The Rapture

[heartofdavid]

The component missing in the church<>assembly argument is " the body of Christ" .

The BOC is Jew and gentile,but mainly gentile.

Again the book of Ruth. Ruth was the gentile bride,and Naomi was the Hebrew "tag a long"

The messianic Jew is part of the gentile bride,but Boaz's attention is towards RUTH,the bride.

This ties in with the AC murdering all Christians left behind. It is not an opinion,but written vividly to drive home PURPOSE.

THE time of the gentiles has to end.

Martyrs receive a great and high reward.

In acts it says "...at the restitution of all things..."

Those left behind,the foolish church,gets restored.

 

[Issachar92]

The Jews called the 100th Trump from the Shofar during the Feast of Trumpets, the LAST TRUMP. You would think the Church would spend some time Studying the Seven Feasts of Israel, and find out why GOD gave specific instructions on how they were to be carried out.

Yup ya got it right on the feast of trumpets. Can confirm. This is where the phrase "no man knoweth the day nor the hour" comes from, because you needed two witnesses to be on the look out cause the shofar blown was dictated by the moon.
Also another thing to point out to those not in the know is that Jesus fulfills all the feasts, ima attach an image on this post to make it easier to grasp:

 

[garee]

VCO, your avoiding the question. Since Jesus said "I will build my church" which is in the future tense, how do you explain this? Regarding the trumpets, the last one of that type of trumpet has yet to be sounded and that because the church is still here.

Its a continuous building represented as a city prepared as His bride. It has nothing to do with flesh and blood used to represent the unseen faith principle. God had favor of Abel but did not have mercy of Cain. Abel being the first building block as the bride of Christ.

Christ will come on the last day,as a thief in the night (no sign to seek after) ...judgment day, the last trump like with Jericho for the unbeliever. The same day the believers receive their new incorruptible bodies all in the twinkling of an eye at the sound of the last trump all saints those asleep and those who remain alive reigning with Christ on earth by faith (the unseen) will arise, the second and final resurrection.. .

The Holy Spirit underscores that point six times.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. .....(once)

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Not some then and another group later.

The idea of a mixture of those with incorruptible bodies as new creatures that are neither Jew nor gentile, male or female mixed with the corrupted creation is not I believe a biblical teaching.

The thousand used in parables is the key that signifies as it represents a unknown .God does not count those he formed Christ in. When David did destruction came. The Mormons is one that do count the 1444,00 as not signified .They have run out of numbers long ago

 

[Ahwatukee]

Its a continuous building represented as a city prepared as His bride.

You're missing the point! Jesus said, "I will build my church," which as I pointed out is in the future tense. You don't say "I will build" if something already exists. If it was as you suggested, the Lord would have said, "I will continue to build my church" or "I will add on to my church." But if you say, "I will build" then it hasn't been built yet.

God had favor of Abel but did not have mercy of Cain. Abel being the first building block as the bride of Christ.

Abel was not the bride of Christ, nor were any of the OT saints. The church began when Christ appeared and began to build it, which is still in the process of being built this very day. The "last day" that you continue to emphasize, is not referring to a specific date on Tuesday or any of the other days of the week, but are collective words referring to the entire time period leading up to the Lord's return. In the same way "the day of the Lord" nor the "hour of trial" is neither a day nor an hour in length, but refers to that entire time of God's wrath.

Last day = entire end time period

 

[Allenbee]

Issachar 92...thank you so much for that great insight, and super great chart.

So Messianic Jew helps Messianic Gentile. Very cool.

I know how corrupted the Greek scriptures are, and always believed the Hebrew scriptures could help sort the mess out.
Thank you again.

Shalom brother, and may I ask you some questions ?

 

[VCO]

Good evening VCO,



Just to clarify, I did not say that they were not co-equal. I said that they are not apart of the church, just as the great tribulation saints are not apart of the church. Also, please explain to me what the Lord meant when He said, "I will build my church," those words being in the future tense? It would be an improper proclamation if the Ekklesia already existed. If that was the case, it would be more accurate to say, I will add on to the church or continue to build the church. But when you say "I will build my church" it infers that this group called the Ekklesia/church had not yet been built. Would you not agree?

There are just different groups under Christ. For example, you have the group of 144,000 who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel, who will acknowledge that Jesus is their Messiah. This group, though not apart of the church, will sing a song in heaven that no one can learn except the 144,000. Different group.

Since the entire church--dead and living--will have already been gathered and these 144,000 will be on the earth after the church has been gathered, then they do not belong to the church, but are under a different group, just as the great tribulation saints are, who are all Gentiles. It does not necessarily mean that they are not equal, it just means that they belong to a different group.

If we look at chapters 1 thru 3 of Revelation, only the word Ekklesia/church is used and you will not find the word Hagios/saints used in those same chapters. Likewise, from chapter 4 onward, the word Ekklesia/church is never used again throughout the narrative of God's wrath. Likewise, the great tribulation saints are never referred to as the Ekklesia/church, even though there are plenty of places in scripture that they could be referred to as such. The answer though is that they are not the church. After the end of chapter 3 they are always referred to as Hagios/saints.

Here is another thing to consider, Israel was referred to as God's wife and not as His bride. The Ekklessia/church on the other hand, is referred to as the bride of Christ. We are not yet married to Him, for the wedding of the Lamb will not take place until the bride/church has been resurrected and caught up, as demonstrated in Rev.19:6-8. At that point we then receive our fine linen, white and clean (wedding gowns).

Did you forget that GOD considers the Jewish and Gentile True Believers to be the same, as long as BOTH HAVE THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM, believing in the Messiah?


Galatians 3:17-29 (ESV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
[SUP]19 [/SUP] Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.
[SUP]24 [/SUP] So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.
[SUP]25 [/SUP] But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian,
[SUP]26 [/SUP] for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.
[SUP]27 [/SUP] For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
[SUP]28 [/SUP] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]29 [/SUP] And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

O.T. Saints (those who believed God would send the Messiah) and N.T. Saints are CO-EQUAL heirs to the Promises of Salvation by GRACE through FAITH, but I see your claims to be almost like saying, you are a Jew sit at my footstool, and NOT BESIDE ME. I am sure that is not the way you meant it, but doesn't your reasoning in a way make true O.T. Believers, second class citizens of Heaven?

Was not the PROMISE to be Married to HIM made to both O.T. Saints and the N.T. Saints? The confusion only comes because someone AFTER THE TIME OF THE APOSTLES, chose to add to the Definition of Ekklesia, the definition that had become the popular at that time, Church, which technically is a non-God given Title for the N.T. Assembly. WHY IS IT OKAY TO ADD TO THE MEANING OF CHRIST'S WORDS? IS NOT ACCEPTING THAT, A FORM OF WHITEWASHING A HUMAN ERROR? I am not saying giving a name to things is wrong, because Adam was commanded to name the all the animals. Here is what seems WRONG to me, to say Jesus said that humanly assigned TITLE, which came about AFTER THE BIBLE WAS FINISHED, is an ERROR? The more I think about it, the more I am convinced it wrongfully placed a barrier between O.T. Saints and N.T. Saints.

Deuteronomy 4:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.


Why are so few willing to stand up for the LITERAL Translation of the word Ekklesia? Could it be because the ADD-ON Title definition of "CHURCH", makes them feel superior to the True Believers within the Jews of the Old Testament? Are not BOTH GROUPS saved by Grace through faith?

I absolutely with all my heart believe the TWO FOLDS that JESUS refers to, are the O.T. ASSEMBLY of TRUE BELIEVERS, and the N.T. ASSEMBLY of TRUE BELIEVERS, and that misinterpretation of "Jews and Gentiles" was as grievous error in interpretation, that creates a contradiction that HE CERTAINLY DID NOT MEAN, because HE ALSO INSPIRED "There is neither Jew nor Greek". Therefore the TRUTH that HE meant to convey was the O.T. ASSEMBLY and the N.T. ASSEMBLY. YES the N.T. Assembly is future tense, and the O.T. ASSEMBLY is past tense. BUT THE TWO WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK under ONE SHEPARD at the RAPTURE.

John 10:14-16 (HCSB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “I am the good shepherd. I know My own sheep, and they know Me,
[SUP]15 [/SUP] as the Father knows Me, and I know the Father. I lay down My life for the sheep.
[SUP]16 [/SUP] But I have other sheep that are not of this fold{N.T. ASSEMBLY}; I must bring them also, and they will listen to My voice. Then {AT THE COMPLETION OF THE N.T. ASSEMBLY, THE RAPTURE, AND NOT BEFORE.} there will be one flock, one shepherd.


2 Chronicles 29:28 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] And all the congregation {assembly} worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: and all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

2 Chronicles 29:28 (NASB)
[SUP]28 [/SUP] While the whole assembly {congregation} worshiped, the singers also sang and the trumpets sounded; all this continued until the burnt offering was finished.

Hebrew NASB Number: 6951

Hebrew Word: [FONT=&quot]‏קָהָל‎[/FONT]


Transliterated Word: qahal (874c)
Root: from an unused word;

Definition: assembly, convocation, congregation:--


New American Standard Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible.

2 Chronicles 29:28
[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]28 καὶ πᾶσα ἡ ἐκκλησία [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]{assembly} προσεκύνει, καὶ οἱ ψαλτῳδοὶ ᾄδοντες, καὶ σάλπιγγες σαλπίζουσαι, ἕως οὗ συνετελέσθη ἡ ὁλοκαύτωσις. [/FONT]

[FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]
[/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]Is that word in the verse of 2 Chronicles [/FONT][FONT=Palatino Linotype,Athena]29:28 in Septuigant, NOT EKKLESIA? The very word that ONLY meant Assembly or Congregation at the time of Christ and at the time of the Apostles. How is it that an ADD-ON meaning is so widely accepted and supercedes the original meaning, when it is not what Jesus Christ LITERALLY SAID? No I cannot read Greek, but obviously the English Language copied the letter K from the Greek, making it easy to find.

I used this linked to compair English to the Greek Septuigant:
[/FONT]https://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=14&page=29

When you come to realize that we did God a disfavor when substituted the word CHURCH for the Literal Definition of Assembly or Congregation. It becomes obvious that:

O.T. Saints are the Congregation of the LORD that HE has built.

AND

N.T. Saints are the Congregation of the LORD that HE has built.

AND THE TWO WILL BECOME ONE FLOCK AT THE RAPTURE.


Isaiah 62:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.

Hosea 2:19-20 (HCSB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] I will take you to be My wife forever.
I will take you to be My wife in righteousness, justice, love, and compassion.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] I will take you to be My wife in faithfulness, and you will know Yahweh.


Is that WILL not future tense?


Malachi 2:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "For I hate divorce," says the LORD, the God of Israel, "and him who covers his garment with wrong," says the LORD of hosts. "So take heed to your spirit, that you do not deal treacherously."




What is AMAZING, is Messianic Jews look at those verses and say:
"ISRAEL is the Bride of Christ."
Christains look those verses and say:
"The CHURCH is the Bride of Christ."
When the truth is: BOTH ASSEMBLIES ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.


So move over Christians and make room on those heavenly pews at the Wedding of the Lamb, for our O.T. brothers and sisters IN MESSIAH. OH and BTW, the Tribulation Saints get the WHITE LINEN TOO. They just arrive late without their resurrected bodies.


Revelation 6:9-11 (NRSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slaughtered for the word of God and for the testimony they had given;
[SUP]10 [/SUP] they cried out with a loud voice, "Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long will it be before you judge and avenge our blood on the inhabitants of the earth?"
[SUP]11 [/SUP] They were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number would be complete both of their fellow servants and of their brothers and sisters, who were soon to be killed as they themselves had been killed.


OH, Just so you KNOW, in an Orthodox Jewish Wedding, the woman is referred to as a Bride from the moment she accepts the Proposal and the Jewish Levitical Divorce Laws required a Divorce, even from a bride, which GOD HATES; and she is referred to as the Wife after the wedding ceremony. That does not take place until we are in Heaven in the Father's House.

 

[VCO]

Yup ya got it right on the feast of trumpets. Can confirm. This is where the phrase "no man knoweth the day nor the hour" comes from, because you needed two witnesses to be on the look out cause the shofar blown was dictated by the moon.
Also another thing to point out to those not in the know is that Jesus fulfills all the feasts, ima attach an image on this post to make it easier to grasp:

Thank you, that will be useful, so I saved it on my PC.

 

[Issachar92]

Shalom brother, and may I ask you some questions ?

Sure thing. Go ahead

 

[VCO]

VCO, your avoiding the question. Since Jesus said "I will build my church" which is in the future tense, how do you explain this? Regarding the trumpets, the last one of that type of trumpet has yet to be sounded and that because the church is still here.

Like I said, I believe Jesus was talking about the N.T. Assembly which was ALL FUTURE TENSE when HE said those words, and the people HE said them to were the LAST of the O.T. Assembly. Jesus is the fulfillment of the Feast of Trumpets and the Resurrection of Dead believers both O.T. and N.T. begins at the LAST TRUMP. That could possibly mean that we will hear 99 Trumpet Blasts on the GREAT TRUMPET before the Last Trump, OR it could be just the ONE LONG BLAST on the TRUMP of GOD getting louder and louder, which is the way the Last Trump in the Feast of Trumpets is blown. That will be the signal for the Calling Out of the ASSEMBLY He has built, and the Calling back of the Remnant of the People of Israel to return back to the Land of Israel for the 70th Week of Daniel.

The Feast of Trumpets is also known as Yom Teruah which literally means the “Day of Blowing”. This is the only Feast Day when the shofar is blown during the service 100 times! They are blown in a set pattern of 3 different sounds, blown 3 times each for a total of 9 blasts. This series of patterns is repeated 11 times for a total of 99 blasts. The 100th blast is set apart and this is the blast that is known as the “Last Trump”!
Rosh Hashanah

Yes, I too have heard all the wild theories about what the "Last Trump" is, but the Truth is right there in the Celebration of the Feast of Trumpets. The Church would not have missed the understanding if we had kept practicing the Seven Feasts of Israel.

[video=youtube;grZDPCKORGg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grZDPCKORGg[/video]


Here is Zola Levitt explaining the FEAST OF TRUMPETS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAKM8kCBuD8

 

[Allenbee]

Thank you Issachar.

First ... I don't agree with all Messianic Jews, as their beliefs differ concerning us gentiles.
I agree with VCO here;

What is AMAZING, is Messianic Jews look at those verses and say:
"ISRAEL is the Bride of Christ."
Christains look those verses and say:
"The CHURCH is the Bride of Christ."

When the truth is: BOTH ASSEMBLIES ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

Yes...as they become one in YHWH...thank you Lord Yeshua. (Jesus).

Personally I believe; this Ekklias or congregation is "the woman" at Rev 12; 9-17, that will crush satans head. Gen 3;15..

Your thoughts please brother. (I hope)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Greetings Allenbee,

Personally I believe; this Ekklias or congregation is "the woman" at Rev 12; 9-17, that will crush satans head. Gen 3;15..

The woman of Revelation 12 is not the Ekklesia. Scripture provides the literal meaning behind the symbols of the sun, moon and stars regarding the woman, which is revealed in Genesis 37:9-10

Sun = Jacob
Moon = wife/wives
stars = Eleven tribes of Israel and Joseph makes twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is symbolically representing the nation Israel.

Another reason what the woman cannot be the church is because, the events of Revelation 12 takes place in the middle of the seven years, which would put the church through the majority of God's time of wrath, which we are not appointed to suffer.

Also, if you will notice, the word Ekklesia/church is never used again after the end of chapter 3. The church is never mentioned during the narrative of God's wrath, because at that point it is no longer on the earth.

 

[Allenbee]

Thank you Issachar.

First ... I don't agree with all Messianic Jews, as their beliefs differ concerning us gentiles.
I agree with VCO here;

What is AMAZING, is Messianic Jews look at those verses and say:
"ISRAEL is the Bride of Christ."
Christains look those verses and say:
"The CHURCH is the Bride of Christ."

When the truth is: BOTH ASSEMBLIES ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

Yes...as they become one in YHWH...thank you Lord Yeshua. (Jesus).

Personally I believe; this Ekklias or congregation is "the woman" at Rev 12; 9-17, that will crush satans head. Gen 3;15..

Your thoughts please brother. (I hope)

 

[Allenbee]

Hello Ahwatukee, well done on being a great Bible student, but you interpretations are all to suit a pretrib rapture...that I will NEVER trust. I mean if it doesn't happen...you in the dwang brother.

About this;

Sun = Jacob
Moon = wife/wives
stars = Eleven tribes of Israel and Joseph makes twelve

Therefore, the woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars is symbolically representing the nation Israel*.

First of all at end times we have "the Israel of God*"...Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile as Jesus set up.
Then we read about the WHOLE house of Jacob. "There is neither Jew or gentile" , "sons of Abraham".

So to me... you have to separate the Israel of God to suit your "church" rapture before the great tribulation.

Not for me buddy, nor will I argue this death trap teaching, as the woman "flies to the wilderness".

To me, there is no "too soon" to "flee to the mountains" to live GOD'S WAY .

 

[Nehemiah6]

Hello Ahwatukee, well done on being a great Bible student, but you interpretations are all to suit a pretrib rapture...that I will NEVER trust...

Since Ahwatukee did not invent the Pretribulation Rapture, there is no need to suggest that he interprets Scripture to fit that doctrine. In fact he does an excellent job in clearing up confusion and pointing out errors.

For those who have ears to hear, Christ Himself has consistently taught that His coming for His saints is IMMINENT. It could even happen today.

 

[VCO]

Thank you Issachar.

First ... I don't agree with all Messianic Jews, as their beliefs differ concerning us gentiles.
I agree with VCO here;

What is AMAZING, is Messianic Jews look at those verses and say:
"ISRAEL is the Bride of Christ."
Christains look those verses and say:
"The CHURCH is the Bride of Christ."s

When the truth is: BOTH ASSEMBLIES ARE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

Yes...as they become one in YHWH...thank you Lord Yeshua. (Jesus).

Personally I believe; this Ekklias or congregation is "the woman" at Rev 12; 9-17, that will crush satans head. Gen 3;15..

Your thoughts please brother. (I hope)

I should have said the Majority of Messianic Jews are convinced that Israel is the Bride, while there are quite a few Messianic Congregations who believe like I do. The Woman in Revelation 12 is clearly ISRAEL because we HAVE TO BE IN HEAVEN before the Red Horse Rider rides, because throughout the Bible Great Wars were allowed as part of God's punishment and wrath. Early in Revelation Chapter 6, GOD sends the RIDER of the Red Horse to "TAKE PEACE FROM THE EARTH". That will be the Greatest War, most totally involved War, this planet has ever seen. I believe the brevity of the statement, is because it implies it will be a very short war, and therefore in my opinion it is WWIII, gone full blown Nuclear. I think this is the most likely scenario: If Iran or the Antichrist starts it, Israel will retaliate, then the USA will jump in to protect Israel, and then Russia will get involved, followed by EU and England, then Red China and then Australia, and somewhere in there North Korea, India, and Pakistan, will take on their neighbors. A World War that leaves most of the world devastated, and parts of it totally DESOLATE. Followed by NUCLEAR WINTER, the sun and moon will be darkened, etc. Just my personal opinion of how it could all play out.

Revelation 6:3-4 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword {possible reference to Nuclear War}.

It will be a Time like no other, because the Holy Spirit will be TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY, because we are going to the Wedding of the Lamb in Heaven. While we are in Heaven (our ultimate ARK). Mankind without the Holy Spirit in us being present on earth, will be free to become as EVIL and VICIOUS as they can get. So we have to be gone before Chapter 6, possibly as early and Chapter 4, because we were Promised that we were not destined to WRATH, and Revelation 6 is all about the beginning of their WRATH. Most of the Prophecies in Revelation dealing with what is happening here on earth, are LITERALLY the 70th Week of Daniel, bringing about the conclusion of the 70th WEEK prophecy with ISRAEL, so YES the WOMAN in Chapter 12 is Israel. But you may have meant Chapter 11, because we are clearly mentioned in Rev. 11:15-17, where we are in heaven singing praises to our GOD.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NRSV)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For God has destined us not for wrath but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

12:1 sign. A symbol pointing to something else. This is the first of seven signs in the last half of Revelation. Cf. verse 3; 13:13, 14; 15:1; 16:14; 19:20. a woman. Not an actual woman, but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the OT as the wife of God (Isa. 54:5, 6; Jer. 3:6-8; 31:32; Ezek. 16:32; Hos. 2:16). Three other symbolic women appear in Revelation: (1) Jezebel, who represents paganism (2:20); (2) the scarlet woman (17:3-6), symbolizing the apostate church; and (3) the wife of the Lamb (19:7), symbolizing the true church. That this woman does not represent the church is clear from the context. clothed with the sun... moon under her feet... twelve stars. Cf. Genesis 37:9-11. Being clothed with the sun speaks of the glory, dignity, and exalted status of Israel, the people of promise who will be saved and given a kingdom. The picture of the moon under her feet possibly describes God’s covenant relationship with Israel, since new moons were associated with worship (1 Chr. 23:31; 2 Chr. 2:4; 8:13; Ezra 3:5; Ps. 81:3). The twelve stars represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

The MacArthur Bible Commentary.

 

[Allenbee]

Hello VCO

Nope I disagree, there are earthly survivors of the GT so not a nuclear wipeout, but maybe targeted hits on America and retaliations! Damascus for sure is flattened, so that probably will be from Israel that has to start things.

Please consider the first 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation
"but on account of the chosen ones... those days will be cut short or NO FLESH will be left alive".

So to me these are the righteous chosen ones on earth who survive, by fleeing the destruction, preaching the Kingdom of God. Math 24; 14-22

AND... there are the unrighteous survivors too who mourn at seeing the sign of our lord's presence.

At this stage now before the final 3 ½ years of God’s WRATH… there IS a rapture.

So... that's how I read Math 24, just as it's written.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

THEN
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven*, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (war in heaven) Rev 12; satan and his demon’s cast down* v4 and 7-9.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Only Now…is there a rapture (for some)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOW comes the WRATH of GOD for the final 3 ½ years. EVERYTHING man-made is destroyed (idols), so no nuclear rockets, but worse … as SATAN and his demons are cast out of heaven forever, so are now are on earth as man.

THIS is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the disgusting thing causing desolation, standing in the holy place (Israel).Rev 12;v12, knowing he has a short period of time.

The righteous still preaching God’s Kingdom in satans cities “fly to the wilderness” for the final 3 ½ years…AWAY from Satan, but martyr’s stay. V17.

Near the end of the 3 1/2 years, Satan lead's his followers to attack "those dwelling with no bars and no walls" (the voice in the wilderness proclaiming the kingdom of God... THIS is Armageddon... GOD'S WAR led by Jesus.

The END

(Of the bad guys...Yahooo)

 

[Allenbee]

Sorry... Near the end of the 3 1/2 years, Satan lead's his followers to attack "those dwelling with no bars and no walls"
Satan is Gog, Ezekiel 38,39, and again after the 1000 year reign.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Sorry... Near the end of the 3 1/2 years, Satan lead's his followers to attack "those dwelling with no bars and no walls"
Satan is Gog, Ezekiel 38,39, and again after the 1000 year reign.

Hello Allenbee,

You are confusing two different events. The event of Gog and Magog in Ezk.38-39 takes place some time prior to the thousand years. And the other event of Rev.20:7-9, where the people are cast as a type of Gog and Magog, takes place at the end of the thousand years.

 

[VCO]

Hello VCO

Nope I disagree, there are earthly survivors of the GT so not a nuclear wipeout, but maybe targeted hits on America and retaliations! Damascus for sure is flattened, so that probably will be from Israel that has to start things.

Please consider the first 3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation
"but on account of the chosen ones... those days will be cut short or NO FLESH will be left alive".

So to me these are the righteous chosen ones on earth who survive, by fleeing the destruction, preaching the Kingdom of God. Math 24; 14-22

AND... there are the unrighteous survivors too who mourn at seeing the sign of our lord's presence.

At this stage now before the final 3 ½ years of God’s WRATH… there IS a rapture.

So... that's how I read Math 24, just as it's written.

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

THEN
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven*, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. (war in heaven) Rev 12; satan and his demon’s cast down* v4 and 7-9.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Only Now…is there a rapture (for some)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOW comes the WRATH of GOD for the final 3 ½ years. EVERYTHING man-made is destroyed (idols), so no nuclear rockets, but worse … as SATAN and his demons are cast out of heaven forever, so are now are on earth as man.

THIS is the antichrist, the man of lawlessness, the disgusting thing causing desolation, standing in the holy place (Israel).Rev 12;v12, knowing he has a short period of time.

The righteous still preaching God’s Kingdom in satans cities “fly to the wilderness” for the final 3 ½ years…AWAY from Satan, but martyr’s stay. V17.

Near the end of the 3 1/2 years, Satan lead's his followers to attack "those dwelling with no bars and no walls" (the voice in the wilderness proclaiming the kingdom of God... THIS is Armageddon... GOD'S WAR led by Jesus.

The END

(Of the bad guys...Yahooo)

I did not say everyone in the world would be killed, did I? I also did NOT say WWIII, has anything to do with the Pouring out of the WRATH OF GOD in the last 3.5 years. I said the Antichrist will come with authority to Conquer, it says so, because he is the rider of the white horse who carries only a bow, who is given the authority to go out and conquer. VERY EARLY in his SEVEN YEAR REIGN, either he, or someone like Iran, starts WWIII, which is the Rider of the Red horse who is given authority to take PEACE from the Earth, and that is WWIII. Several areas of the World will be left Desolate from what I called WWIII and THEN about 4 years later the comes the Final Battle when Antichrist and his demons motivate all the nations Armies to gather to attack Jerusalem to try to STOP Christ from COMING BACK. Areas in the world that are prophecied to be left Desolate Either by WWIII or the Final Battle are: Babylon (Iraq), Edom (Jordon), Damascus and the surrounding area, ISRAEL, New York City (New City Babylon), and probably several other areas. So there are TWO WARS in future Prophecy that have NEVER BEEN FOUGHT YET, Antichrist's Efforts to Conquer the World (WWIII) and THE WAR where the Antichrist and his demons, influence the world's Armies to attack Jerusalem which is later, perhaps as much as 4 years later. I absolutely believe THAT Final Battle against Israel and Jerusalem, is the War that will leave Israel a wasteland, and it happens just before the Second Coming. But don't worry, Our Lord can RE-CREATE THE LAND OF ISRAEL, even FLATTENING EVERYTHING SOUTH TO NEARLY THE END OF THE DEAD SEA, to make room for more farms and homesteads for the people wanting to be close to Jerusalem.

Zechariah 14:8-10 (CSBBible)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike. {Creating a huge, irrigation source to water the newly formed farmland plain South of Jerusalem. All you need is the Irrigation Canals. Too far away you say? Then you do not know that most of the water for farms in the San Quaqine Valley in the Middle and Southern parts of California, comes from Resevoirs like Shasta Dam in Northern California, via man-made Canals.}
[SUP]9 [/SUP] On that day the LORD will become King over the whole earth??—??the LORD alone, and his name alone.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But Jerusalem will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.



Ask any Rabbi, what is meant by living water in verse 8 above, and he will tell you that it means running water from a spring or river. So you have the Gihon Springs changed into a permanent source spring to feed the two rivers, and a VAST amount land flattened into farmland, and a REQUIREMENT to come the Jerusalem once a year to worship KING YESHUA, and Celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. To me that says Surviving Mortals would do well to move to Israel for the Millenium and homestead a farm in the newly formed Plain, South of Jerusalem.


Zechariah 14:1-6 (CSBBible)
[SUP]1[/SUP] Look, a day belonging to the LORD is coming when the plunder taken from you will be divided in your presence.
[SUP]2 [/SUP] I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle. The city will be captured, the houses looted, and the women raped. Half the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be removed from the city.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]

Then the LORD will go out to fight against those nations as he fights on a day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. The Mount of Olives will be split in half from east to west, forming a huge valley, so that half the mountain will move to the north and half to the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] You will flee by my mountain valley {some think it is all the way to Petra that they flee, but to me the wording seems to imply a highly protective, newly formed box canyon with high walls, like the box canyon cave city ruins, I saw near Gorme, Turkey when I was stationed in Turkey while I served in the USAF.}, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of King Uzziah of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with him.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]

On that day there will be no light; the sunlight and moonlight will diminish.



The Smoke and dust forced into the upper atmospheres from a full scale Nuclear World War, would accomplish that, it brings about what is called a NUCLEAR WINTER.

The years will be shortened to SEVEN YEARS, because of the mortals chosen to repopulate ISRAEL wiill be destroyed in that War and those chosen mortals are the 144,000 Jews sealed in there Mortal Bodies. The Two Witnesses and the 144,000 during the Great Tribulation, lead a LOT OF PEOPLE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD!

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (Matt. 24:31)

After the unrepentant ungodly have been judged and destroyed, and the repentant mourners have trusted in Christ and been saved, He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect. Among their other responsibilities, angels are God's gatherers. In that day they will be used to gather unbelievers for judgment and punishment (Matt. 13:41, 49) and believers for reward and glory.


In ancient Israel, as in many ancient lands, the trumpet was used to announce important convocations, and the sound of the angel's great trumpet will signal the assembling all of God's saints on earth, from wherever they might be, from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Many of them will doubtless still be hiding in caves, fearful for their lives. The gathered ones will include the 144,000 Jewish witnesses, their converts, and the converts of the angelic preachers.
. . .
Those will all be assembled together before Christ and ushered into the glory of His eternal kingdom.


MacArthur New Testament Commentary, The - MacArthur New Testament Commentary – Matthew 24-28.

There are even Survivors from the NATIONS that attack Israel.


Zechariah 14:16-17 (CSBBible)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Then all the survivors from the nations that came against Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of Armies, and to celebrate the Festival of Shelters.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] Should any of the families of the earth not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of Armies {Hosts}, rain will not fall on them.

Ezekiel 35:1-15 (GW)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The LORD spoke his word to me. He said,
[SUP]2 [/SUP] “Son of man, turn to Mount Seir, and prophesy against it.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Tell it, ‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: I'm against you, Mount Seir. I will use my power against you, and you will become a wasteland.
[SUP]4 [/SUP] I will turn your cities into ruins, and you will become a wasteland. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
[SUP]5 [/SUP] “‘You have always been an enemy of Israel. You deserted the people of Israel in battle when they were in trouble during their final punishment.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] That is why, as I live, declares the Almighty LORD, I will let you be murdered. Murderers will pursue you. Since you don't hate murdering people, murder will pursue you.
[SUP]7[/SUP] I will turn Mount Seir into a barren wasteland, and I will destroy everyone who comes or goes from there.
[SUP]8 [/SUP] I will fill your mountains with those who have been killed. Those killed in battle will fall on your hills and in your valleys and ravines.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] I will turn you into a permanent wasteland. Your cities will not be lived in. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “‘You said, “These two nations, Israel and Judah, along with their land, belong to us. We will take possession of them.” But the LORD was there.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] That is why, as I live, declares the Almighty LORD, I will do to you what you did to them. When you were angry and jealous, you acted hatefully toward them.
[SUP]12 [/SUP] Then you will know that I, the LORD, heard all the insults that you spoke about the mountains of Israel. You said, “They have been deserted and handed over to us to use up.”
[SUP]13 [/SUP] You bragged and continually talked against me. I heard you.
[SUP]14 [/SUP] “‘This is what the Almighty LORD says: The whole earth will be glad when I turn you into a wasteland.
[SUP]15 [/SUP] You were happy when the land of Israel became a wasteland. I will do the same thing to you. You will become a wasteland, Mount Seir, and so will all of Edom. Then you will know that I am the LORD.'”



Mount Seir is in Edom (Jordan), which is VERY NEAR PETRA, that is why I DOUBT that the Remnant of Israel will flee to Petra, because that is like jumping out of the pot, and landing right in the FIRE.

 

[VCO]

You got to hate that FIVE MINUTE EDIT RULE. The above post has a bad typo in it. Here is the corrected paragraph, sorry.


The years will be shortened to SEVEN YEARS, because of the mortals chosen to repopulate ISRAEL, which will be destroyed in that War, are those chosen mortals who are the 144,000 Jews sealed in there Mortal Bodies. The Two Witnesses and the 144,000 during the Great Tribulation, lead a LOT OF PEOPLE TO ACCEPT JESUS AS LORD!