Not By Works

[1ofthem]

Thank you 1ofthem ...This is a great help, I now know what to focus on...I was worrying slightly because my head was going round and round with how I am saved to the point I felt full up with it if you get my meaning, I believe this is why the Holy Spirit is showing me I need to walk on now and start chewing some meat...Even as I type I feel ready for more, I know longer have to go over and over about am I saved or not, this is written in my heart, it can not be snatched, the evil one has tried to take this many times and I have fallen for his lies, not no more, it is grounded in me, now I am ready to know who I am in Christ \o/...xox...

Amen sister...God Bless You

That's the enemies job to try to make us doubt and fear, but through Jesus we can take our stand and move forward in the Lord.

 

[PHart]

AMEN...end of story----->for one to lose salvation the God of HEAVEN must fail to keep his promises and his word......period!

He must fail to believe and trust in them, that is what causes a person to lose their salvation. The disobedient behavior that follows unbelief is simply the outward evidence and result of the decision to not believe/trust in Christ anymore.

 

[PHart]

AMEN....the mercy and grace of God were given freely in Christ before God even cast down the world.......and the faith it takes to believe is also GIVEN by GOD.......JESUS BEGINS and FINISHES our FAITH and brings it to fruition and COMPLETES the good work began in us......!

He gives the faith so that we can then believe/trust. The believing part is our responsibility what faith shows us to be true. And he gives lots of encouragement and continued faith to do that believing.

The faith to know the gospel is true so that we are able to trust in and accept Jesus is a gracious gift of God. We can't know that the gospel is even true to begin with except that God sends a conviction of the truth into our hearts first so we can then trust in it. That removes all possibility of boasting. No man can know the gospel is true on his own. Therefore, believing and continuing in that very same believing is not a work that man can boast in, therefore, it's hardly a works gospel to have to continue to believe in Christ through God's gracious gift of faith.

 

[dcontroversal]

He must fail to believe and trust in them, that is what causes a person to lose their salvation. The disobedient behavior that follows unbelief is simply the outward evidence and result of the decision to not believe/trust in Christ anymore.

POST 35558 .........

 

[dcontroversal]

He gives the faith so that we can then believe/trust. The believing part is our responsibility. And he gives lots of encouragement and continued faith to do that believing. The faith to be able to trust in and accept Jesus is a gracious gift of God. We can't know that the gospel is even true to begin with except that God sends a conviction of the truth into our hearts first. That removes all possibility of boasting. Believing and continuing in that very same believing is not a work that man can boast in, therefore, it's hardly a works gospel to have to continue to believe in Christ through God's gracious gift of faith.

Your dogma rejects, chunks and denies the words FINISHES and COMPLETES <----BOTH the work of Christ!

 

[PHart]

POST 35558 .........

If righteous, spiritual good works are the works of gold, silver and precious stones...which they are....How would you describe the works of wood, hay and stubble that get burned up, yet the person is still saved yet so as by fire?

The premise

Works of gold, silver and precious stones <---a faithful, spiritual believer

Works of wood, hay and stubble <----a ______._______.________ believer still saved so as by fire?

You'll have to distinguish between the sin of the struggling, but still trusting saint, and the sin of the person who no longer trusts in Christ for you to address my post. The post you reference does not address that.

Struggling, sinning saints do not lose their salvation because of their sin. Only the person who stops abiding in Christ in unbelief loses their salvation, their return to willful sin being the evidence of that return to unbelief. The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in.

 

[gb9]

You'll have to distinguish between the sin of the struggling, but still trusting saint, and the sin of the person who no longer trusts in Christ for you to address my post. The post you reference does not address that.

Struggling, sinning saints do not lose their salvation because of their sin. Only the person who stops abiding in Christ in unbelief loses their salvation, their return to willful sin being the evidence of that return to unbelief. The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in.

which is exactly why we should not judge others , since we do not know if they are a true believer struggling with sin, or a non- believer trying to act like one.

it is not our place to judge the condition of another's salvation, it is our place to speak truth.

 

[dcontroversal]

You'll have to distinguish between the sin of the struggling, but still trusting saint, and the sin of the person who no longer trusts in Christ for you to address my post. The post you reference does not address that.

Struggling, sinning saints do not lose their salvation because of their sin. Only the person who stops abiding in Christ in unbelief loses their salvation, their return to willful sin being the evidence of that return to unbelief. The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in.[/QUOTE\]

More fallacy.....study the word translated "in"......it is a FIXED position and we do not KEEP ourselves attached.......no more than a limb on a tree can sever itself.......

HE starts
He finishes
HE completes the work

THOSE who go out from us....NEVER were of us.....NEVER saved to begin with!

Salvation is not losable nor can a man forfeit it.......

 

[PHart]

Your dogma rejects, chunks and denies the words FINISHES and COMPLETES <----BOTH the work of Christ!

Your dogma ignores the fact that you have to continue to believe to have the sure promise of God to finish and complete what he started in you:

"encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:13-14 NASB)


​

Are you afraid of your responsibility to have to continue to believe? Don't be. Just rely on Christ to keep you able to believe. He is faithful to answer our concerns. He will help keep trust alive in us, if that's what we want. If you don't want that he will let you go. There will be no person converted against their will in heaven. They will not want to be there, and we believers will not want them there.

 

[PHart]

which is exactly why we should not judge others , since we do not know if they are a true believer struggling with sin, or a non- believer trying to act like one.

it is not our place to judge the condition of another's salvation, it is our place to speak truth.

I agree, but for the purpose of this discussion the believer who stops believing and goes back to his unbelief does not try to act like a believer. We're talking about the person who wants to go back to the world in unbelief. They give up the struggle with faith and believing and sin altogether. That person will lose his salvation. He no longer has Christ, by faith, to cover his sins. He will be destroyed on the Day of Wrath, not saved. He no longer has the power of God, by faith, keeping him for the day of salvation (1 Peter 1:5).

 

[PHart]

More fallacy.....study the word translated "in"......it is a FIXED position and we do not KEEP ourselves attached.......no more than a limb on a tree can sever itself.......

HE starts
He finishes
HE completes the work

THOSE who go out from us....NEVER were of us.....NEVER saved to begin with!

Salvation is not losable nor can a man forfeit it.......

As I've shown, 'never' is not in the passage nor implied in the passage. Nor can it be implied. Only a couple of Bible translations put the word 'never' in 1 John 2:19. Serious. Check it out. I posted the link.

Why are you afraid that you have to keep believing to be saved?
Were you afraid that you had to believe to be saved when you first heard the gospel?

God will help you believe/trust to the very end so you can be saved on the Day of Wrath.

 

[PHart]

Belief: "is not", how you access the "mercy" of God in salvation​.

Mercy is; God not giving us what we do deserve, "hell". - and; it is God's Sovereign will to whom He will bestow Mercy.

Grace is; God giving us what we do not deserve, eternal salvation" -- and this is freely given to those who believe.

Read your own post: Belief: "is not", how you access the "mercy" of God in salvation​. [...] and this is freely given to those who believe."

You said it's freely given to those who believe, yet you had just got done saying belief is not how you access the mercy of God in salvation. But anyway, here's the verse that says we access by faith:

"we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace" (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)​

 

[PHart]

I think john makes it clear.

1. He said they were were not of us, the verb is in the imperfect tense, it means they were in a continuous state of not being of us (they never were)

Here, this will help you correctly understand the imperfect tense: The Tenses Explained

Note especially this in the link:

"You don't know when they started their task, and you don't know how long they will keep it up. You just know that the work was in process when you looked." ​

It doesn't mean they were 'never' with us. It means they were not of us at some point in time in the past and continue to be so up to this moment.

2. He said, if they were of us they would have continued with us, continued is pluperfect tense, which means it would have been a completed action which had been completed at a point of time in the past, i.e., an action that would continue forever

The link I provided above will also help you correctly understand the pluperfect tense. Note especially the following about the pluperfect tense found in the link:

"The pluperfect has the same meaning as the perfect tense, except that it only brings the results of an action up to a selected time in the past. The perfect tense, in contrast, brings the results all the way up to the present." ​

It only means the results of the action continued up to a point in time in the past. It does not mean that the results of the action would continue forever into the future.

 

[MarcR]

You'll have to distinguish between the sin of the struggling, but still trusting saint, and the sin of the person who no longer trusts in Christ for you to address my post. The post you reference does not address that.

Struggling, sinning saints do not lose their salvation because of their sin. Only the person who stops abiding in Christ in unbelief loses their salvation, their return to willful sin being the evidence of that return to unbelief. The contemptuous unbelief itself is what loses their salvation for them because you can't have Christ's payment for sin that you no longer believe in.[/QUOTE\]

More fallacy.....study the word translated "in"......it is a FIXED position and we do not KEEP ourselves attached.......no more than a limb on a tree can sever itself.......

HE starts
He finishes
HE completes the work

THOSE who go out from us....NEVER were of us.....NEVER saved to begin with!

Salvation is not losable nor can a man forfeit it.......

I agree of course but I think an illustration might help:

1 Co 6:20
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
KJV
We were under condemnation and the penalty of Sin.
The word Lord means owner.

Jesus paid with His blood to redeem us from the penalty of sin

When we acknowledge Jesus as LORD we acknowledge His right of ownership both as creator and as redeemer.

Just like when you sell a car; once you transfer the title you can't undo the transaction.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Here, this will help you correctly understand the imperfect tense: The Tenses Explained

Note especially this in the link:

"You don't know when they started their task, and you don't know how long they will keep it up. You just know that the work was in process when you looked." ​

It doesn't mean they were 'never' with us. It means they were not of us at some point in time in the past and continue to be so up to this moment.





The link I provided above will also help you correctly understand the pluperfect tense. Note especially the following about the pluperfect tense found in the link:

"The pluperfect has the same meaning as the perfect tense, except that it only brings the results of an action up to a selected time in the past. The perfect tense, in contrast, brings the results all the way up to the present." ​

It only means the results of the action continued up to a point in time in the past. It does not mean that the results of the action would continue forever into the future.

1. Thanks, I already knew both, you assume to much
2. The text does not support your view. Yes, it CAN be translated that way, if the text allows it, i.e., in your examples it said there was a start point, in john 2, it never says there was a start point, it says they were not of us, the negative is then used, that they were never of us, which is how the translators translated it
3. Yes, it does not mean up to present, and it Can be changed, but again, the passage does not say it ended, in fact they are still gone, so we can by context know it is up to present. The reason the perfect tense is not used, is because there is still hope, if they repent, and come to true saving faith, then the status of being "not of us" will end,

what you did was show show how the Greek can be used in a wrong way, it ignores the rest of the passage, which would give us context.

 

[TruthTalk]

Read your own post: Belief: "is not", how you access the "mercy" of God in salvation​. [...] and this is freely given to those who believe."

You said it's freely given to those who believe, yet you had just got done saying belief is not how you access the mercy of God in salvation. But anyway, here's the verse that says we access by faith:

"we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace" (Romans 5:1-2 NIV)​

Originally Posted by PHart

"Belief is how you access the mercy of God in salvation" (Romans 5:2). No faith, no access to the power of God to keep you for the coming Day of Salvation (1 Peter 1:5).

Your post PHart say's; "belief is how you access God's mercy" look at Rom5:1,2 bellow, there is no mention of "mercy" or "Belief. -- the words are not spoken in this passage.

Text: Romans 5:1,2
1) Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2) through whom we have gained access by faith into this "grace" (not mercy), in which we now stand. And we boast in the hope of the glory of God.


Christians have gained access by faith into, "Grace not mercy", and there is no mention of "belief". in Rom5:1,2 only "faith" in our Lord Jesus Christ. The words you use to describe Romans5:1,2 "Belief and Mercy", are not even in this passage of scripture, it is plain for everyone to see. Romans 5:1,2 does not describe our position in Christ, (Grace) with the words Belief and Mercy as your post does.

Grace and Mercy are different aspects of our salvation in Christ; Romans5:1,2 speaks of God's Grace, unmerited favor, there is no mention of God's Mercy in this passage of scripture, a different subject all together concerning our faith.

Your post say's, Belief is how we access the mercy of God in salvation. Romans5:1,2
The bible say's, Through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord we gain access to God's Grace. Romans5:1,2

You have made a worthy post except for there is a big difference between Grace and Mercy and Belief and Faith;

God bless

 

[Rosemaryx]

Amen sister...God Bless You

That's the enemies job to try to make us doubt and fear, but through Jesus we can take our stand and move forward in the Lord.

That`s the word I was looking for, moving forward ...xox...

 

[TruthTalk]

​

I thought since this thread has new believer's, young believer's and young/old believer's like my self, that maybe some may appreciate reading a short example of what biblical Grace and Mercy looks like and what are the difference between both.

Grace and Mercy​

Biblical Grace:Kindness; favor.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by GRACE ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his GRACE in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by GRACE are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. ( Ephesians 2:4-9 )

Attribute: What is Grace? Bible Meaning and Definition

Biblical Mercy:not receiving what we deserve.

Genesis 39:21 “But the Lord was with Joseph and showed him steadfast love and gave him favor in the sight of the keeper of the prison.”

Quote:“
I would describe mercy as something that we don’t receive (God’s wrath) even though we deserve it. To put it another way, it is what we do not get that we rightly have coming to us. Mercy is almost the opposite of grace. It is what we get which we do not deserve, however mercy is where we don’t get what we truly do deserve and that would be the wrath of God (John 3:35b). There was only one time in all of history where God was unfair. God was merciless on the innocent Christ while pouring out His mercy on those who are guilty.”

Matthew 5:7 “Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.”

A person that is merciful will receive mercy because they understand what it means to be forgiving. The question for those who refuse to be merciful is whether they are really saved or not for how can they not forgive when they’ve been forgiven? A saved person is naturally forgiving since they have been forgiven. That is why Jesus told us to be merciful because our Father has been merciful to us

Attribute:http://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/09/14/top-7-bible-verses-showing-gods-mercy/

 

[dcontroversal]

Your dogma ignores the fact that you have to continue to believe to have the sure promise of God to finish and complete what he started in you:

"encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:13-14 NASB)


​

Are you afraid of your responsibility to have to continue to believe? Don't be. Just rely on Christ to keep you able to believe. He is faithful to answer our concerns. He will help keep trust alive in us, if that's what we want. If you don't want that he will let you go. There will be no person converted against their will in heaven. They will not want to be there, and we believers will not want them there.

Sorry, contextually it does Hebrews does not support losing salvation.....end of story.....just another self saved working for embellished false dogma....you should learn the word context and start applying it.....

 

[dcontroversal]

As I've shown, 'never' is not in the passage nor implied in the passage. Nor can it be implied. Only a couple of Bible translations put the word 'never' in 1 John 2:19. Serious. Check it out. I posted the link.

Why are you afraid that you have to keep believing to be saved?
Were you afraid that you had to believe to be saved when you first heard the gospel?

God will help you believe/trust to the very end so you can be saved on the Day of Wrath.

Try again, the bible does not teach that I have to maintain my salvation, regardless of how many verses you embellish, twist and or deny the context of....