Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

I do agree some some reference back to the Greek can be very helpful. The English is indeed lacking in substance sometimes.

when someone showed me the word used for "poor" in the sermon on the mount, It gave new meaning and a far deeper understanding. It also made the tax collector example come alive, and showed exactly what Jesus meant.

The pharisee had not become bankrupt. he thought he was worthy

They tax collector considered himself so bankrupt. he could not even look to heaven, But pleaded for Gods mercy.

 

[Grace777x70]

The word "sanctified" means "set apart".

All people in the world have been "sanctified" as in "set apart" for the gospel. That is what Hebrews 10:29 means.

Hebrews 10:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Behold the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.


Gold in the Old Covenant was "sanctified" - set apart for use in the temple as well as the priest garments.

If these Jewish people sin wilfully by rejecting Christ's sacrifice for sins they are insulting the Spirit of grace and counting the blood as a common thing by which he has been sanctified ( set apart).


Jesus blood is what cleanses us and the Lamb of God has taken away the sin of the world but people must believe and receive this truth.

So, all people are "sanctified" ( set apart ) for receiving the gospel message of Christ's work on the cross.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.


Here is another example of the use of "sanctified as in the setting apart for something."

Unbelievers that are spouses are "sanctified" ( set apart from others ) by the believing spouse.

1 Corinthians 7:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.

 

[TMS]

Back and forwards over the same ground.
We should all believe it is faith alone that saves us.
And works are just a result.
Simple. they can't be seperated because true faith results in Godly works. SIMPLE
Works are not bad or wrong or a way to be saved if you believe Jesus has already saved you.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

No, that would be eternal death

Well, that's the knot in my mind over this, isn't it?
If you are existing forever, you are living forever, which is to have eternal life.

My other knot is that I can't see in my reading where man is born with eternal life in him, or a part that lives forever.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

im sorry :/

maybe i will too...

I doubt it, At least not yet, They probably believe you actually believe those things,

they have it set in their hearts I do not believe any of them.

 

[FranC]

what is funny is if i say the same thing, which I would because I believe every word) I woulld be judged..loll

NNM says what he believes.
Nothing wrong in disagreeing.

YOU have told me I'm going to hell,
You cannot accept simple dialogue because of your hard heart.

God will forgive me for judging, but NNM is indwelt with the Holy Spirit no matter what he believed.
You, otoh, are lacking this quality.

 

[Stephen63]

The word dead translated from the Greek in context James 2:17, 20) means inoperative

Universally, destitute of force or power, inactive, inoperative: τῇ ἁμαρτία, unaffected by the desire to sin (cf. Winers Grammar, 210 (199); Buttmann, § 133, 12), Romans 6:11; of things: ἁμαρτία, Romans 7:8; πίστις, James 2:17, 20 (R G), 26; ἔργα, powerless and fruitless (see ἔργον, 3, p. 248b bottom), Hebrews 6:1; Hebrews 9:14. (Cf. θνητός, at the end)

A faith that does not have works is ineffective because it does not bear witness to others which is the whole purpose of James

The just shall live by faith.

Living by a dead faith..... that just doesn't sound right, does it?

I believe the readers know we can't live by a dead faith.

Since living faith is required for our salvation, I believe they can see the end result of that.

 

[Grace777x70]

If we don't look at the book of Hebrews in the light of who is the author talking to - then we can get into a mess and distort the gospel of the grace of God.

The book of Hebrews addresses Israel in the transitional generation of both Jewish believers and Jewish unbelievers alike before the temple was destroyed in 70 AD.

That is why the author spends so much time talking about Jewish "things" from the law and comparing them to Christ Himself and all that He has done. A Gentile knows nothing of the law of Moses and this book was not directly addressed to them.

Audience relevance is paramount in determining the interpretation of a passage.

Reject the one time sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ which is willfully sinning talked about in Hebrews and there remains no more sacrifice for sins. Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

 

[Stephen63]

I've spoken truly of you -- you boast of self perpetually. You've shared the testimony of Self. That you think your heart is a wonder to behold is telltale, you've claimed this, don't deny it. Self. Self. Self.

Others can attest to the fact that what has been stated here concerning you is factual.

I challenge you to speak more of Christ than of yourself and of always implying good concerning yourself. A true encounter with Christ will definitely give you a completely different portrait of self than that which you hold at this point in time.

Perhaps you ought to take a big swig of your own medicine, because most of what you've been doing is talking about other people.

 

[loveme1]

Your not seeing what I am saying.

Yet your judging me, why is that?

one more question, If you re not boasting, they why do you declare your works will earn you eternal llife?

Is that not boasting?

Do do I declare my works will earn eternal life.. or do I believe the Messiah who states this? Think before you answer and refer to Greek for substance if needed in place of the Holy Spirit teaching you.

 

[Stephen63]

Fact: Rarely, if ever, do you glory in what Christ has wrought.

Well, it's a fact now because you said it?

Are you & Dcon brothers?

You're sounding more like him all the time.

 

[Grace777x70]

As far as grace goes which is only found in Christ's work and Person. You can't have Christ without grace and truth. Grace is NOT a doctrine - you can't have a relationship with a doctrine - grace is personified in Christ Himself.

Trying to separate grace from Christ is like trying to separate the "wet from water".

I wonder if this "Christian" thing has anything to do with "grace" that is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?

It looks like we have received - grace upon grace through the Lord Jesus Christ

John 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

It looks like we "believe through grace"..

( I'm sure they really meant that we are saved because of the good works we do...)

Acts 18:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Paul said that it was the grace of God that would give the believers their inheritance and it was able to build them up.

( Maybe that's not really important...)

Acts 20:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Paul said for Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

( He probably didn't really mean it.... )


2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.


The apostles said that we are saved by the grace of God which is in the Lord Jesus.

( They probably really meant to say - you are saved by works that we do or don't do.)

Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Paul says that we are justified "freely" by grace....

(He really meant to say - we are justified and continue to be saved by all the good works we do... )

Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Paul says that when we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness - we reign in life through Christ alone.

( He really meant to say that - those who do good works all the days of their life will receive grace and the gift of righteousness )

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


Then Paul was really messed up when he told the Ephesians this scripture below-

( He really meant to say - you must do good works in order to create and maintain salvation - Paul was just having an "off" day when he wrote Ephesians )

( And God has even prepared the good works for us to walk in as a result of having His grace that saves us and not any works - we get to participate in the family business of telling people of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them )


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Here Paul told Timothy that God saved us according to His own purpose and grace - not according to our works.

( He really meant to say - He will save us if we do enough good works...again Paul was having an "off" day )

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,



Peter says to fix our hope "completely" on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

( It's most likely a mis-print in all 5,000 manuscripts - he really meant to tell us to fix our hope on our good works because you could end up in hell if you don't do enough of them..)

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Conclusion - this "grace stuff" is really not important at all. We can "do our own works of righteousness in order to keep ourselves saved" - and God will be happy with that works-righteousness belief system....yeah right!.......

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, that's the knot in my mind over this, isn't it?
If you are existing forever, you are living forever, which is to have eternal life.

My other knot is that I can't see in my reading where man is born with eternal life in him, or a part that lives forever.

A person who has not been born again, is considered dead. He must be "made alive" to become a child of God.

That "life" God calls "eternal life"

A person who remains dead, will continue to remain dead, then end up suffering the second death. Which I guess could be aplly called eternal death. since that death will last forever

does this help any? lol

 

[Stephen63]

The Bible does make it clear that we are to work in order to confirm that we are among the called and chosen. But my experience over many years has shown me that very, very few Christians know about the passages that command us to do this. And when they do see them, they can only understand 'works' in one way, as trying to earn your salvation. It's very disturbing that so many people in the church can only understand works that way.

Many take the broad way, PHart.

 

[FranC]

Back and forwards over the same ground.
We should all believe it is faith alone that saves us.
And works are just a result.
Simple. they can't be seperated because true faith results in Godly works. SIMPLE
Works are not bad or wrong or a way to be saved if you believe Jesus has already saved you.

Amen.

So why do you find it easy to say?

Because those who fight it promote hyper grace.
It goes against everything Jesus taught.
They sound sweet and nice..

But they will not make the simple statement you just did.

That false doctrine needs to be exposed.
The doctrine that says that we, the saved by faith, need do Nothing!

"All evil needs to flourish..
Is for good to do nothing."

I, for one, will not accept their doctrine quietly.

 

[Stephen63]

It seem laziness is encouraged nowadays while the lord expects his people to work

True that man..... true that.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Is it possible to recieve the indwelling Holy spirit, and recieve the gifts of the Holy spirit and see no evidence in your life? No.


Will your works earn salvation? No.

Is it possible to have been chosen by God and still choose sin even one time? Ask Noah.

Is it possible to get declaired righteous and make it into heaven with no good works? Ask the thief on the cross.

How do you know you know God? You obey him.


There are many who in their life time, have not recieved a tenth of the wisdom someone else may have, and by wisdom I mean understanding of who God is.

It seems to me, a faithful servant of God WALKING in the spirit and LIVING a life seeking Gods Will, will have many good works. (praise God for using us)


It seems to me not all in heaven have this luxery.... maybe an aborted baby.... maybe someone who is called to repentence on their death bed...


How about we glorify God as we should and stop focusing on OUR works.

If we are walking in the spirit, and put our faith in Jesus it will not be a dead faith....

does anyone here have any issues with this?

if so may i ask why?

 

[mailmandan]

I agree. But whenever I say this I get called a 'works salvationist', and it doesn't get any 'likes' from the people who like your posts, lol. Go figure.

Maybe it's in the semantics, the way you present it?

 

[FranC]

As far as grace goes which is only found in Christ's work and Person. You can't have Christ without grace and truth. Grace is NOT a doctrine - you can't have a relationship with a doctrine - grace is personified in Christ Himself.

Trying to separate grace from Christ is like trying to separate the "wet from water".

I wonder if this "Christian" thing has anything to do with "grace" that is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?

It looks like we have received - grace upon grace through the Lord Jesus Christ

John 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

It looks like we "believe through grace"..

( I'm sure they really meant that we are saved because of the good works we do...)

Acts 18:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Paul said that it was the grace of God that would give the believers their inheritance and it was able to build them up.

( Maybe that's not really important...)

Acts 20:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Paul said for Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

( He probably didn't really mean it.... )


2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.


The apostles said that we are saved by the grace of God which is in the Lord Jesus.

( They probably really meant to say - you are saved by works that we do or don't do.)

Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."


Paul says that we are justified "freely" by grace....

(He really meant to say - we are justified and continue to be saved by all the good works we do... )

Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


Paul says that when we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness - we reign in life through Christ alone.

( He really meant to say that - those who do good works all the days of their life will receive grace and the gift of righteousness )

Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.


Then Paul was really messed up when he told the Ephesians this scripture below-

( He really meant to say - you must do good works in order to create and maintain salvation - Paul was just having an "off" day when he wrote Ephesians )

( And God has even prepared the good works for us to walk in as a result of having His grace that saves us and not any works - we get to participate in the family business of telling people of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them )


Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.


Here Paul told Timothy that God saved us according to His own purpose and grace - not according to our works.

( He really meant to say - He will save us if we do enough good works...again Paul was having an "off" day )

2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,



Peter says to fix our hope "completely" on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

( It's most likely a mis-print in all 5,000 manuscripts - he really meant to tell us to fix our hope on our good works because you could end up in hell if you don't do enough of them..)

1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.


Conclusion - this "grace stuff" is really not important at all. We can "do our own works of righteousness in order to keep ourselves saved" - and God will be happy with that works-righteousness belief system....yeah right!.......

What's all that green there??
Are you saying that the NT writers didn't know how to say what they wanted to say????
Are you saying they were dumb and they need YOU to explain what they meant?

Incredible.

 

[UnderGrace]

I do not completely agree, but I do not have an issue with it per se.

I need to think on it a bit, I will get back to you

does anyone here have any issues with this?

if so may i ask why?