not one person here, that I have seen, but feel free to provide an actual post if you know of one, has said that works save OR you must have works to stay saved

what I say being repeated often and then maligned by yourself and others, is that true faith will display works

twist that...go ahead...it is not really misunderstood. I think this thread has reached the pinnacle of misappropriation both of God's own truths and even the stand of grace no works at all people

nothing has been proven other than people will take a stand according to what they have been taught and will quite happily leave out what does not fit in with that particular theology

 

[TruthTalk]

It is absolutely true. It really is not gospel at all.

Why would Jesus do all that He did if we was not able to save us to the uttermost and keep His promises.

As well, by the life hid with Him we are able to be conformed to His image, not by our own self-effort but by Him working within us.

Hi UnderGrace, when I was first born a gain I was offered a 12 week new believers class so that I could understand the basics of my new faith in Jesus, which I was first in line to sign up, I was 28yrs old. At the end of the twelve weeks we were asked to fill out a simple testimony questionnaire. Part 1 was what were you like before God saved you and Part 2 was what are you like now after God has saved you.

Most people in the class room who wish to give their testimony responded with; I am more forgiving, more loving, I like to read my bible go to Church and learn about Jesus. Nobody responded; "yes now we must keep Jesus' commandments and do everything He commanded us to to do." And my bible say's, "Never lose your first love,"

The opposite effect of our, "Joy in the Lord", happens when legalistic Christian's come along and start preaching their false Grace plus works doctrine, (legalism), and the new or old Christian's say's okay, and then the believer loses all of their once held Joy in the Lord." If you get caught up in a legalistic Church, run don't walk to the nearest door.

God bless.....

 

[Desertsrose]

BUT

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What are you lacking then?

Hi Stones, I'm studying 2 Peter right now so this is fresh bread right now.

If you keep reading you'll see that we lack nothing, but what we do have can be inactive so Peter tells those in Philippi to supply fruit to their faith.

Verses 5-11 - Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

All of these spiritual fruits we already have, but Peter is telling us to grow up in them. In his first letter, Peter spoke of the new birth and born to a living hope. Now he tells them to grow up in the faith and also warns them of false teachers in chapter 2. He warns them ..... "For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins."

I believe that those who are truly saved will continue in the faith and those who don't aren't really saved. But those who think they have salvation, but really don't, for them they are losing something they think they've taken hold of. Salvation. On God's part they've never been saved, but on their part, they think they're saved always and forever because they said a few words, but never lived by faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

 

[dcontroversal]

How do you measure amount? Either there are good works, or there are not. I don't think it's about how much, but about if. Nehemiah6 is off the tracks with his KJVO cultism and other errant theologies, but on this one he is correct.

There is a such thing as evidence of conversion, and, not. Whether one wants to label that a burden, or "works salvation" is up to them.

I have yet to see anyone who pushes a works based, self preserved I have works to prove salvation accurately and or fairly describe works of wood, hay and stubble found in believers who are saved with NOTHING to show after their works are burnt to a crisp.....it is OBVIOUS that works of gold, silver and precious stones are indicative of faithful service after salvation.......

I have also failed to see the same people accurately and fairly assess or describe the works of one who teaches, but DOES NOT DO and yet STILL IN THE KINGDOM, but called least which is indicative of NOT serving or doing the works that they teach about.....

The simplest truth is the obvious...SALVATION is a ONE off event with eternal consequence by faith......the above are indicative of what happens AFTER faith and last time I checked....one who has been born from above by FAITH has already done the works of the FATHER before they have lifted ONE finger to do ANY WORKS after salvation.........

 

[dcontroversal]

It is absolutely true. It really is not gospel at all.

Why would Jesus do all that He did if we was not able to save us to the uttermost and keep His promises.

As well, by the life hid with Him we are able to be conformed to His image, not by our own self-effort but by Him working within us.

Amen..no one will ever change my mind....the promises of God are SURE having this SEAL.....end of story...

A. Saved to the uttermost
b. Kept by his power
c. Sealed unto the day of redemption
d. Begins and finishes our faith
d. Completes the good work of faith he began
e. In his hand
f. In the Father's hand
g. Will NEVER leave us or FORSAKE us
h. NOTHING can separate us from the love of GOD
I. HAS paid my ENTIRE sin debt on calvary
j. HAS REDEEMED me from among men
k. Disciplines me as a SON
l. MEDIATES non stop for me
m. HAS JUSTIFIED me eternally
n. HAS sanctified me positionally and eternally
o. HAS imputed HIS righteousness unto me by faith VOID of works or adherence to the law
p. UPHOLDS me by HIS POWER
q. HE LEAVES the 99 to find me if I stray
r. You must reject eternal and everlasting as applied unto life
s. You must reject whatsoever God does is everlasting<--saves us
t. You must reject the past, present and future application of salvation and saved
u. You must reject the Greek verb tense

and on and on and on.....YOU have to deny hundreds of biblical truths, principles, words, verbiage, verb tense, the promises of God etc. to teach you can lose salvation and or do something to earn it, keep it or maintain it...