Not By Works

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
Truth...Under...yes I heard a while ago and it is what it is.....not going to even surmise why, although I did enjoy many things he said........just gonna keep posting away....
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,401
113
You know...many conflate the O.T. and N.T. when it comes to salvation....under the O.T. a strict adherence to the law was required in order to meet God's requirements for blessings and or to keep from being punished for breaking the law(s) and this same attitude has been blended and or carried over by many who push a working for dogma that must earn or keep one's salvation.....

The N.T. supercedes the O.T. in scope when it comes to salvation before God....The O.T. had one purpose, that being to show man that man could not live up to God's standard and in essence and by design takes sinful men and points them to the only cure and door to pleasing God and meeting God's requirements.....

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

One concept that gets overlooked is the fourth word in the bolded above, that being TRUTH

Imagine that for one moment....what truth is being spoken of here....and the "BUT" contradicts the 1st statement concerning the law....think about that for a moment....

The truth

MEN will never be able to meet God's requirements or standards through a system of law that proves the guilt of men.....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

By faith and the grace afforded men through said faith in Christ, we can meet God's standard of righteousness and be accepted into the fold.....

Jesus<----I myself am, the true and living way, NO man can come to the FATHER except by ME, I MYSELF AM the DOOR of the SHEEP

LET that sink in.....
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
Truth...Under...yes I heard a while ago and it is what it is.....not going to even surmise why, although I did enjoy many things he said........just gonna keep posting away....
In Christ Jesus we have the victory, for He has cleansed and purified our souls.
It is the change in character and nature of believers that testifies to the treasure
within.

A lot of time is wasted not believing Christs words are enough.

I wish I could understand the pain many have felt serving the church before they were
ready. I met a friend of my daughters who is just going into youth ministry.

What a rejoicing young man. May his work continue, as a glowing light of love and truth.
We need each other, and most of all realise the blessing we can be.

So rejoice in Him for He is our Lord and God, amen.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
You know...many conflate the O.T. and N.T. when it comes to salvation....under the O.T. a strict adherence to the law was required in order to meet God's requirements for blessings and or to keep from being punished for breaking the law(s) and this same attitude has been blended and or carried over by many who push a working for dogma that must earn or keep one's salvation.....

The N.T. supercedes the O.T. in scope when it comes to salvation before God....The O.T. had one purpose, that being to show man that man could not live up to God's standard and in essence and by design takes sinful men and points them to the only cure and door to pleasing God and meeting God's requirements.....

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

One concept that gets overlooked is the fourth word in the bolded above, that being TRUTH

Imagine that for one moment....what truth is being spoken of here....and the "BUT" contradicts the 1st statement concerning the law....think about that for a moment....

The truth

MEN will never be able to meet God's requirements or standards through a system of law that proves the guilt of men.....

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

By faith and the grace afforded men through said faith in Christ, we can meet God's standard of righteousness and be accepted into the fold.....

Jesus<----I myself am, the true and living way, NO man can come to the FATHER except by ME, I MYSELF AM the DOOR of the SHEEP

LET that sink in.....
Amen, He is the way, so listen to Him and follow.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
You guys have worked so hard today to make sure you stay saved, you need a nap...




I have been in labor and hardship, through many sleepless nights, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure.[2 Corinthians 11:27]

See, Apostle Paul worked so hard to keep himself saved, he was too tired to sleep. He was afraid he'd lose his faith whilst asleep. :rolleyes::eek::confused:
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
Ye blokes are carrying the burden of maintaining your salvation.




Jesus is the One who carries my load for me...

casting all your anxiety on Him, because He cares for you.[1 Peter 5:7]
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Charity,love in action,is the greatest asset we can have.

Charity is greater than faith,for faith means nothing without charity.

1Co 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

Charity does not think an evil thought,and does not rejoice in iniquity,but rejoices in the truth.

Those that hold unto sin rejoice in iniquity,and not the truth,lack love,so they lack faith.

Charity is greater than faith,for faith means nothing without charity.

1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.
1Ti 6:7 For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Paul said without charity,we are nothing,and we err from the faith.

Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James said if we do not have charity,our faith is dead.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

John said if we do not have charity,the love of God does not dwell in us.

Charity is greater than faith.

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

We go by the 2 greatest commandments,love God,which He hates sin,and to love God we abstain from sin by the Spirit,for love does not think an evil thought,and does not do an evil deed.

We love people,which we go by charity,love in action,and love will feed and clothe the poor and needy,and help people with their needs,if it is possible.

Act 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
Act 2:45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.

Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
Act 4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

God only blesses us with our needs,not our wants,and to help other people with their needs whenever possible.

Without love there is no faith.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Abraham did the work of God,love God,for a person is justified by works,and not faith only,because love is greater than faith.

Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Rahab gave safe passage to the 2 Jewish men,love people,for a person is justified by works,and not faith alone,because love is greater than faith.

Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Jesus said they left their first love,the love of people,and they were fallen,and to repent,or there is no salvation.

Charity is greater then faith,and charity does not think an evil thought,and does not sin,and helps the poor and needy,and not go by their wants,and does not engage in worldliness spending money on things that are not a need,and neglecting the poor.

For there are millions of people that hold unto sin,and say they cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect their relationship with God,and cater to their wants,believing the prosperity Gospel,and neglecting the poor,and think they are alright,but that is not love.

Charity is greater than faith,and lack in love means faith is dead.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity is greater than love,and some people say faith alone,but it is love in action that saves us,for without charity,which does not sin,and helps the poor and needy,there is no faith.

That is what James is saying,if you do not have charity,your faith is dead.

Faith works through love,which means love comes first before faith can apply in a person's life.

No love,no faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

We are saved by grace through faith,which means without faith there is no love.

If we lack in charity,our faith is dead,and we have no grace,and we have no salvation.

Charity is greater than faith,and so many people that believe OSAS,and not saved by works,hold unto sin,and cater to their wants,and worldliness,and think they are alright,but that is a lack of love,which means their faith is dead.

Love does not think an evil thought,and does not sin,and does not go by wants,but their needs,and to help other people with their needs,at all times.

Lack of love,faith is dead.

Charity is greater than love.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

1Th 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men, even as we do toward you:
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

We cannot hate even one person,or we lack love,then no faith.

Love is not arrogant,not selfish,does not think an evil thought,and does not sin,and helps the poor and needy.

But there are millions of people that say not saved by works that lack love by their lifestyle,and neglect of the poor and needy,and think they are alright.

Charity is greater than faith.

It is not faith alone,it is charity,love in action,which many neglect,taking vacations,cruises,spending money on their wants,material things,worldliness,and hold unto sin,and then say,faith alone,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,but that is a lack of love,then faith is dead.

Jesus said whatever is in your heart is what comes out,so if they think sin,and do sin,then that is what is in their heart,so how does sin not affect their relationship with God,which God is not mocked,sow to the flesh,reap the reward of the flesh,for our actions,and thoughts,is what defines us,not we are clean even though we think sin,and do sin,and cater to our wants.

Look at the people in society that believe OSAS,and not saved by works,and see the worldliness about them,and then they say it is faith alone,but it is a lack of love,and charity,love in action,is greater than faith.

Faith means nothing without obeying God,and helping others with their needs,for to obey is greater than sacrifice,and bring every thought to the obedience of Christ,which Jesus said,the 2 greatest commandments is love God,and love people,neglect that,and there is no faith.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve:[Joshua 24:15a]

I know that choose today means I must choose everyday I wake up, if I am to void my faith and return to the world of the damned in sins. Lord, is today the day? Is it tomorrow? Or was it yesterday and I didn't know I voided my faith? Lord?!?!? Lord???



being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.[James 1:8]
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Thank you so much Bill:)...I am saving this to my computer and I am going to print two, one for my son in prison to put on his wall, it`s so hard for him because he is a babe in Christ, locked up 23 hrs a day around old faces from the manor he once walked, so I will send him this to encourage him, and then I will put mine on my wall and read it to remind me who I am in Christ:D...xox...
I too thought WHO I AM IN CHRIST poster was the best thing I ever saw on the subject. So I too saved it to my PC. Thank again BillG. And may God Bless you Rosemaryx, you are a breath of fresh air. :D

Here is something to encourage. When I first was born again, I discovered Dr. John MacArthur's radio program called "Grace To You". I heard him use this expression several times. "A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually. they will sin less, and less, and less."

Got an old Christian joke that explains the same principal.

Little Johnny was pulling the little girl's hair, who sat in front of him;
when his Teacher caught him.

She knew Little Johnny was Christian, so the Teacher scolded him,
"Johnny, that is not very Christ-like of you!"


Little Johnny said, "I know, but GOD is not finished with me yet."



[video=youtube;3uWIohv0HuQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uWIohv0HuQ[/video]
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
So then according to this doctrine, the life of the Christian has Jesus on a payment plan?

Jesus will keep making payments, paying the debt for sin, as long as the person keeps believing Jesus is making the payments?


The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in

You'll have to distinguish between the sin of the struggling, but still trusting saint, and the sin of the person who no longer trusts in Christ for you to address my post. The post you reference does not address that.

Struggling, sinning saints do not lose their salvation because of their sin. Only the person who stops abiding in Christ in unbelief loses their salvation, their return to willful sin being the evidence of that return to unbelief. The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in.
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
113
Is this a case of borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
I too thought WHO I AM IN CHRIST poster was the best thing I ever saw on the subject. So I too saved it to my PC. Thank again BillG. And may God Bless you Rosemaryx, you are a breath of fresh air. :D

Here is something to encourage. When I first was born again, I discovered Dr. John MacArthur's radio program called "Grace To You". I heard him use this expression several times. "A Christian is not sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually. they will sin less, and less, and less."

Got an old Christian joke that explains the same principal.

Little Johnny was pulling the little girl's hair, who sat in front of him;
when his Teacher caught him.

She knew Little Johnny was Christian, so the Teacher scolded him,
"Johnny, that is not very Christ-like of you!"


Little Johnny said, "I know, but GOD is not finished with me yet."



[video=youtube;3uWIohv0HuQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uWIohv0HuQ[/video]
I forgot to explain why that video. When I was first born again, my Spiritual MILK was Prophecy being explained and taught by Dr. John MacArthur via radio. So I here is a recent video by Dr. John MacArthur, about the future of ISRAEL, so ENJOY a long cold drink of Spiritual MILK.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
So then according to this doctrine, the life of the Christian has Jesus on a payment plan?

Jesus will keep making payments, paying the debt for sin, as long as the person keeps believing Jesus is making the payments?
Almost right. In reality it is PAID IN FULL on the Cross.


Romans 5:8-11 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.


1 Corinthians 6:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Don’t you know that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
[SUP]20 [/SUP] for you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body.


Romans 6:10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For the death he died, he died to sin once for all time; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
Thinking you can maintain your own faith and salvation, this is you when you're confronted by Satan...



But, thankfully, there is Someone who is greater and more powerful than Satan...



Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.[Matthew 12:29]

It is Jesus who has bound the strong man, Satan, cast him out of my life, and plundered me and cast out all remnants of Satan from inside of me, and now, He lives inside me.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
The weight you carry by working your way to heaven is too much for you to carry. It will eventually cause you to crumble under its weight...




You are looking like you're ready to void your faith and be lost again...



But take comfort in this...

“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest."[Matthew 11:28]



Its time you rest for your working your way to heaven, to resting in the Christ.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
Why do people think that doing the works of the Spirit is a burden,and not required,for what other works are they talking about besides doing works of the Spirit that would cause them to be right with God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Why do people think that doing the works of the Spirit is a burden,and not required,for what other works are they talking about besides doing works of the Spirit that would cause them to be right with God.
If you are hinting at tongues, I recommend dropping the subject now. It has nothing to do with this thread, and it sows, contention, discord, arguments, and bitterness EVERY TIME. That is bad fruit, and the opposite of Love. I know, because I have been in more discussions on that subject, than a wild cat has fleas. Same ultimate results everytime. Nothing good ever comes of that discussion, save it for Heaven.