Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Your true self is emerging, may I suggest you take a break?

No but I think your do. That is how many posts now where you have attacked, by these little sayings? You do that all the time to people. Then wonder why you get treated as you do. Instead of these little "bully" type sayings to try to discredit a person. Why not stick to the facts. Or at the very least, just say your disagree. You would earn much more respect that way.

Just because you have never heard of something does not make untrue....this is the first rule of any serious scholar, secular or Christian...will never violate....they will seek, study and find the answer....In this case, history and commentary refute you and soundly....

It is also very evident you have no clue about Gnostic doctrine and the fact it is very much alive today and is at the very core of the spirit of antichrist that is in the world now....Instead of manifesting senseless eisegesis about this subject it would be wisdom for you to study it out beyond CC.

You are overreacting because the truth of this passage proves without any doubt that it is not at all talking about salvation and takes away an apologetic weapon people think they have had forever....

and what we have here4 is a bunch of fluff. It is opinion, not based on fact. But your idea.

If you want to believe this, because you want to believe salvation can be lost. It is your right, I will not try to take that away from you. But again, If you think I am going to try to discuss the word with you when you act this way. You have another thing coming.

Wisdom would make you relax and ask the question, why did John talk about the spirit of antichrist and constantly and consistently warn believers not to believe people when they said Jesus was not the supreme being or savior....

Answer that.... and you may grow beyond the level you are most comfortable staying in...

wisdom would make us look and see, That John gave us the answer. And interpret the passage based on what JHohn said, it would not try to go outside the passage in order to make the passage fit our belief system.

1 John 2: 22 who is the liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the christ, he is ANTICHRIST who Denies the father and the son, whoever denies the son does not have the father, whoever acknowledges the son has the Father also.

John did not seperate these people or isolate who these people are into groups. He said ANYONE, Anyone includes Gnostics, Jews, Athiests, Pagans, ANYONE who denies JESUS is the CHRIST is included. If you want to interpret the way you are, and not take John at his word. Thats on you. thanks, but no thanks, as far as I am concerned, John is clear in what he said, I do not have to twist his words to make my belief come true.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not good to be either, but we will know who is who. Deep calls to deep.

Nope it is not. Lazy people do not get to enjoy the joys of life. Lazy christians miss out on the joys of spiritual life.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Vitriol from who?

Mostly from those who are preaching his gospel.

I have noticed, when people are likeminded, especially when they are likeminded in a gospel of works, they can not see their own sins. But they are quick to judge what they see as sins in others.

I think is one of the things we should watch out for. It is a sign, Like the Pharisee, who saw themselves as saints, and everyone else as sinners.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

so says the man that argues in favor of sin at all cost

How does this person continue, why does anyone respond to him anymore? He does nothing to add to the conversation, all he does is judge people (FALSLY i may add) time and time again.

 

[Grace777x70]

Nope it is not. Lazy people do not get to enjoy the joys of life. Lazy christians miss out on the joys of spiritual life.

The true grace of God makes us labor more then others when we are operating from the true grace of God and not from religious zeal. There is a vast difference between the 2 although outwardly they can "look the same".

God's grace in Christ =

1 Corinthians 15:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me.


Religious zeal =

Matthew 23:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

Here Paul talks about his "zeal" for God.

Philippians 3:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

I noticed that both groups of people here in Psalm 127:1 were "building the house".

Psalm 127:1 (NASB) Unless the LORD builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the LORD guards the city, The watchman keeps awake in vain.

We can build things by the flesh or by the grace of God in us which births His good works within us and it is these good works that He has prepared for us to walk in. Eph. 2:10

It is also these desires that He has birthed within us where we can ask whatsoever we desire when we pray and it shall come to pass.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

...and yet absolutely nothing but slanderous accusations, and nothing in way of substantiation to those (your) lying claims.

I think he needs to be added to my "Ignore" or "time out" list.. Until he learns how to understand peoples true beliefs, and not his view of what people believe.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Brother Dcon has never done this. All I see are unsubstantiated claims from you. You should get some proof to these claims -- I'll be waiting.

Don't hold your breath

 

[BillG]

No but I think your do. That is how many posts now where you have attacked, by these little sayings? You do that all the time to people. Then wonder why you get treated as you do. Instead of these little "bully" type sayings to try to discredit a person. Why not stick to the facts. Or at the very least, just say your disagree. You would earn much more respect that way.


and what we have here4 is a bunch of fluff. It is opinion, not based on fact. But your idea.

If you want to believe this, because you want to believe salvation can be lost. It is your right, I will not try to take that away from you. But again, If you think I am going to try to discuss the word with you when you act this way. You have another thing coming.



wisdom would make us look and see, That John gave us the answer. And interpret the passage based on what JHohn said, it would not try to go outside the passage in order to make the passage fit our belief system.

1 John 2: 22 who is the liar, but he who denies that Jesus is the christ, he is ANTICHRIST who Denies the father and the son, whoever denies the son does not have the father, whoever acknowledges the son has the Father also.

John did not seperate these people or isolate who these people are into groups. He said ANYONE, Anyone includes Gnostics, Jews, Athiests, Pagans, ANYONE who denies JESUS is the CHRIST is included. If you want to interpret the way you are, and not take John at his word. Thats on you. thanks, but no thanks, as far as I am concerned, John is clear in what he said, I do not have to twist his words to make my belief come true.

hi EG,

My understanding is that John writing was two fold.
Both pastoral and polemic.

Polemic being addressing the false teachings of the Gnostics and Cerinthianism.

So refuting the heresy and reiterating the truth is also part of the pastoral.
If believers were to fall for such heresy then this could affect church unity.
If believers are able to distinguish between heresy and truth then the unity as John talks about would be maintained.

I am sure John knew that a persons behaviour was as a result their beliefs

Get the foundations right then everything else should follow.

 

[preacher4truth]

And why is that FAKE NEWS?

Plato died in in 348 or 347 BC.

Wouldn't that be obvious since Plato died long before the aforementioned were ever born?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

hi EG,

My understanding is that John writing was two fold.
Both pastoral and polemic.

Polemic being addressing the false teachings of the Gnostics and Cerinthianism.

So refuting the heresy and reiterating the truth is also part of the pastoral.
If believers were to fall for such heresy then this could affect church unity.
If believers are able to distinguish between heresy and truth then the unity as John talks about would be maintained.

I am sure John knew that a persons behaviour was as a result their beliefs

Get the foundations right then everything else should follow.

I am sure they had many false teachers in those days,

as I study JKohn, one of the things I see is theyt he is really concerned with letting people know how they can KNOW they are saved. And how they must hold on to the fact theat they are eternally secure.

As with any church, people had to wonder why these people who were a part of the church, appeared to be on fire for God. And walked for some time as a brother or sister in christ all of a sudden left. And because against the church and against christ himself.

To me, that is the question John is answering.

Not only for their day, but for our day, I have known people like this, and wondered myself. How can you go from one extreme to another.

Gnosticism may have been one great heresy John was fighting, but i think as with most all things against christ, what can be said about one heresy can also be said about others heresys which basically make the same claim.

ie, Gnostics deny christ

Yet so do Jews

So does Islam

So do pagans

so do atheists and agnostics.

Does the message fit?

if a person was a member of a church, and seemed like they walked with Gd and as our brother and sister. And all of a sudden, left to join one of these groups and denied that jesus was the christ, would it fit them as well?

They all deny jesus is christ

so it would fit them all.

 

[PHart]

I think is one of the things we should watch out for. It is a sign, Like the Pharisee, who saw themselves as saints, and everyone else as sinners.

Yes, I have noticed this about the church with this recent influx of H-grace teaching. That teaching excuses unrepentant, even willful sin and claims immunity by the blood of Christ while condemning everyone else who doesn't agree with them that grace is a licence to show up at the Judgment without any works. Even those in the church that aren't officially H-grace have traces of this 'sin doesn't matter' teaching in their doctrines. It's overtaking the church. I suspected it was a demonic spirit at work spreading this thinking, but now I'm convinced it's a spirit at work in the church--the spirit of anti-christ. And I believe this is the end-times work of the spirit of anti-christ preparing the way for the Man of Perdition. I also believe that the day is not far away when people like myself who speak out against it will be martyred. The rabid dog resistance I meet in the church about this subject is showing me that.

 

[PHart]

Vitriol from who?

No names.

No, no, not NoNameMcGee, lol. I mean, I'm not naming names. That would be counter productive.

 

[PeterJens]

I implied nothing of the sort.

Try to stick to the facts for once, not your fabricated nonsense.

I merely pointed out how you and others feel yourselves righteous, point to yourselves as such, and show contempt for others. Just like the aforementioned of whom Christ spake in the given passage.

I am sorry you read things in this way.
Firstly you are saying I am not being factual.
Then you are saying I am fabricating nonsense.
Then you accuse me of contempt.

This is a lot of accusations without saying in regards to what.
And it is you who is showing contempt to me.

This is where your whole discussion and your approach goes wrong.
It is like having someone coming up to me and just pushing me away without
anything said or justified.

Until you can manage something better than this, I apologise but I just have to ignore
you. In Christ I love you and desire you see there is more than ideas to following
Jesus, but I think your theological pride is getting in the way.

You remind me of people who call out in a crowd to cause a disturbance but contribute
nothing helpful.

 

[dcontroversal]

Mostly from those who are preaching his gospel.

I have noticed, when people are likeminded, especially when they are likeminded in a gospel of works, they can not see their own sins. But they are quick to judge what they see as sins in others.

I think is one of the things we should watch out for. It is a sign, Like the Pharisee, who saw themselves as saints, and everyone else as sinners.

Absolutely agree with this.....we, like Paul, see ourselves for who we really are in the flesh and in Christ.......they cannot get past themselves because they must tow the line or lose it......!

 

[PeterJens]

...and yet absolutely nothing but slanderous accusations, and nothing in way of substantiation to those (your) lying claims.

lol, what a joker you are. If I could take you seriously I would actually doing myself more harm
than good.

Do you think abuse, and accusation calling helps your cause?
I think you must but then look whose example you are following?

Bad company corrupts the character, example 1.

 

[dcontroversal]

Yes, I have noticed this about the church with this recent influx of H-grace teaching. That teaching excuses unrepentant, even willful sin and claims immunity by the blood of Christ while condemning everyone else who doesn't agree with them that grace is a licence to show up at the Judgment without any works. Even those in the church that aren't officially H-grace have traces of this 'sin doesn't matter' teaching in their doctrines. It's overtaking the church. I suspected it was a demonic spirit at work spreading this thinking, but now I'm convinced it's a spirit at work in the church--the spirit of anti-christ. And I believe this is the end-times work of the spirit of anti-christ preparing the way for the Man of Perdition. I also believe that the day is not far away when people like myself who speak out against it will be martyred. The rabid dog resistance I meet in the church about this subject is showing me that.

Are you sure you do not attend the 1st United Church of Works and Self Righteousness?

If you believe as you do...a self attained and maintained salvation by works why would you even go to a church that teaches a biblical faith thru grace salvation? See, you like all other brainwashed workers for (just dealt with one in Australia) say the exact same thing like a pre-programmed answer and go to line of argument....

You should look the word MANY and the gravity of the definition in Greek and then look at how many teach your vanilla café blend.....very eye opening.....! HAHAHHAHA WOW...

 

[PHart]

Phart...I am not afraid of anything in the word.....I love the truth, embrace the truth

Then can you admit that John was not saying that simply being a recipient of God's love in salvation is the reason one can have no fear of the coming Judgment, but rather that he said it is the one who is like Him in this life, loving others, that has the reason to not fear the coming Judgment?

...and have no issue with serving....you guys assume that because this thread is about salvation dia faith thru grace that we do nothing...

I don't know what you do or don't do. It's impossible for me to know that. I just know you defend the person who does nothing since you are so sure salvation can not be lost. But also, when it's convenient, you'll argue that the saved person will invariably have works....then you'll get angry when someone dares suggest that you have to have those works because saved people with genuine faith work. It's quite difficult to untangle your doctrine.

the difference between you and I is I do not trust works as the nail in the equation to save me or keep me saved....

You don't know that about me any more than I can know that you don't do, or do, works of righteousness. It's not right for you to be able to judge, but have a fit when you suspect someone is judging you.

I've made it abundantly clear what my doctrine is: Works are the required evidence of the faith that saves all by itself. They don't earn salvation. And even though you and others claim that works will without exception follow the person who has saving faith you refuse to acknowledge what I say is true, that true believers must have works, for even as you say, truly saved people have works. It's like you folks are harboring the secret belief that true faith does NOT have to have works attached as validation of that faith while you offer lip service to the fact that true faith must do works of righteousness. Like I say, you folks have a very duplicitous doctrine.

 

[dcontroversal]

Then can you admit that John was not saying simply being a recipient of God's love in salvation is the reason one can have no fear of the coming Judgment, but rather that he said it is the one who is like Him in this life loving others that has the reason to not fear the coming Judgment?



I don't know what you do or don't do. It's impossible for me to know that. I just know you defend the person who does do nothing since you are so sure salvation can not be lost. But also, when it's convenient, you'll argue that the saved person will invariably have works....then you'll get angry when someone dares suggest that you have to have those works because saved people with genuine faith work. It's quite difficult to untangle your doctrine.



You don't know that about me any more than I can know that you don't do, or do, works of righteousness. It's not right for you to be able to judge, but have a fit when you suspect someone is judging you.

I've made it abundantly clear what my doctrine is: works are the required evidence of the faith that saves all by itself. And even though you and others claim that works will without exception follow the person who has saving faith you refuse to acknowledge what I say is true, that true believers must have works for even as you say, truly saved people have works. It's like you folks are harboring the secret belief that true faith does NOT have to have works attached as validation of that faith while you offer lip service to the fact that true faith must do works of righteousness if it really is true faith. Like I say, you folks have a very duplicitous doctrine.

ALL means ALL.....Love CAST out ALL FEAR

YET, you judge me, accuse of a do nothing doctrine and assume I live in sin

I can judge your dogma and it does not line up nor come close to what the bible teaches concerning eternal security, the promises of God and or the inspired verb tense applied unto salvation.

I judge your doctrine based upon the word.....YOU assume because I believe in salvation by grace dia faith eternally........your only hang up which is enough to keep you from making the cut.....blending faith and REQUIRED works to MAINTAIN.....not found in scripture.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

Be back later.....I must go do some works because I love my neighbor.....NOT to KEEP salvation I might ADD!

 

[PHart]

Are you sure you do not attend the 1st United Church of Works and Self Righteousness?

If you believe as you do...a self attained and maintained salvation by works why would you even go to a church that teaches a biblical faith thru grace salvation? See, you like all other brainwashed workers for (just dealt with one in Australia) say the exact same thing like a pre-programmed answer and go to line of argument....

You should look the word MANY and the gravity of the definition in Greek and then look at how many teach your vanilla café blend.....very eye opening.....! HAHAHHAHA WOW...

I'm pretty sure you have agreed that true saving faith will have works attached. But then you judge me as a works salvationist if I say the same thing. Stop and ask yourself why you do that.

I've made it abundantly clear that I do not believe works earn salvation but rather works are the 'natural' outcome of the person who has justifying faith, just as you have said the same thing. If my plain words about what I believe about works not being able to earn salvation can't be seen by you, how could you possibly see what I'm trusting in in the hidden place of my heart? Think about it.

Why are you vehemently defending the person who claims to have faith but has no works to validate that faith as being real?