Not By Works

[dcontroversal]

Both spoke of Abraham.. and one states he was justified by works and then elaborates...the other states He was not justified by works as in circumcision. Both speak of Faith.

both knew Faith that worketh love was Faith that we are to have.

Faith alone is dead James states.

Believe GOD as Abraham did through the Lord's Testimony.

Faith is perfected by works.. what works? The Master gave us our instructions.

works are part of Faith.. whether you believe it or not.. those that Hear His voice are not deceived by those that misunderstand what Paul was teaching.

cart before the horse? ..

No.. it was always the Good Shepherd before the sheep leading them on the path of Righteousness.

May we all believe unto the saving of our souls.

Author of Everlasting life to those that obey Him.

Argue with Paul....We CONCLUDE a MAN is justified BY FAITH without works....

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)

It is not a matter of ox before the cart, but rather about a pseudo café blend false gospel of faith + works to be justified before GOD

 

[loveme1]

Abraham was justified by faith some 30 plus years before he offered Isaac, before he was circumcised, Paul said that Abraham believed God and it was put to his account for righteousness....and then concluded that a man is justified by faith void of works!

In relation to Abraham what did James conclude?

 

[Limey410v2]

For TruthTalk

start around 50 seconds...... my kind of guitar pickin HAHAHH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eId2QESuqSY

I saw him play in 88, Monsters of Rock, he is incredible.

 

[dcontroversal]

I saw him play in 88, Monsters of Rock, he is incredible.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAH NO WAY...me too....Arrowhead Stadium Kansas City, $25 general admission.....Kingdom Come, Metallica, Dokken, Scorpions and Van Halen....

WOW small world hey

 

[stonesoffire]

Matthew 5

5 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.


______________

open question for anyone who wishes to share what they believe God has shown them regarding this verse


what does the bolded text mean to us?
(in context)

The scribes and Pharisees loved to sit around discussing religion. But, their heart wasn't changed by what they studied and taught. And they looked down on those of the common people. Is in effect even today by some sects. No love as a shepherd. Jesus was always teaching the perfection of the Spirit of the law, contrasting with the letter, showing that there was something more needed. They questioned (disciples) among themselves over and over what Jesus meant, and even "if these things are true, then who can be saved."

The comment about the commandments and teaching and doing them was for the Jews and their understanding at the time. Those of the same sect as Jesus, practiced their laws religiously. Yet could never do perfectly, hence blood sacrifices.
When Jesus was resurrected and ascended, then sent Holy Spirit as teacher, comforter, and empowerment. Dunamis.

And Paul is chosen to teach the grace that came with the Cross, blood sacrifice once for all mankind, and the unity of God and man, the new creation, body of Christ on earth. Moving in power, moving in love. Everything given freely to us by the will of inheritance that Jesus "wrote" that we could do the will of God from the heart.

 

[dcontroversal]

In relation to Abraham what did James conclude?

The same thing I have always said.......BEFORE MEN (JAMES-->SHOW ME YOUR FAITH) the faith that SAVED and JUSTIFIED eternally before GOD is seen by his works!

HOWEVER.....the works DO NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED or JUSTIFY one before GOD.......it is FAITH and FAITH alone that saves a man, justifies a man, seals a man and sanctifies eternally in Christ.

 

[loveme1]

Argue with Paul....We CONCLUDE a MAN is justified BY FAITH without works....

NOT by works of righteousness which we have done, but ACCORDING to his mercy has he SAVED US (past tense)

It is not a matter of ox before the cart, but rather about a pseudo café blend false gospel of faith + works to be justified before GOD

Argue with Paul? Why.. I believe Paul I just don't believe you understand the Scriptures and error. I don't know who taught you the things you share but they don't Align with Scripture.

a verse misunderstood is not the True Gospel to proclaim stubbornly.

We are saved by Grace through Faith unto good works..

We are to be righteous and perfect... an instruction from the Lord.. I believe Him.

 

[Grace777x70]

Doing righteous deeds by themselves does not make one righteous. This is having the cart before the horse.

I know there have been "good" people doing "righteous deeds " but they were not belonging to God. Many religions have good moral living people in them - all doing "righteous deeds".

Here is how righteousness is manifested in a believer....we need to be righteousness conscious...not sin-conscious...we are a new creation in Christ now!

This "righteousness " will manifest outwardly in doing righteous deeds - but we need the "horse" in front first.

The "horse" being Christ's righteousness in us because of our being in Christ in our inner man..our new creation in Christ.

Awake to who you are in Christ!..Awake to righteousness and sin not..when you see who you are in Him in your new man...you will then manifest outwardly who you already are now in Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] But we all, with unveiled face,beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.


Hebrews 5:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13[/SUP] For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 54:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "In righteousness you will be established; You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear; And from terror, for it will not come near you.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21[/SUP] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

When you see who you are in Christ because of His finished work...you become outwardly in behavior what you are truly like in your new inner man where Christ dwells and His life gets manifested in love towards others in this hurt and dying world.

 

[loveme1]

The same thing I have always said.......BEFORE MEN (JAMES-->SHOW ME YOUR FAITH) the faith that SAVED and JUSTIFIED eternally before GOD is seen by his works!

HOWEVER.....the works DO NOT SAVE, KEEP SAVED or JUSTIFY one before GOD.......it is FAITH and FAITH alone that saves a man, justifies a man, seals a man and sanctifies eternally in Christ.

2 Timothy 4


For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.



We are to fight the good, we are to finish the race we keep the Faith and the righteous judge will give us our crown. Does this not remind you of what the Lord states in Revelation 2 and 3?

 

[loveme1]

Friends here seeking...search the Scriptures with a willing heart.. ask for understanding and may GOD bless you with the Truth that will set you free.

Let no man come between you and the Lord's Testimony. Your house will stand when you build on Him.

Peace and love to you all.

 

[dcontroversal]

2 Timothy 4


For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.



We are to fight the good, we are to finish the race we keep the Faith and the righteous judge will give us our crown. Does this not remind you of what the Lord states in Revelation 2 and 3?

SO what...earning crowns have ZERO to do with the eternal salvation that is given freely by faith.....wake up to the truth!

 

[dcontroversal]

Argue with Paul? Why.. I believe Paul I just don't believe you understand the Scriptures and error. I don't know who taught you the things you share but they don't Align with Scripture.

a verse misunderstood is not the True Gospel to proclaim stubbornly.

We are saved by Grace through Faith unto good works..

We are to be righteous and perfect... an instruction from the Lord.. I believe Him.

So...you believe a vanilla café blend of faith and works to gain, keep or embellish salvation?

Galatians 1 and 3 condemns this view as foolish, bewitched, double cursed and no power.........and one that Paul did not preach....a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND......

You do know that the vanilla café blend gospel you hold on to is exactly what Jesus addresses when he states that MANY will come before my throne saying....HAVE WE NOT.........

 

[Magenta]

Where is the biblical proof for this?
(That any can lose their salvation)

Is there a single example of anyone doing that in the Bible? Is there a single example of anyone having the power to do that in the Bible?

I think J.F. Strombeck said it best:

If one who has been saved and is dead to the Law by the body of Christ could be lost, then it would be possible to put to death the same person twice. This is impossible. To say it is possible for one who has been saved to be lost, is to deny the value of the substitutionary death of Christ.

If one could "give back" their salvation, it would be necessary to return him into the state of being under the Law. As he was freed from the Law by payment of the death penalty, he can be brought back under it only by undoing the execution of his substitute (Christ). Until that is done, the Law can have nothing to say to him.

The Bible says we have been purchased by Christ. That which is owned has no right of will contrary to the will of the owner. It has liberty to go, only within the limits granted by the owner. It is perfectly clear then, that the Good Shepherd does not grant to any sheep that has cost Him so much to place in His own hand for safety, the privilege of jumping out of it. (John 10:28-29)

It would also contradict His words, "they shall never perish," for if one could jump out they must perish.

God's hand is not an open hand, it is a hand that holds.

Such a good find

 

[TruthTalk]

There is no confusion taken in context........

Romans-->Paul--->Justified before God by faith without works
James--->James-->The above is seen before MEN by works

Works do not save or keep saved

God bless you dcontra, there is no contradiction between Paul and James; there never has been and never will be; but the Grace plus works people love to parade James' verse down main street all of the time. Grace plus my wonderful works = pride = Cainology. You are saved unto good works not by them, nor will they keep you saved. It is from the out pouring of God's love shed abroad in our heart and the leading of the Holy Spirit that we can accomplish any good work and it has nothing to do with maintaining your salvation. Pure over flowing with pride, the original sin.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace." Galatians5:4

 

[dcontroversal]

God bless you dcontra, there is no contradiction between Paul and James; there never has been and never will be; but the Grace plus works people love to parade James' verse down main street all of the time. Grace plus my wonderful works = pride = Cainology. You are saved unto good works not by them, nor will they keep you saved. It is from the out pouring of God's love shed abroad in our heart and the leading of the Holy Spirit that we can accomplish any good work and it has nothing to do with maintaining your salvation. Pure over flowing with pride, the original sin.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace." Galatians5:4

Amen bro........I agree.....!

 

[Locutus]

Is there a single example of anyone doing that in the Bible? Is there a single example of anyone having the power to do that in the Bible?

I think J.F. Strombeck said it best:

If one who has been saved and is dead to the Law by the body of Christ could be lost, then it would be possible to put to death the same person twice. This is impossible. To say it is possible for one who has been saved to be lost, is to deny the value of the substitutionary death of Christ.

If one could "give back" their salvation, it would be necessary to return him into the state of being under the Law. As he was freed from the Law by payment of the death penalty, he can be brought back under it only by undoing the execution of his substitute (Christ). Until that is done, the Law can have nothing to say to him.

This is not quite how Paul sees it:

Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

So effectively this is one situation where a person has become alive to the Law again.

 

[TruthTalk]

This is not quite how Paul sees it:
Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

So effectively this is one situation where a person has become alive to the Law again.

This is a false statement and How convenient of you to leave out
the very next verse;

"Galatians 5:4" "Christ is become of "no effect unto you," whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

Galatians5:6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision noruncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

Tisk, Tisk, where has all our spiritual discernment gone; gone to grave yards everyone; when will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.

True Gospel


​

 

[Locutus]

Nothing you added to my post alters anything I stated, I did not need to quote the rest of Paul's statement because I'm speaking to Christians here that presumably know what Paul said to the Galatians.

 

[TruthTalk]

Nothing you added to my post alters anything I stated, I did not need to quote the rest of Paul's statement because I'm speaking to Christians here that presumably know what Paul said to the Galatians.

Okay excuse me.

 

[PeterJens]

All this discussion really centres on one eternal truth.

How do you know who is saved and who is not?
They make promises.
They fulfill their commitments.
They perform acts of faith.
They live a life worthy of the King.
They have an active spiritual existance with the Lord and His people.

Now what would be fair? To send all to destruction, and only spare a few on a whim,
a statement here, a conviction there? Or is it those who just have the veneer of faith
but not its reality, no beating heart of love and life, no victory over sin and evil, but just
an acknowledgement of God is great and powerful and could save them?

What is the basis of the Kingdom? Is it just acknowledging man in lost in sin and his behaviour
tied in knots that appear impossible to undo? If this was so then the whole world is saved
already, or soon will be when the veil of death is torn back.

No, when the veil is torn back there are two groups. Those who stand in rebellion and those who
fall in worship to their King, the Lord of all. And on that day it is not a choice people make it is
a revealing of what is within.

And do people know where humanism came from? The gospel, because so many spiritual nutcases
liked the idea of going to heaven, but practically loving people and choosing poverty and service was
a step too far. And those who had a real heart of love wanted to reach out and show this love as a
living sacrifice. No wonder so many hate the practical outworking of love and care, because it levels
us all to the humans we are, in need of love, and able to love and support those around.

I praise God He sent this salt into the world, a people who love despite circumstance, who reach out
despite violence and hatred, and forgive and care to the people within. Jesus did this for us, so likewise
we need to do it for others.