Not By Works

[PHart]

...those in Matthew 7:23 were never converted, those who depart from us were never converted.

We get a little more insight into who it is specifically that Christ will turn away saying, "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23 NASB) here:

24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ (Luke 13:24-27 NASB)

​

Just because he never knew this particular group of people who ate and drank with him in his presence during his earthly ministry doesn't mean categorically and without exception all that Jesus will turn away at the resurrection never knew him. To get that out of Matthew 7:23 is to unrightly divide it away from the Luke 13:24-27 passage above.

Surely there will many from all through the centuries whom Christ will turn away at the resurrection and say, "I never knew you", but we can not use Matthew 7:23 all by itself isolated from Luke 13:24-27 to insist that every one of them without exception were never saved to begin with. He was talking about a very specific group of people who really didn't ever know him. He was not broad stroking all those who will be turned away at the resurrection as having never known him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I can see that willybob has bought into the same faulty logic as Roman Catholics and Campbellites in regards to works. They try to dissect good works from the moral aspect of the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.

Here is a statement from a Campbellite that I was in a discussion with - "It is works of obedience that help to save us, not works of the law or works of merit."

I did not realize that Christ needed our help. Of course, that statement is an oxymoron because works of obedience cannot be dissected from the moral aspect of the law and if we were saved by works of obedience, that would be works of merit.

Works of the law covers works in general (Matthew 22:37-40), which is why Paul not only said that we are not saved by works/works of the law, but he also said not saved by "works of righteousness which we have done" (Titus 3:5) and he also said that God saved us and called us with a holy calling, "not according to our works" (2 Timothy 1:9). So the saved by "these" works and just not "those" works argument is bogus.

They have all gone gone the way of Cain, and expect God to recieve the fruit of their labor (work) as payment for sin, and get angry at Abel, because he trusted in the unspotted lamb for his forgiveness.

 

[preacher4truth]

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.


without working out our salvation we receive grace to no means, having no effect, such as the seed sown among thorns...


[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
[/TD]
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[TR]
[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]6 By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, (His power working in you) by love unfeigned,
[/TD]
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[TD="class: versetable, width: 100%"]7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, (grace) by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
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[/TABLE]

again: man is a worker together with God to obtain a relationship of love that CANNOT be obtained by any other means possible....Notwithstanding, only by the free gift of forgiveness of PAST sins can one be reconciled back to God's favour through the work of repentance....

Taking Scripture out of context still?

We cannot work out salvation unless we already possess salvation. Your statement that if we don't do this we won't receive grace is utter nonsense. The person doing this has already received grace, which is why they are doing it in the first place. Your cart is perpetually before the horse.

The grace referred to in 2 Corinthians 6:1 is not the grace of regeneration. Context?

that ye receive not the grace of God in vain: by "the grace of God", is not meant the grace of God in regeneration, and effectual calling, which can never be received in vain; for the grace of God never fails of producing a thorough work of conversion; nor is it ever lost, but is strictly connected with eternal, glory: but by it is meant either the doctrine of grace, the Gospel of Christ, so called, because it is a declaration of the love and grace of God to sinners, ascribes salvation in part, and in whole, to the free grace of God, and is a means of implanting and increasing grace in the hearts of men. Now this may be received in vain by ministers and people, when it is but notionally received, or received in word only: when it is abused and perverted to vile purposes, and when men drop, deny it, and fall off from it; or else by the grace of God may be designed gifts of grace, qualifying for ministerial service;

 

[willybob]

a work is a work is a work

a work is something you do which takes energy, which is done to accomplish a set goal, which in the end earns a wage, or a reward.

Any one who says we must work to gain, maintain or prevent from losing salvation, no matter how the term the word "work" is defined, is preaching a works based salvation and rejects grace.

again: You have no clue of the biblical definition of grace. You've made it into a license to sin as Jude said you would...As you continue to argue in favour of sin, the nakedness of your beliefs can be clearly seen by those looking on with discerning eyes.......No matter what you say, without holiness no one will see the Lord..this includes you....

 

[Grace777x70]

I think they needed to say Judas was saved at one time so they could claim it is possible to lose salvation. Jesus called Judas the son of perdition. The root of that word ( ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ , perdition, Strong's 684. apóleia) is the same as word 622, perish (ἀπόλλυμι) which means, utter destruction, the fate promised to non believers in the second death.

I agree.

It is the same principle as when some try to say that King Saul in the Old Testament was saved as in a believer in Christ is saved. They try to make Saul look like the Holy Spirit left him and so He will leave you too.

It's religious nonsense based on fear and inaccurate view of the Father and not understanding the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place.

It's as if the cross and resurrection never occurred and that the blood of Jesus was never spilled to redeem us believers and obtain eternal redemption. Heb. 9:12

It's as if Jesus is a liar when He said "The Holy Spirit will be in you forever." John 14:16 and that He said He will be with us until the end and no one can pluck us out of this hand.

No one means - no one! Not even ourselves through sick thinking and false teaching that fosters dis-trust in our Father and Lord.

It's as if there is no New Covenant build on the Lord Jesus Christ's work.

I could go on more about this but I think we can clearly see the fallacy of these thoughts.

Warning scriptures are to be heeded because we can get our faith ship-wrecked in this life from various things.

The absolute necessity to rely on the grace of Christ for life and living in this world is paramount to experiencing the inheritance of the kingdom of God that is within us now. Acts 20:32

Sin with it's deceitfulness will affect us all - from living a homosexual lifestyle to those that slander others in the body of Christ and the causing of strife and division. These are in the same lists together. They are doing the same thing - works of the flesh.

Our faith can be ship-wrecked through false teaching like this - lose your salvation nonsense that denies the gospel and the work of Christ. It promotes fear and dis-trust of our Lord and loving Father and drives some away from the Lord.

But the Lord is changing all of that and bringing to light the revelation of His gospel of the grace of God in Christ.

This is giving Christians the proper nutrients to grow up in Him in a safe environment. Let's have these ones coming back to rely on Him to be met at the door by our loving Father and not the condemning judgmental older brother who didn't know the heart of the Father. This is why some left in the first place.

 

[preacher4truth]

again: You have no clue of the biblical definition of grace. You've made it into a license to sin as Jude said you would...As you continue to argue in favour of sin, the nakedness of your beliefs can be clearly seen by those looking on with discerning eyes.......No matter what you say, without holiness no one will see the Lord..this includes you....

Why is it that you, while claiming that others love sin, and want to sin, continually lie about others with said unsubstantiated claims?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We get a little more insight into who it is specifically that Christ will turn away saying, "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23 NASB) here:

24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ (Luke 13:24-27 NASB)

​

Just because he never knew this particular group of people who ate and drank with him in his presence during his earthly ministry doesn't mean categorically and without exception all that Jesus will turn away at the resurrection never knew him. To get that out of Matthew 7:23 is to unrightly divide it away from the Luke 13:24-27 passage above.

Surely there will many from all through the centuries whom Christ will turn away at the resurrection and say, "I never knew you", but we can not use Matthew 7:23 all by itself isolated from Luke 13:24-27 to insist that every one of them without exception were never saved to begin with. He was talking about a very specific group of people who really didn't ever know him. He was not broad stroking all those who will be turned away at the resurrection as having never known him.

lol

they still lives in sin, they still were evil doers, are Gods children evil doers?

he never knew them period, because they never were adopted into his family and had a relationship with him

They were religious people who lthought they were doing the work of a god, but rejected grace. walking with Jesus, while he was on earth, or walking with his children and doing works will not bring you into a relationship with God,

Obeying the gospel and entrusting your eternity to HIM will,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

again: You have no clue of the biblical definition of grace. You've made it into a license to sin as Jude said you would...As you continue to argue in favour of sin, the nakedness of your beliefs can be clearly seen by those looking on with discerning eyes.......No matter what you say, without holiness no one will see the Lord..this includes you....

No no my friend, it is you who
1, have no deal what I believe, because I would never say what you just said I would
2, have no idea what grace means, your trying to earn it, and your only justification is to say it is works of faith not works of law, that does not work, you can only earn grace by the work of Christ on the cross, in other words you can't earn it at all.

If you could earn grace, you would not need grace, t would be called a reward or wage or something you earned, not called a gift which was freely given

 

[PHart]

24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ (Luke 13:24-27 NASB)
​

Hmmm...."strive to enter through the narrow door".

How do we strive to enter in without that being a works gospel (which it surely isn't)? Kind of reminds me of Peter's "make every effort":

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.​

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[SUP]a[/SUP] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV)

​

So many here have been insisting that this is a works gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is it that you, while claiming that others love sin, and want to sin, continually lie about others with said unsubstantiated claims?

Sadly, people who think they must earn it can not see their sin, because they hide it, and judge others so they can Not see it.

 

[mailmandan]

We get a little more insight into who it is specifically that Christ will turn away saying, "I never knew you" (Matthew 7:23 NASB) here:

24“Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25“Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, ‘Lord, open up to us!’ then He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26“Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets’; 27and He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.’ (Luke 13:24-27 NASB)​

Why didn't you bold this part of verse 25 above? Now that lines up perfectly with Matthew 7:22-23. Jesus NEVER knew them.​

 

[PHart]

Why didn't you bold this part of verse 25 above? Now that lines up perfectly with Matthew 7:22-23. Jesus NEVER knew them.​

Reread my post carefully and slowly. I'm not saying he didn't 'never know them'. My point is, Luke 13:24-27 shows us that Jesus was talking about a specific group of people in Matthew 23:7 who never knew him. But the church uses Matthew 23:7 to claim that categorically and without exception that every single person who gets turned away at the resurrection never knew him to begin with. You can only come to that conclusion if you unrightly divide Matthew 7:23 from Luke 13:24-27.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hmmm...."strive to enter through the narrow door".

How do we strive to enter in without that being a works gospel (which it surely isn't)? Kind of reminds me of Peter's "make every effort":

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.​

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[SUP]a[/SUP] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV)

​

So many have been insisting that this is a works gospel.

jesus said in john 6 do not work for food which perishes but for food which endures to eternal life,,which he came to give us, this food bing his flesh and blood,

he meant work hard to make sure you enter the right way, and not fall for the wrong way,

when the jews asked what work they must do, Jesus response was it is the WORK OF GOD that they believe, the way to eternal life was faith, not through work, but we must chew the word thoroughly to make sure we understand them

99 % of the worlds religions teach a gospel based on works, works based Christianity would fall into this category, that is the wide gate, and many enter in that way, because they did. It work hard to make sure it was the right way,

that leaves 1 % who reject works based theology and entrust themselves to a faith based theology, here is the narrow gate, they worked hard to fight through the flesh the lies of Satan and their own pride and found the narrow way,

and what does God says FEW enter that way.

 

[Stephen63]

No, that's not what you said. Those who have faith are the truly converted only, and none of them "stop believing" so your lame admonition is asinine. Those who have believed in vain, and don't hold their profession were never saved to begin with. Seems you enjoy the latter group immensely.

You're scared, out on a limb, because nothing in church history agrees with you. Go fetch proof from church history that supports your latter day heresy of loss of salvation.

You've yet to offer proof and thus far only offer misunderstood texts as "proof" of which a quote from any church authority would undo.

Hey, maybe you can quote John Gill, like Stephen63 for proof?

At least I quote commentaries instead of using eisegesis.

 

[PHart]

lol

they still lives in sin, they still were evil doers, are Gods children evil doers?

he never knew them period, because they never were adopted into his family and had a relationship with him

They were religious people who lthought they were doing the work of a god, but rejected grace. walking with Jesus, while he was on earth, or walking with his children and doing works will not bring you into a relationship with God,

Obeying the gospel and entrusting your eternity to HIM will,

You, too, go back and reread my post carefully and slowly so that you can see the point that I was making. I was not somehow asserting that this specific group of people whom Jesus will say he never knew were known by him. I'm pointing out that he was talking about a very specific group of people who never knew him, not broad stroking all people whom he will turn away as having never ever known him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Reread my post carefully and slowly. I'm not saying he didn't 'never know them'. My point is, Luke 13:24-27 shows us that Jesus was talking about a specific group of people in Matthew 23:7 who never knew him. But the church uses Matthew 23:7 to claim that categorically and without exception that every single person who gets turned away at the resurrection never knew him to begin with. You can only come to that conclusion if you unrightly divide Matthew 7:23 from Luke 13:24-27.

They still were evil doers, no matter what group they were,

so you still have issues,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You, too, go back and reread my post carefully and slowly so that you can see the point that I was making. I was not somehow asserting that this specific group of people whom Jesus will say he never knew were known by him.

I read your point, and I showed why it did not help your reasoning,

you have evil evil doers who continue used to be evil doers be saved, then lost that salvation. or f you do not believe that, you agree with us, they were never saved to begin with

 

[mailmandan]

Hmmm...."strive to enter through the narrow door".

How do we strive to enter in without that being a works gospel (which it surely isn't)?

"Strive" to enter through the narrow gate signifies a great struggle against conflict. Christ was not suggesting that anyone could merit heaven by striving or working hard enough to earn it. No matter how rigorously people labor, sinners could never save themselves by works. Entering through the narrow gate is nonetheless difficult because of it's cost in terms of human pride of trusting in works for salvation and because of the sinner's natural love for sin which prevents them from choosing to repent and believe the gospel. It's a struggle and an endeavor for sinner's to give up their willful, habitual, sinful lifestyles and the self righteous to let go of their works and take hold of Christ through FAITH.

Kind of reminds me of Peter's "make every effort":

"5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.​

10Therefore, my brothers and sisters,[SUP]a[/SUP] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11 NIV)

​

So many here have been insisting that this is a works gospel.

If not interpreted properly, it can be a works gospel.

By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These fruits will confirm it. Make sure you have been called and elected - bébaios (an adjective, derived from bainō, "to walk where it is solid") – properly, solid (sure) enough to walk on; hence, firm, unshakable; (figuratively) absolutely dependable, giving guaranteed support (security, surety). To practice these qualities gives evidence of salvation, though they are not the basis (or cause) of salvation. They are the effect. Cause of being in Christ (FAITH) effect of being in Christ (FRUIT).

For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ (vs. 8). For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins (vs. 9).

What is the object of the forgetting? Is this forgetting temporary because this believer had fallen into error or does this lack of fruit exist because this person’s "cleansing" was merely an external reformation that did not come from a truly changed heart?

The genuineness of their profession will be demonstrated as they express these virtues. These fruits confirm their divine source. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. Those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin (1 John 3:10). Proverbs 24:16, we read - For a righteous man may fall seven times and rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity.

 

[PHart]

They still were evil doers, no matter what group they were,

so you still have issues,

Once again, address the point I was making. You can see Jesus was talking about a particular group of people who never knew him. He is not saying every single person whom he will turn away at the resurrection never knew him.

 

[mailmandan]

No matter what you say, without holiness no one will see the Lord..this includes you....

Hebrews 12:14 (NASB) - Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. Those who are sanctified have been set apart/made holy.