The Rapture
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You're giving a perfect example of how you CHANGE the words of the bible to fit your PRECONCEIVED ideas..... You think the Jerusalem that is being built in Daniel 9 is earthly Jerasalem THEREFOR 7 weeks CANNOT be 7 weeks it must be 49 years.
If you would stop CHANGING the words of the bible then you would see it's obvious that the 70 weeks are literal and the city being BUILT isn't the earthly Jerusalem.
And you STILL did not answer my question - Where does the bible say 1 week is equal to 70 years?
If you would stop CHANGING the words of the bible then you would see it's obvious that the 70 weeks are literal and the city being BUILT isn't the earthly Jerusalem.
And you STILL did not answer my question - Where does the bible say 1 week is equal to 70 years?
the day of the Lord is a day of judgment, it is da SECOND coming. it wasnt the first coming. it is a period of time in which the Lord will pour His wrath on da earth.
this is another proof for da pre-trib rapture. first Paul sent a letter to da thessalonians, told em about da rapture and told em to comfort one another with that knowledge. then some bozo sent a forged letter in Paul's name. this caused the thessalonians to think that "the day of the Lord is already at hand" and Paul told them to not be shaken in mind by such false teachings.
now if its true that the rapture happens at the same time as the second coming, why would they be shaken in mind that they are in da day of the Lord? shouldnt it be a good thing? they were worried that they had missed the rapture and will have to face the wrath of God.
this is another proof for da pre-trib rapture. first Paul sent a letter to da thessalonians, told em about da rapture and told em to comfort one another with that knowledge. then some bozo sent a forged letter in Paul's name. this caused the thessalonians to think that "the day of the Lord is already at hand" and Paul told them to not be shaken in mind by such false teachings.
now if its true that the rapture happens at the same time as the second coming, why would they be shaken in mind that they are in da day of the Lord? shouldnt it be a good thing? they were worried that they had missed the rapture and will have to face the wrath of God.
He said it would be the worst "tribulation" ever. This means the worst "suffering" any nation ever experienced. 93% of the population in Jerusalem died in the most horrific ways possible from 67-70 AD. This mortality rate far exceeds that of the ghettos in Nazi occupied territory or the combined 6 million killed (which was less than 50%) during WWII.
The entire NT was written in the 1st century and it records 1st century events. Get over it.
The entire NT was written in the 1st century and it records 1st century events. Get over it.
Again, there have been multiple "Days of the Lord." Here is one of them from Isa 13 which was against Babylon as the passage tells us. Look at the common descriptive language used about the sun and moon, etc. The passage makes it seem like God is attacking the whole planet, but He isn't.
The same descriptive language is used by Jesus to foretell the destruction of Jerusalem. This is so clear and obvious that nobody can dispute it.
The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The Lord of hosts musters
The army for battle.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The Lord and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
The same descriptive language is used by Jesus to foretell the destruction of Jerusalem. This is so clear and obvious that nobody can dispute it.
The burden against Babylon which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]“Lift up a banner on the high mountain,
Raise your voice to them;
Wave your hand, that they may enter the gates of the nobles.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]I have commanded My sanctified ones;
I have also called My mighty ones for My anger—
Those who rejoice in My exaltation.”
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The noise of a multitude in the mountains,
Like that of many people!
A tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together!
The Lord of hosts musters
The army for battle.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]They come from a far country,
From the end of heaven—
The Lord and His weapons of indignation,
To destroy the whole land.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Wail, for the day of the Lord is at hand!
It will come as destruction from the Almighty.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore all hands will be limp,
Every man’s heart will melt,
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And they will be afraid.
Pangs and sorrows will take hold of them;
They will be in pain as a woman in childbirth;
They will be amazed at one another;
Their faces will be like flames.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Behold, the day of the Lord comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy its sinners from it.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give their light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]“I will punish the world for its evil,
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will halt the arrogance of the proud,
And will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold,
A man more than the golden wedge of Ophir.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.
TO PLAINWORD
Only a preterit will say this;
"the Great Tribulation was the horrible conditions inside Jerusalem leading up to it's destruction in 70 AD".
Let's see what the Bible says rather;
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Clearly the tribulation is WORLDWIDE, and JERUSALEM did not even exist since the beginning of the world. Further... all the tribes of the earth mourn as they see the Sign. WORLDWIDE for sure.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Oh great...so those led off into slavery (according to plainword) are ELECT or CHOSEN ONES then!!!! What absolute madness as these Jews killed Jesus. Also, no way was the attack and destruction of Jerusalem cut short, as a matter of fact even extended to Messada years later.
Actually I feel sorry for preterit's and pretrib rapture believers, as they will only find out they are wrong when IN the great tribulation.
Only a preterit will say this;
"the Great Tribulation was the horrible conditions inside Jerusalem leading up to it's destruction in 70 AD".
Let's see what the Bible says rather;
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Clearly the tribulation is WORLDWIDE, and JERUSALEM did not even exist since the beginning of the world. Further... all the tribes of the earth mourn as they see the Sign. WORLDWIDE for sure.
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Oh great...so those led off into slavery (according to plainword) are ELECT or CHOSEN ONES then!!!! What absolute madness as these Jews killed Jesus. Also, no way was the attack and destruction of Jerusalem cut short, as a matter of fact even extended to Messada years later.
Actually I feel sorry for preterit's and pretrib rapture believers, as they will only find out they are wrong when IN the great tribulation.
If what you say is true then the time from the decree will be EXACT, can you show proof that from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to Christ being cut off is exactly 483 years? If I'm going to believe this is the true method of counting the weeks, I need proof that it works to the day exactly.
Also it seems that no one knows when Jesus was born nor when he died, how is it that you know these dates exactly?
Also it seems that no one knows when Jesus was born nor when he died, how is it that you know these dates exactly?
Hello Sir. Welcome to the discussion. All one has to do to understand the timing of the great tribulation of Mat 24 is to compare it to the companion passage of Luke 21. It is "Jerusalem which is surrounded by armies." Even in Mat 24 it is "those in Judea" who are told to flee. So to say this is a global event is not supported by the context. The passage begins with talk of the destruction of the temple. This is the focus of the whole chapter.
If you did a little homework by comparing scripture to scripture, you would learn that the "earth" is often associated with Israel (Isa 1:2). Therefore the "tribes of the earth" are in fact the "tribes of Israel" which were scattered after Babylon.
Those Jews who survived (the 97-98K) were led away captive by Titus. This is clearly recorded in history. Those days were "cut short" otherwise not even this small remnant would have been saved. There is always a remnant dear brother.
Any person who cannot see that the Great Tribulation was completely fulfilled in the first century has little to no knowledge of history. However, I will not waste my time trying to educate you because it has been my experience that those who are relatively advanced in years are so set in their ways that their minds can never be changed. I can at least comfort you by telling you that you will not see the great tribulation nor will you see the rapture. You will go to heaven the way all saints have gone to heaven for the past 1947 years. Of this you can be certain.
If you did a little homework by comparing scripture to scripture, you would learn that the "earth" is often associated with Israel (Isa 1:2). Therefore the "tribes of the earth" are in fact the "tribes of Israel" which were scattered after Babylon.
Those Jews who survived (the 97-98K) were led away captive by Titus. This is clearly recorded in history. Those days were "cut short" otherwise not even this small remnant would have been saved. There is always a remnant dear brother.
Any person who cannot see that the Great Tribulation was completely fulfilled in the first century has little to no knowledge of history. However, I will not waste my time trying to educate you because it has been my experience that those who are relatively advanced in years are so set in their ways that their minds can never be changed. I can at least comfort you by telling you that you will not see the great tribulation nor will you see the rapture. You will go to heaven the way all saints have gone to heaven for the past 1947 years. Of this you can be certain.
The man of sin will establish peace in the Middle East,and will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel,and the Gentile nations will come together,and say,Peace and safety,and will try to achieve peace on earth,and the Jews,and the Gentiles,will be separated.
The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians,and the Jews will build their temple with no hassle from the Palestinians.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel is blinded in part,which means they accept the Old Testament for the majority,but the nation of Israel must turn to the truth,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,the condition of the world in response to the Gospel,in which the time will come they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,spiritual evolution through nature,and will be turned unto fables,which the unified religious system is based on spiritual evolution through nature,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,which will pave the way for the man of sin to rule in the future,for he will claim to be God through the power of nature.
When He claims to be God,then the saints can be gathered unto Christ,and he will rule for the last three and one half years.
Salvation is available to the Gentiles during the first three and one half years,for the fulness of the Gentiles have not come in yet,so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.
When the world takes the mark of the beast,then repentance,and salvation,are no longer available to the Gentiles,and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in,and for the last three and one half years God will turn Israel to the truth.
The beast makes war against the saints for the last three and one half years.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time(three and one half years).
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half(three and one half years); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
The Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians,and the Jews will build their temple with no hassle from the Palestinians.
Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Mat 23:38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Mat 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Jer 46:27 But fear not thou, O my servant Jacob, and be not dismayed, O Israel: for, behold, I will save thee from afar off, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and be in rest and at ease, and none shall make him afraid.
Jer 46:28 Fear thou not, O Jacob my servant, saith the LORD: for I am with thee; for I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have driven thee: but I will not make a full end of thee, but correct thee in measure; yet will I not leave thee wholly unpunished.
Eze 39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
Eze 39:26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
Eze 39:27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
Eze 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
Eze 39:29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Israel is blinded in part,which means they accept the Old Testament for the majority,but the nation of Israel must turn to the truth,until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in,when salvation is no longer available to the Gentiles,and so all Israel shall be saved.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first,the condition of the world in response to the Gospel,in which the time will come they will not want to hear the truth of the Bible,but according to their own lusts,spiritual evolution through nature,and will be turned unto fables,which the unified religious system is based on spiritual evolution through nature,and Christianity will rapidly decline in impacting the world with the truth,which will pave the way for the man of sin to rule in the future,for he will claim to be God through the power of nature.
When He claims to be God,then the saints can be gathered unto Christ,and he will rule for the last three and one half years.
Salvation is available to the Gentiles during the first three and one half years,for the fulness of the Gentiles have not come in yet,so the saints will remain on earth to represent the truth.
When the world takes the mark of the beast,then repentance,and salvation,are no longer available to the Gentiles,and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in,and for the last three and one half years God will turn Israel to the truth.
The beast makes war against the saints for the last three and one half years.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time(three and one half years).
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half(three and one half years); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Exactly, the dating/counting years method will not work. There were several adjustments made to the calendar over the centuries. The date of the Exodus was the basis for most dating including the Babylonian captivity. This date has recently been called into question based on the archeological record in Egypt. If we cannot be sure when the Exodus occurred, no date before Christ is certain.
However, the wise Jews of Christ's day would know as Christ alluded to in Luke 19. You and I agree, Dan 9 is long ago in the past. The last event mentioned there was the consummation (by fire) of the "desolate" which were the Jews of 70 AD. That consummation, which was poured out, upon the desolate was clearly the 70 AD fires which destroyed Jerusalem and Titus was clearly the "prince of the people to come." As I said, the Jews of that day knew it and Josephus records that they knew it.
4. Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.
However, the wise Jews of Christ's day would know as Christ alluded to in Luke 19. You and I agree, Dan 9 is long ago in the past. The last event mentioned there was the consummation (by fire) of the "desolate" which were the Jews of 70 AD. That consummation, which was poured out, upon the desolate was clearly the 70 AD fires which destroyed Jerusalem and Titus was clearly the "prince of the people to come." As I said, the Jews of that day knew it and Josephus records that they knew it.
4. Now if any one consider these things, he will find that God takes care of mankind, and by all ways possible foreshows to our race what is for their preservation; but that men perish by those miseries which they madly and voluntarily bring upon themselves; for the Jews, by demolishing the tower of Antonia, had made their temple four-square, while at the same time they had it written in their sacred oracles, "That then should their city be taken, as well as their holy house, when once their temple should become four-square." But now, what did the most elevate them in undertaking this war, was an ambiguous oracle that was also found in their sacred writings, how," about that time, one from their country should become governor of the habitable earth." The Jews took this prediction to belong to themselves in particular, and many of the wise men were thereby deceived in their determination. Now this oracle certainly denoted the government of Vespasian, who was appointed emperor in Judea. However, it is not possible for men to avoid fate, although they see it beforehand. But these men interpreted some of these signals according to their own pleasure, and some of them they utterly despised, until their madness was demonstrated, both by the taking of their city and their own destruction.