Not By Works

[Rosemaryx]

No, this is not true. Many say almost every day works keep us saved. That is no different than saying works save us,

Hi EG...You say my post is not true, yet my leading is being led by the Holy Spirit, He has brought me this far on my journey...What i want to ask is, God expects us to good good deeds, deeds means work, if we do not do what God expects us to do, are we not fallen short...Did you read all my post...Ii say this because you only replied to a line from it, what about the rest of it, i am looking for understanding from my brothers and sisters...xox...Thank you for replying...xox...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi Magenta...But has anyone claimed works before Salvation...Do we not all believe that we are commanded to work...It`s a command to obey, what happens to those who once except Jesus in their life, are they to remain still...Yes we work to Gods calling, some ignore the calling daily because they choice to sit in idleness, is this where hay and straw is mentioned, i am truly asking because i seek to learn, not to post at anyone but myself...xox...

This one is a little bit tricky Rosemary.
You'll have to give me the fuller example of who you have met, who has met God and received the Spirit, and yet sit around in idleness.

But keep in mind that what one person considered idleness, Jesus called "the better thing." (Mary and Martha).

 

[Rosemaryx]

like ive told you being saved is not the same as the completed work in christ.. two diffrent cirumstances.. we are a work in progress and that will continue until we die. blessings to you

Hi Jim...I have to agree with you as the Lord is leading me on my path...Other wise why are we told we must practice...xox...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Magenta...But has anyone claimed works before Salvation...Do we not all believe that we are commanded to work...It`s a command to obey, what happens to those who once except Jesus in their life, are they to remain still...Yes we work to Gods calling, some ignore the calling daily because they choice to sit in idleness, is this where hay and straw is mentioned, i am truly asking because i seek to learn, not to post at anyone but myself...xox...

it does does not matter if they say before or after, if they declair works are required. They state in reality, a person is not really saved until they come to judgment day, and their saved state at that Time depends on their works.

Paul spok of this in galations, when he called hem out for believing they were originally saved by the spirit (Faith) then must perfect, or complete that salvation by the flesh (works)

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This one is a little bit tricky Rosemary.
You'll have to give me the fuller example of who you have met, who has met God and received the Spirit, and yet sit around in idleness.

But keep in mind that what one person considered idleness, Jesus called "the better thing." (Mary and Martha).

Sorry, forgot to explain the tricky part! If you will accept it, we begin with more bustle but later receive from Him in a more passive manner. This has been my experience and I've seen it in others too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG...You say my post is not true, yet my leading is being led by the Holy Spirit, He has brought me this far on my journey...What i want to ask is, God expects us to good good deeds, deeds means work, if we do not do what God expects us to do, are we not fallen short...Did you read all my post...Ii say this because you only replied to a line from it, what about the rest of it, i am looking for understanding from my brothers and sisters...xox...Thank you for replying...xox...

Hey rosemary,

I agree, those who are saved will do works, out of appreciation, gratitude, thanksgiving and love for what God has done for them (he gave them eternal life, knowing they deserve eternal death)

the only problem I had with you post is you said no one here preaches our salvation is maintained by works, which was not true, one member made it clear, she believ salvation was maintain d by works, and anyone who disagreed with her hand the word work.

Other members pretty much say the same about works.

 

[Limey410v2]

Is there a difference between the lost and unbelieving?

Jesus did not come to seek and to save the unbelieving...he came to seek and to save those who were lost....

I believe the lost are our prodigals in the body today, who have left church due to being inflicted by commendation, judgement, hate, hurt/offense and a myriad of issues...I also believe the lost are who have fallen to both legalistic and lascivious false teachings....and have not realized the power of truth and grace....

I believe the unbelieving are just that...unbelieving and they and their condition is described in Romans 1. I love those people and let the Holy Spirit work on them....

Good question, followed by good points. You have some examples in scripture of this: Luke 15

Are these examples applicable to believer that falls away? Possibly, I think that could apply. But Jesus is speaking of those that are already in the fold, and bringing them back into the fold.

So why would Jesus only concern Himself with only the saved > lost? Because we are ALL not saved at some point.

What I understand from what you are saying is Jesus came to save then look for those that are lost? that doesn't make much sense when we are all born into sin, lost, without the Holy Spirit.

Those that do not believe, are surely lost.

I could be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. I am tired

 

[Magenta]

This does not negate anything I posted....and a given truth.

Did Jesus chase after the young rich ruler, his hometown or the Pharisee's and Sadducee's <<<<<These were the unbelieving....

The ones that Jesus preached, taught, healed, delivered and manifested himself to were the lost...this would include the original 82 and many others....

We need to be less spiritual and more real....It may be God's desire and will for all to come into repentance, but that does not translate to mean, all will take the free gift....or that Jesus ministered to everyone, because in reality he did not...and the closer he got to the cross, the more the multitudes stopped listening....

It was not JESUS....it was BARABBAS.....they were shouting.......

Has anyone here ever said that ALL will come to repentance? I have not seen it if they did, so I am not sure why you say that. Jesus did not chase after anybody. He walked and taught and preached continually for what is believed to be approximately three years, though (not counting His short stint as a teen), to any and all who would listen, including the Pharisees and Sadducee, whom He engaged often. Nor does listening automatically imply accepting. He was rejected and despised and held in low esteem by quite a few, and still is, for the natural man does not accept the Spiritual things of God, for they consider the things of God foolishness.

 

[TruthTalk]

EXCUSE ME TOO.. HAHA........ GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED ,,,, no offence to you but because God knows you ,,,,,,does not give you the right to say you are the completed works in christ...

No Christian is complete until we stand before Jesus. My point is we do not need to live in fear of fire from God our Savior.

"The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. Romans 8:14,15.

Moses was the first adopted child in the bible; "Take this child away and nurse him for me and I will give you your wages." So the woman took the child and nursed him and the child grew and she brought him to Pharaoh's daughter and he became her son. And she named him Moses and said, "Because I drew him out of water." Exodus2:10

I never said I was; the completed works in Christ, those are your false words. Again, your reasoning is invalid; the word you say I said, I never said; its a lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good question, followed by good points. You have some examples in scripture of this: Luke 15

Are these examples applicable to believer that falls away? Possibly, I think that could apply. But Jesus is speaking of those that are already in the fold, and bringing them back into the fold.

So why would Jesus only concern Himself with only the saved > lost? Because we are ALL not saved at some point.

What I understand from what you are saying is Jesus came to save then look for those that are lost? that doesn't make much sense when we are all born into sin, lost, without the Holy Spirit.

Those that do not believe, are surely lost.

I could be misunderstanding what you are trying to say. I am tired

happens to all of us,, the tired misunderstanding bit..lol

 

[Magenta]

Hi Magenta...But has anyone claimed works before Salvation...Do we not all believe that we are commanded to work...It`s a command to obey, what happens to those who once except Jesus in their life, are they to remain still...Yes we work to Gods calling, some ignore the calling daily because they choice to sit in idleness, is this where hay and straw is mentioned, i am truly asking because i seek to learn, not to post at anyone but myself...xox...

Rosemary, the issue is what one does after they are saved. Some say works are required to maintain the status of being saved. Others say works naturally flow from the state of being saved, though the works themselves are not what save, but are the fruit of salvation, which are the good works prepared in advance for us to do. For without faith (previous to being saved/justified) it is impossible to please God; as they say, works are filthy rags apart from faith.

 

[UnderGrace]

So true, Salvation if properly understood as a singular event of belief in the finished work of the cross, confirms that we cannot finish in the flesh what has been accomplished by the Spirit

Faith is not a work
Salvation is a gift (singular event)

We are not called to mimic the life of Christ, we are called to be in Him and then we will do the works He would have us do

it does does not matter if they say before or after, if they declair works are required. They state in reality, a person is not really saved until they come to judgment day, and their saved state at that Time depends on their works.

Paul spok of this in galations, when he called hem out for believing they were originally saved by the spirit (Faith) then must perfect, or complete that salvation by the flesh (works)

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen, Jesus was constrained by the temporal the Holy Spirit is not.

Has anyone here ever said that ALL will come to repentance? I have not seen it if they did, so I am not sure why you say that. Jesus did not chase after anybody. He walked and taught and preached continually for what is believed to be approximately three years, though (not counting His short stint as a teen), to any and all who would listen, including the Pharisees and Sadducee, whom He engaged often. Nor does listening automatically imply accepting. He was rejected and despised and held in low esteem by quite a few, and still is, for the natural man does not accept the Spiritual things of God, for they consider the things of God foolishness.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

This one is a little bit tricky Rosemary.
You'll have to give me the fuller example of who you have met, who has met God and received the Spirit, and yet sit around in idleness.

But keep in mind that what one person considered idleness, Jesus called "the better thing." (Mary and Martha).

Which has led me into further thought...
Jesus did not tell Martha she was doing a bad thing by preparing food for all the guests of the house (a good work).
He simply said that Mary had chosen the better.

I love Martha so much! She began to do a good work by serving her brothers and sisters. I think she got a little bit sideways though by expecting everyone or anyone else to follow her example. It was at that point that it seems to me she began to stop serving out of love and joy, wanting to take that burden on herself to feed her brothers, and began to judge another for not doing what she was doing. And I love her because she is JUST LIKE ME.

 

[Rosemaryx]

This one is a little bit tricky Rosemary.
You'll have to give me the fuller example of who you have met, who has met God and received the Spirit, and yet sit around in idleness.

But keep in mind that what one person considered idleness, Jesus called "the better thing." (Mary and Martha).

Hi SBG...I mean sloth, lazy, one who looks from their telescope to view ...People can come to Jesus through the calling from God and be satisfied in their heart that they are saved...But once we except Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, there are works to be done, we must pick a part each fruit of the Spirit and check ourselves in our Faith, we must abide as Jesus said...All the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 we must make sure we are abiding, i don`t mean MUST as if the Lord excepts our works through our doing, but as a command from the Lord...All these fruits we must look at each one seperetly ( Please excuse my spelling ) and see if we are walking in them, Do you not think think this is hard to walk in them, it`s a practice we must do, we have to go against everything we believe and live in the Holy Spirit, it`s not easy, hence the broad and narrow path...xox...I hope i have explained my post, i am still learning, sorry i showed only one Scripture, my Bible is closed and it`s night time here...xox...

 

[Limey410v2]

EXCUSE ME TOO.. HAHA........ GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED ,,,, no offence to you but because God knows you ,,,,,,does not give you the right to say you are the completed works in christ...

But it does!! He is our inheritance.

What would differentiate us from the world, except for that!

We are viewed by God as without blemish, washed clean. By Him. All Glory to Him for that.

Ephesians 5:27 "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."

I proclaim that we are Gods masterpiece!!

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are Gods masterpiece. He created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago"

 

[preacher4truth]

But it does!! He is our inheritance.

What would differentiate us from the world, except for that!

We are viewed by God as without blemish, washed clean. By Him. All Glory to Him for that.

Ephesians 5:27 "so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."

I proclaim that we are Gods masterpiece!!

Ephesians 2:10 "For we are Gods masterpiece. He created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago"

And this pesky verse, that flies in the face of the false doctrine that none possess this:

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. - 1 John 5:13

Of course, this is only true to believers, not to those who are working themselves into the kingdom, not trusting the Word of God or testimony of the Holy Spirit above. This is written to all His, to all who have "passed from death to life" (John 5:24) who truly belong to Him, who "have heard His Word, and believe Him."

 

[BillG]

Can I ask you a question without you being offended brother?

Lets say this group believe we are saved by grace alone, that those who have true faith are saved, and they will do works, because they are saved.

The other group says salvation is of works, or at the least, maintained by works (Insinuating in fact that in the end, salvation is of works)

They both have different gospels. Yet paul says if anyone teach any gospel which is different in any aspect. (even if an angel of heaven did this) they are to be accursed.

how can both people be headed to heaven, But defult only one would make it, Would it not be prudent to not
1. Make sure we have the right gospel
2. Warn others that they need to find the right gospel
3. At the most. Not enable a person by saying they are ok, they are going to heaven too (which causes scriptural issues.)

by the word. One of us is wrong, By default, when they call me a greasy grace, they are declaring I am headed to hell (because if they are right, by fact, I am wrong) and vice versa, If I am declaring them to be preaching salvation by works, then by default, I am stating Scripture says they are not saved.

so the argument alone says one group or the other are headed to hell. unless (in the view of grace alone) a person was already saved and got run down by legalism.

About all we can do then is agree to disagree, personally, But we will still be speaking the truth about what we believe, which will offend and by defult come across as condemning the other.

so where are we left if all these things are true?

EG my brother ask away I won't be offended.

I hear what you are saying. I would say that the majority on here will agree salvation is by faith alone.
The pressing question of course is the the reason for this thread and how this works out.
Truth is one side is right the other is wrong.

Maybe I have not understood what Paul is saying about works being burned.

If memory serves me in the early Church Paul was sent to Antioch to the Gentiles with conditions attached.
Then we find Paul admonishing Peter.

Yet they resolved the issue even though Peter states "Some of the stuff Paul is saying is hard to grasp but I do know it is from God but what I also know is that using it

2 Peter 3:15-16
15 And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him—16 speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction.

If anyone uses grace as an excuse to do what they want regardless then it is wrong, Paul addressed that.

As I said to me salvation is my faith alone and not by works, but if our works on what we build upon are it will be burned up but we are still saved.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Hey rosemary,

I agree, those who are saved will do works, out of appreciation, gratitude, thanksgiving and love for what God has done for them (he gave them eternal life, knowing they deserve eternal death)

the only problem I had with you post is you said no one here preaches our salvation is maintained by works, which was not true, one member made it clear, she believ salvation was maintain d by works, and anyone who disagreed with her hand the word work.

Other members pretty much say the same about works.

Hi again EG...Yes i agree...Out of love, appreciation for the blood dripped over us in Christ Jesus we do His deeds...But my question is, what happens to those who do not work or do the deeds of our Lord, what happens to those who believe they are saved but move no further from the cross, Jesus died for us but He is risen, are some people not stuck on the cross, He is no longer there, hence the movement of the Acts, Romans etc...Is this where hay and straw will be burnt, i guess i am asking, is it healthy to be stuck at the cross and not to obey orders after, i am truly asking this to learn, not as a trick, for God forbid those who mock...xox...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Hi SBG...I mean sloth, lazy, one who looks from their telescope to view ...People can come to Jesus through the calling from God and be satisfied in their heart that they are saved...But once we except Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, there are works to be done, we must pick a part each fruit of the Spirit and check ourselves in our Faith, we must abide as Jesus said...All the fruit of the Spirit in Galatians 5:22-23 we must make sure we are abiding, i don`t mean MUST as if the Lord excepts our works through our doing, but as a command from the Lord...All these fruits we must look at each one seperetly ( Please excuse my spelling ) and see if we are walking in them, Do you not think think this is hard to walk in them, it`s a practice we must do, we have to go against everything we believe and live in the Holy Spirit, it`s not easy, hence the broad and narrow path...xox...I hope i have explained my post, i am still learning, sorry i showed only one Scripture, my Bible is closed and it`s night time here...xox...

Well...as I said, it begins with more bustle and tends toward more passive receiving, but I don't know if you can understand that yet...

In a sense, I pick it all apart every DAY, Rosemary! I see my lack of love toward someone and see how snappish and impatient I am with them, and I find myself praying, for the umpteenth time, more love is needed in me Lord! But then, isn't it good to see my lack and pray for what I need? If I didn't see my poverty of spirit, I would just say: I'm rich and in need of nothing. Men don't beg for what they need if they think they don't need anything.

I think you're doing well, Rosemary. I just think you don't fully understand that we would all be sluggards if not for HIM working in us. It's like...if your examinations of where you are lacking and where you are nothing like your Lord lead to you asking out of your weakness and poverty for His strength,love, etc., that's always so good! But, if you begin to commend yourself that your own hard work has got you to this, you would be wrong. If it's a good thing, it most certainly has not come from you but from Him in you, finishing what He started.

Do you have anything good in you? Then it came from Him to you, so you can't boast. (Does the nail boast that it did the hammering or put itself where it is by it's own hard work?)