Not By Works

[Stunnedbygrace]

I have, they State they can lose salvation. The s they are boasting of their works being better than other people works. They consistently judge others, the continue to talk about sin, and not God and his Great Salvation

Once again, many godly men have believed one can be cut off for subsequent unbelief and many godly men have believed it is impossible.

To believe the latter does not necessarily mean a man is boasting in anything he has done. It is possible that he is boasting - I've seen that. But I've also seen men walk in the Spirit consistently and with growing consistency, who believe they can be cut off for subsequent unbelief, so they take any unbelief or mistrust on their part very seriously and they set to prayer on it when the Spirit points it out to them.

 

[Grace777x70]

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[Meggido]

Scripture confirms the heart condition of those who fall away, in that they are not saved. Specifically, Jude confirms that apostates are those who don't have the Spirit.

The world's definition of apostates is different to the biblical definition, which is why some have this wrong belief that apostates were once believers. But Jude confirms apostates never had the Holy Spirit, so right there is confirmation of the truth. If you read the entire chapter it says much about non believers.

How can a non-believer fall away from something they never believed in the first place?

What is next the arm twisting to try to convince dear readers here that falling away in the Bible does not really mean falling away in the way the Bible says it means...

 

[loveme1]

I have, they State they can lose salvation. The s they are boasting of their works being better than other people works. They consistently judge others, the continue to talk about sin, and not God and his Great Salvation

Like is said elsewhere a million good works will save no one.. it is Faith in the Messiah that saves us to be under Grace and not law.. but at liberty to love and serve.. obeying the Good Shepherd.

Only His Blood covers our sin and can reconcile us with GOD.

Anything not done in Faith of the Messiah is unacceptable...

The Just shall live by Faith.

Believing unto the saving of our souls.


As for those you know of only the Lord can know what they do in Faith of Him.

I like it when the Messiah teaches about those being forgiven of more loving Him more...

 

[loveme1]

Ephesians 2:4-10 (NASB)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

[SUP]6 [/SUP] and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

[SUP]7 [/SUP] so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Grace if a person wrote things at the end of those verses to create doubt in ones mind about what is written would it be a good thing?

 

[Grace777x70]

The reality is people can be going to church every time the doors are open, praying 5 hours a day, read their bibles 3 hours every day, witness to every thing that moves, be trying to make disciples in all nations, be pastoring a church for 30 years, read the scriptures in Greek and Hebrew, live good moral lives and still be "fallen away" from the faith.

The "fallen away" which is the Greek word [FONT="Gentium" !important]aphistēmi [/FONT]really means to "with draw from, depart from, abstain from"

People "fall away from the faith" when they rely on what they do or don't do for life and righteousness instead of relying on what Christ has already done.

Unbelievers are in a constant state of "apostasy" - for God has commanded all the nations to be "obedient to the faith". Which is to believe in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

 

[Grace777x70]

Grace if a person wrote things at the end of those verses to create doubt in ones mind about what is written would it be a good thing?

I'm not catching your drift. Give me an example and maybe I can answer your question then.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Once again, many godly men have believed one can be cut off for subsequent unbelief and many godly men have believed it is impossible.

To believe the latter does not necessarily mean a man is boasting in anything he has done. It is possible that he is boasting - I've seen that. But I've also seen men walk in the Spirit consistently and with growing consistency, who believe they can be cut off for subsequent unbelief, so they take any unbelief or mistrust on their part very seriously and they set to prayer on it when the Spirit points it out to them.

once again

no one believes a person who has CLAIMED to b saved, yet now has given God the finger, says he does not believe he exists, has become an antichrist is saved, so wth them I will not argue.except to use 1 john 2 where John said they were never save to begin with, (I tried to do this with meggido, but his true self showed)

thats not what most are arguing here, true believers in God do not go out judging people, they do not keep talking about sin, they do not boast about how good they are (by judging others). And they do not attack people who profess they are saved by grace alone through faith alone, and declaired that all people who are saved will do works of God, because God will perfect their faith,

the ONLY reason you talk about sin and attack people,who understand people who are saved will work because they are saved, is because your belief is in your work. Not in the cross,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Like is said elsewhere a million good works will save no one.. it is Faith in the Messiah that saves us to be under Grace and not law.. but at liberty to love and serve.. obeying the Good Shepherd.

Only His Blood covers our sin and can reconcile us with GOD.

Anything not done in Faith of the Messiah is unacceptable...

The Just shall live by Faith.

Believing unto the saving of our souls.


As for those you know of only the Lord can know what they do in Faith of Him.

I like it when the Messiah teaches about those being forgiven of more loving Him more...

then teach this to he lost, stop attacking people who also believe this, and believes God will perfect them until the new, and stop telling Gods people they must not sin, or else...

I.e.. teach the gospel, not works.

 

[loveme1]

then teach this to he lost, stop attacking people who also believe this, and believes God will perfect them until the new, and stop telling Gods people they must not sin, or else...

I.e.. teach the gospel, not works.

Back up the accusation?

 

[preacher4truth]

Departing from the faith is not a departure from salvation. It is a departure from the church's teaching, the doctrine that they were under, and its influence. This is what the faith implies; it is the doctrine being taught by the church.

When a person departs from this truth, this doctrine, the Gospel teachings, rejecting them only proves they were not converted; note 1 John 2:19 &c and 2 John.

Many people have been under the influence and enlightenment of the Gospel and have departed. Others leave the teaching and embrace other ideologies or religions - this shows that they never had eaten the bread of life nor had they drank of the living water as they were found to not be satisfied, but still hungering and thirsting showing they remain unregenerate. When we eat this bread and drink this living water, we never thirst again, and we never hunger again; note John 4 & 6.

Many attempt to force the lost into salvation only in order to use the straw man to prove they were lost afterward. These also attempt to undermine the faith of those trusting wholly in Christ, and in the salvation they have received as a free gift. This behavior is nothing new, it was dealt with in Paul's day, most notably perhaps in his epistle to Galatia.

 

[Grace777x70]

We have defined "apostasy" from our own understanding of that term. It simply means in the Greek "to depart" or "to separate from."

So, we have heard sermons from our church upbringing where "apostasy" was used and put in some scriptures here and there and we come up with a doctrine. Now the "meaning" of apostasy has taken on a whole life within itself.

It is used 16 times in scripture and all the meanings are the same "To separate or to depart" "stand separate from" - "withdraw from".

Here is an example of it being used.

1 Timothy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


The truth is all of us in some form are standing apart from some things that Christ has done for us. We can know that we have the peace of Christ but we withdraw or depart from believing in that because our mind cannot get around the natural circumstances.

The famous scripture that is used from those believe we lose salvation is 1 Tim. 4:1 - but let's look and see what it is really saying "in context".

They usually love to just quote the part about seducing spirits and doctrines of devils ( which they usually apply to something they don't believe in but some one else might ).

Let's see what Paul was actually saying "departing from the faith actually is".

1 Timothy 4:1-5 (NASB)

[SUP]1 [/SUP] But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away (apostesontai - this is the word - apostasy ) from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,

[SUP]3 [/SUP] men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with gratitude;

[SUP]5 [/SUP] for it is sanctified by means of the word of God and prayer.

What is going to cause this "falling away" ( apostasy )...people who forbid others to marry...and not to eat certain foods...why is this departing from the faith?...it's in verse 3, 4 and 5.

verse 3 = which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth. It's in knowing who you are in Christ - who is the truth and the faith.

This not marrying and not eating certain foods to keep yourself "separated" from others is a form of self-effort and reliance on a D.I.Y. self-righteousness/holiness mindset.

This is "departing from the faith - apostasy"....... people creating their own righteousness/holiness through their works of the flesh by self-effort when we are to believe on Christ's work on the cross and resurrection for all things.

It has the "appearance " of good but it denies the power to effect real change ...which is Christ in us and His life being manifested in and through us.

.. man-made religion denying the finished work of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So we see that the word "apostasy" is not what some try to make it into.

There are many warnings in scripture about living your own ways and thoughts contrary to God such as depending on the flesh for life instead of walking by the spirit and they should be heeded if you want His life to be manifested in us.

Let's build believers up in Christ and feed them the proper nutrients of proclaiming the love and grace of our Lord for them and these will give them the proper foundation in Christ and then the warnings will be applied in context of Christ's finished work on the cross and not on a works-based, fear-based belief system which only nullifies the very grace of God needed for us to live in this earth.

 

[Meggido]

It may not be as set in stone as you think sis.

I would study it more, and not assume it was the HS who spoke to you.

The truth is, it says I a person who falls away, they can not be renewed to repentance, For that would put christ to open shame.

why would the fact that a person, who lost salvation, then being resaved (renewed to repentance) put Christ to shame

Answer that question. That is where I would start.

came off ignore to address grave possible danger and foolishness here...



Dear reader, heed and read and learn....

Check out the enlarged and bold red statement above...

If you have the Holy Spirit leading you and the Holy Spirit has revealed something to you that gives you peace and assurance and you know it is was him leading you into that revelation.....and a thief/hireling/robber starts sowing doubt into what the Holy Spirit has shown and spoken to you...do not let it sway you...and remember what Jesus himself said about this...
John 10.4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.

The way we know the Holy Spirit has led us, shown us and spoken something to us...is through the Peace of God...

Isaiah 26.3-
You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you!

If something is said to you that brings total and abject confusion to what he Holy Spirit gave you...or better said, the confusion takes away your previous peace remember this admonishment...

1 Cor 14.33a
[SUP]33 [/SUP]for God is not a God of confusion but of peace

Anything the Holy Spirit brings to you that causes his peace to pour over you and that confusion tries to take away from you...is not of God....and is masquerading as an angel of light...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Back up the accusation?

go read your posts,

so so you can't just go do that (what. Suggested)?, thats sad.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

our spirits are perfect in Christ; 100% where they should be

BUT

our flesh is not and neither is our soul

how do we get the right alignment? we renew our minds

we are not perfect in the sense some seem to be trying to say. as in all covenants, we have our part in this one also

we still CHOOSE what we are going to do. we still CHOOSE actually, even what we believe and if you don't think so, well this thread gives testimony that there are more opinions then truths passing through the biosphere of the entire forum

that, is why we must align ourselves with what scripture states. we must AGREE with what God says

that does not mean doing a topical study on your favorite subject or finding verses that seem to agree with your own ideas

that means taking the ENTIRE counsel and understanding it as it speaks of itself. I see this as a lost art really. it's not happening for many many people. in fact, some have placed some nebulous, undocumented thought that pops into their head as being from the Holy Spirit only because they do not understand that even if you are saved, you are by no means off the market as far as the devil is concerned

he comes as an angel of light, which means he disguises himself and fools people. many many people, Christians included.
before this turns into a mini book (congratulations to those who have read this far) study what the entire Bible has to say and if you cannot bring yourself to open anything pre Matthew, you will still gain understanding in the NT

many on this thread have simply left out admonition after admonition on the part we play in this present covenant, even though Abraham and even Moses actually had no part in the commandments, which, were never given for salvation and which do not obtain salvation for anyone...apart from the fact they cannot be kept as God looks on our heart and knows our thoughts

mention Moses' name and there is a knee jerk reaction and the 10 commandments are condemned and get them out of your sight. Moses had the covenant of circumcision

Abraham's faith was accounted to him as righteousness BECAUSE of his obedience. He had FAITH that God would raise Issac from the dead.

now put that together and they describe the covenant we are currently living in. Faith and obedience. Obedience is not works, which is why it is a different word altogether. Now if you confuse that, you will kick out and lash out with cries of 'works salvation'

Consider that the very term WORKS SALVATION is an oxy moron because no is saved by works.

the other determining factor in understanding, is the ability to COMPREHEND the terms faith/obedience/works

far too many are confusing those terms and as a result, are bucking at the slightest hint of any word except faith

if you do that, you demonstrate you actually have poor comprehension for that word also

understand, that it was the FAITH of Jesus which led Him to OBEDIENCE even unto death that obtained YOUR faith

and now I am sure I will need to open my Jesus umbrella again even though we have gorgeous blue skies and slightly cooler weather and the birds are singing

I will add that simply the Bible alone will provide what you need. Start there. Don't align yourself with Calvin...no tulips in your garden...you need the Rose of Sharon

don't go NAR or WOF..not good either (new apostolic reformation / word of faith

you need the Way, the Truth and the Life

I have two very good eyes but I will not respond to a tirade from Calvinists nor will I respond to anyone demanding I purge the works from salvation because I have not inserted any so I can't help you. you need to help yourself to a better understanding and pray God would enlighten the eyes of your heart and give you understanding ACCORDING to His word and not the word of man, including mine. that being said, what I just wrote is actually IN the Bible which is why some here are so awful upset at me from time to time

umbrella up

 

[stonesoffire]

im still going over it myself rose ^_^

Matthew 22 1-14

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


i feel the message is the same as this one in some ways

Jesus first came to His own blood brothers. They rejected. This is the trouble with throwing out Israel and only thinking there is and was the church.

The church is similar to an interruption with Gods dealings with the nation of Israel. We should be so that Israel would be jealous of our relationship. But, if we are religious like they are religious...what is the difference they see?


Absolutely nothing. However, there is the Light shining in truth in others that do deal with the nation. And am glad for Netanyehu.


Also...when we are sealed which is symbolized by the stamp of the Kings authority and will....we are chosen.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

came off ignore to address grave possible danger and foolishness here...



Dear reader, heed and read and learn....

Check out the enlarged and bold red statement above...

If you have the Holy Spirit leading you and the Holy Spirit has revealed something to you that gives you peace and assurance and you know it is was him leading you into that revelation.....and a thief/hireling/robber starts sowing doubt into what the Holy Spirit has shown and spoken to you...do not let it sway you...and remember what Jesus himself said about this...
John 10.4-5

[SUP]4 [/SUP]When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. [SUP]5 [/SUP]A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.

The way we know the Holy Spirit has led us, shown us and spoken something to us...is through the Peace of God...

Isaiah 26.3-
You will keep in perfect peace all who trust in you, all whose thoughts are fixed on you!

If something is said to you that brings total and abject confusion to what he Holy Spirit gave you...or better said, the confusion takes away your previous peace remember this admonishment...

1 Cor 14.33a
[SUP]33 [/SUP]for God is not a God of confusion but of peace

Anything the Holy Spirit brings to you that causes his peace to pour over you and that confusion tries to take away from you...is not of God....and is masquerading as an angel of light...

Lol, something told me to look, that you may be trying something tricky, maybe that was God?

Then explain why why we have so many belief systems, even many people who have the same gospel did God tell them all wrong stuff?

God warned us that Satan comes as an angel of light, he would not warn us if it were not possible,

you do do not want to head Gods warning, that's on you.

 

[loveme1]

go read your posts,

so so you can't just go do that (what. Suggested)?, thats sad.

It is sad that you accuse me of something like that.. you are always trying to send me away from the thread.. and say I tell people to sin no more? You really have yourself fooled.. but your not fooling me..

 

[Meggido]

It's a question, you have freewill. I asked another OSAS person and they couldn't answer it.

this is because we are starting to see that him and some others here are not OSAS/ES at all...

they are free grace believers....

 

[PennEd]

Man. We had a couple of hours of peace and fellowship. People disagreed, but did it in a loving respectful way.
What happened in the past hour?