Not By Works
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I honestly wonder how those who believe others can lose their salvation know they themselves are still saved... I mean if it's so easy to be deceived, how do you know you're not? Under your belief system how do you know you have enough faith and or are believing/doing the right things? Doesn't seem like eternal security to me.
its easy for me to answer this because I trust Him to work out His good will in my life and cause me to walk in good works joyfully.
But this must, required stuff, just sounds like more Law to me. If the just shall live by faith how does that play a part in this belief system?
its easy for me to answer this because I trust Him to work out His good will in my life and cause me to walk in good works joyfully.
But this must, required stuff, just sounds like more Law to me. If the just shall live by faith how does that play a part in this belief system?
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U
UnderGrace
Guest
It is a mystery to me too? 
They make faith/ belief a work. Neither are meritorious. Faith is being persuaded or convinced that what God says is true.
Faith is the opposite of work, since one can only have faith in the finished work of Jesus
through the abandonment of any attempt to justify oneself by works.
They make faith/ belief a work. Neither are meritorious. Faith is being persuaded or convinced that what God says is true.
Faith is the opposite of work, since one can only have faith in the finished work of Jesus
through the abandonment of any attempt to justify oneself by works.
Take it up with Jesus who inspired Paul to use such words...Galatians 1 and 3
P
PHart
Guest
How do we know we are still saved? Because we are still trusting in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sin. You are saved if you are presently believing (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).
We know that we have passed from death to life when we love as God loves (not as the world loves). The things that accompany salvation show us to possess eternal life.
If you are Calvinist OSAS you have no security or surety of your salvation because it teaches that enduring to the end is the sign of genuine faith and that if you stop believing you were never really saved to begin with. So, in other words, you can never know for sure if you're saved until you arrive at the end of your enduring at the resurrection. It is only then that you know if you endured to the end or not showing yourself to have truly believed. And that's supposed to be the doctrine of security and surety? In non-OSAS you are genuinely saved as long as you are genuinely believing and trusting. It's that simple.
Good. As long as you are believing you are saved. But if you are Calvinist OSAS, tomorrow's failure of faith, should it occur, will show you to have not really believed all along. In Calvinism there is always the potential of tomorrow's failure to reveal that you never really believed to begin with, even though you thought you were really believing before you failed in your faith. In that doctrine you can never really know if your faith is genuine or not until it fails somewhere along the line, and you won't know that until the day of the resurrection. And somehow that's supposed to be the doctrine of security? Really? But in non-OSAS you are saved as long as you are believing. Period. End of story. It's that simple.
When did the believing you started on the first day of your salvation, and which continues today, move over to the works that can't justify side of Paul's 'faith vs. works' doctrine?
You are saved as long as you are believing. It's that simple. Believing/ having faith in Jesus blood for the forgiveness of sin is not defined in the Bible as a work of the law that can not justify, yet so many people think that the requirement to continue and not stop the believing they started on the day they got saved is somehow now a damnable work of the works gospel if they have to do that. That's absurd. Faith is contrasted with the works of the law that can not save, not equated with them.
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PHart
Guest
Correct. So why do so many Christians call you a 'worker for' if you say you have to continue in the trusting/ believing you started on the day you got saved as if believing is somehow a work of the damnable works gospel? Where does the Bible call believing a work of the damnable works gospel that can not save?
It is a mystery to me too?
They make faith/ belief a work. Neither are meritorious. Faith is being persuaded or convinced that what God says is true.
Faith is the opposite of work, since one can only have faith in the finished work of Jesus
through the abandonment of any attempt to justify oneself by works.
Hi Undergrace, I am in agreement with your biblical thoughts, but I can not understand why the salvation plus works people are not.
People will go on and on about their works; And all that the Grace plus nothing folks are saying is; Christians are saved "unto good works" (yes we have works), that God has prepared before hand that we should walk in them; but your works won't save you, and they won't keep you saved.
"But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." James4:6
Nobody say's "no works" but what we are saying is; it is Jesus works of righteousness not yours, that will save you and keep you saved. but you say; yes God saved me but now I need to work to keep my salvation. And again I will tell you it is God's sanctifying work in the life of the believer that keeps you saved. "you are saved, unto good works, not by them." A simple concept to understand but proud people will not except - "Faith in Christ plus nothing."
1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: 2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God." Romans5:1,2
What more can anyone say; "saved unto good works, not by them."
God bless
We have to do works of the Spirit or else we are disobedient,and to obey is better than sacrifice.
When we are saved then we have to do what the Spirit wants us to do,or else we are disobedient to God,and against His kingdom,and ways.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
If they say works do not save,and we will do works because we have the Spirit,then how did these people lack works,and Jesus was concerned that their works were not right before God,and told them to repent,or He would go against them.
Jesus said they were fallen,and to repent,so they were saved for they have fallen,and repent meaning that they can still be right with Jesus if they repent,but they were not right with Jesus at the time they lacked works.
To Jesus works are important,and have a bearing on a person's relationship with Him.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Works of the Spirit,being obedient to God keeps us saved,which it is obvious that some can lack,as shown by the 2 Churches.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
When we are saved then we have to do what the Spirit wants us to do,or else we are disobedient to God,and against His kingdom,and ways.
Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
If they say works do not save,and we will do works because we have the Spirit,then how did these people lack works,and Jesus was concerned that their works were not right before God,and told them to repent,or He would go against them.
Jesus said they were fallen,and to repent,so they were saved for they have fallen,and repent meaning that they can still be right with Jesus if they repent,but they were not right with Jesus at the time they lacked works.
To Jesus works are important,and have a bearing on a person's relationship with Him.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Works of the Spirit,being obedient to God keeps us saved,which it is obvious that some can lack,as shown by the 2 Churches.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Rom 15:18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ hath not wrought by me, to make the Gentiles obedient, by word and deed.
2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Galatians 5King James Version (KJV)
5Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Be not entangled would mean mix not the old Old with New because if you partake with the Old Testament you become a debtor to the whole law. If you seek to Justify yourselves with law you reject the Messiah and are not under Grace. Does not teach obedience of the Messiah is wrong... no actually tells you to stand fast in it because it made us free...
6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Why be circumcised it means nothing whether you are circumcised or uncircumcised but what matters is Faith that worketh love. You started off well but who is hindering you that you should not obey the Truth? Who is telling you to be circumcised.. because you need not.. but Faith.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Paul says if I was teaching circumcision why would they persecute me? Because they would not be offended by the New Testament where the Messiah paid with His blood for remission of our sin... which is the offence of the cross.
You have liberty and should walk in the spirit the law is fulfilled in one word: love.. exactly what the Messiah taught. Paul gives the second part of the Great because turning on one and other and devouring is not living.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Be led of the Spirit means you are not under the law... the works of flesh mean you can not inherit the Kingdom of GOD. See the Messiah's Testimony because this is all affirming to Him.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
If you You walk after the Spirit you fulfill the law because the fruit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness and so on as above.
Paul means that the fruit of the Spirit naturally fulfills the law.. you are Keeping the Testimony of the Messiah by walking in the spirit..
Paul is affirming the New Testament throughout in place of the Old.
So stand fast in your liberty that you received through Faith.. Faith worketh love... and love is a verb.
Nothing Paul shares is in place of the Messiah's Testimony.. you must hear and keep that as your foundation. It is written.
But my, my Paul was zealous for people to remain Faithful to the Messiah's Testament... affirming it throughout and only those not built on good foundation would misuse and wrestle with these Faithful writings....
5Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Be not entangled would mean mix not the old Old with New because if you partake with the Old Testament you become a debtor to the whole law. If you seek to Justify yourselves with law you reject the Messiah and are not under Grace. Does not teach obedience of the Messiah is wrong... no actually tells you to stand fast in it because it made us free...
6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Why be circumcised it means nothing whether you are circumcised or uncircumcised but what matters is Faith that worketh love. You started off well but who is hindering you that you should not obey the Truth? Who is telling you to be circumcised.. because you need not.. but Faith.
11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Paul says if I was teaching circumcision why would they persecute me? Because they would not be offended by the New Testament where the Messiah paid with His blood for remission of our sin... which is the offence of the cross.
You have liberty and should walk in the spirit the law is fulfilled in one word: love.. exactly what the Messiah taught. Paul gives the second part of the Great because turning on one and other and devouring is not living.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Be led of the Spirit means you are not under the law... the works of flesh mean you can not inherit the Kingdom of GOD. See the Messiah's Testimony because this is all affirming to Him.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
If you You walk after the Spirit you fulfill the law because the fruit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness and so on as above.
Paul means that the fruit of the Spirit naturally fulfills the law.. you are Keeping the Testimony of the Messiah by walking in the spirit..
Paul is affirming the New Testament throughout in place of the Old.
So stand fast in your liberty that you received through Faith.. Faith worketh love... and love is a verb.
Nothing Paul shares is in place of the Messiah's Testimony.. you must hear and keep that as your foundation. It is written.
But my, my Paul was zealous for people to remain Faithful to the Messiah's Testament... affirming it throughout and only those not built on good foundation would misuse and wrestle with these Faithful writings....
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Here we have the real theological impossibility.
A believer comes to faith and then falls away denying what he once believed.
If this believer is now lost, believers can lose their salvation, if not, denying Christ
is not a bar to salvation and therefore one is a Universalist.
As soon as you introduce morality, judgement and free will or choice, you have to
allow for failure. It is simply a delusion not to see these things go together.
In reality God chose us, and we rely on Him through faith 100%, but we can harden
our hearts and walk away. But why would we? Because we are so broken and hurt
nothing helps, maybe? God promises hope. This is hard and each of us must find
our way through to trust from the heart.
I'm pretty sure someone just called believing a "work" in here earlier today, or was it yesterday? Continuing in the faith is not so much the contention as the need or requirement to do other works. Those who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, can they be lost? That is the other issue. Scripture points to "No." Workers for say "Yes."
My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can
snatch them out of My hand. My Father who has given them to
Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and
the one who comes to Me I will never turn away.
John 6:39
And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that I shall lose none
of all those He has given Me, but raise them up at the last day.
Romans 38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That is not true, because the issue is limited only to those who come to believe in the first place, and so universalism is not an issue here at all.
Pertaining to point b: some say if salvation is lost it cannot be regained. We say if one loses their faith they were probably practicing a works' based religion, and were not saved to begin with.
1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
What if people had not the Holy Spirit Baptism... yet to recieve it.. what beliefs systems would they be open to believe? Many..
for they would wrestle with scripture like those of past times.. their hearts were far from God because they held to doctrines of men that accumulate based on verses and interpretation.
it is my hope that many will obey the Truth and truly believe the Testament of the Messiah. Not explain it away with a verse or idea... His words give eternal life.
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.
Luke 11
9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
if you have not received it then ask....
for they would wrestle with scripture like those of past times.. their hearts were far from God because they held to doctrines of men that accumulate based on verses and interpretation.
it is my hope that many will obey the Truth and truly believe the Testament of the Messiah. Not explain it away with a verse or idea... His words give eternal life.
Acts 19
1And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7And all the men were about twelve.
Luke 11
9And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
if you have not received it then ask....
Here it is: repenting and confessing is called a work here,
not belief, though truly it amounts to the same thing.
It appears the person means doing something like confess and Repent being an action of the person.... meaning work.
2 Timothy 3
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. 6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, 7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 9But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was
My friend, you have to see the point. If all are called and faith does not matter that is universalism.
Once your put conditions on the believer, you are into choice and rules.
It is obvious you do not understand this point, so it cannot be discussed which is also shown by your
dismissive attitude. If you can be honest there is a point to discussion, if not, God bless you.