The Rapture
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However He takes the SEAT in the TEMPLE of GOD, displaying himself as being GOD.
The ONLY SEAT IN THE ENTIRE TEMPLE IS THE MERCY SEAT IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
WHEN the ONLY one who has the right to sit there is GOD (Jesus Christ).
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NOT EVEN CLOSE, that portion of Scripture is talking about those who
DENY that JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR.
I have never seen you GLORIFY JESUS CHRIST AS BEING GOD IN THE FLESH.
YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST DO YOU?
Romans 1:18-22 (CSBBible)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Claiming to be wise, they became fools
Come on tell us, DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD AND MAN?
DENY that JESUS IS GOD THE CREATOR.
I have never seen you GLORIFY JESUS CHRIST AS BEING GOD IN THE FLESH.
YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST DO YOU?
Romans 1:18-22 (CSBBible)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth,
[SUP]19 [/SUP] since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
[SUP]20 [/SUP] For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Claiming to be wise, they became fools
Come on tell us, DO YOU BELIEVE JESUS IS GOD AND MAN?
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H
There are several views.
Mine is "one taken,one left" is the rapture. Why? Because it is a peaceful setting,and there are "2 in a bed",2 men,so why would saved and unsaved dwelling together? So obviously both are dwelling together,and saved
Read:" After the trib"....it says the elect are gathered FROM HEAVEN. If we are on earth,as post tribbers say,we would be gathered from earth,not heaven.
Mine is "one taken,one left" is the rapture. Why? Because it is a peaceful setting,and there are "2 in a bed",2 men,so why would saved and unsaved dwelling together? So obviously both are dwelling together,and saved
Read:" After the trib"....it says the elect are gathered FROM HEAVEN. If we are on earth,as post tribbers say,we would be gathered from earth,not heaven.
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Good day heartofdavid,
There are a couple of reasons why the "one taken, one left" cannot be referring to those taken as being the living church.
First of all, the "one taken" group is being compared to those who were taken away in the flood. Therefore the comparison is wicked to wicked and not wicked to righteous.
In addition, consider the following:
=================================================
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
“Where, Lord?” they asked. (where are they going to be taken)
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.
================================================
So after Jesus tells his disciples, "one will be taken, the other left," the disciples ask him, "where Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? The Lord's answer regarding those being taken would definitely not be a fitting response repesenting the living church being gathered. So what was the Lord talking about in saying this?
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” - (Rev.19:17)
According to the parable of the weeds and the wheat in Matt.13, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels go out and first collect the weeds, which would be referring to the "one taken." The reference to "wherever the dead body is there will the vultures/birds be gathered, is referring to the event when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when that angel gathers all of the birds of the air. At Armageddon, all of those kings, their generals, the mighty men, their horses and all of those "one taken" that the angels will have gathered, will all be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which is figurative for him speaking the word of God. And the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh, which is what Jesus was referring to when he said, "wherever there is a dead body, there will the vultures/birds gather."
There are a couple of reasons why the "one taken, one left" cannot be referring to those taken as being the living church.
First of all, the "one taken" group is being compared to those who were taken away in the flood. Therefore the comparison is wicked to wicked and not wicked to righteous.
In addition, consider the following:
=================================================
I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.”
“Where, Lord?” they asked. (where are they going to be taken)
He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.
================================================
So after Jesus tells his disciples, "one will be taken, the other left," the disciples ask him, "where Lord?" That is, where are they going to be taken? The Lord's answer regarding those being taken would definitely not be a fitting response repesenting the living church being gathered. So what was the Lord talking about in saying this?
"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.” - (Rev.19:17)
According to the parable of the weeds and the wheat in Matt.13, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels go out and first collect the weeds, which would be referring to the "one taken." The reference to "wherever the dead body is there will the vultures/birds be gathered, is referring to the event when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age when that angel gathers all of the birds of the air. At Armageddon, all of those kings, their generals, the mighty men, their horses and all of those "one taken" that the angels will have gathered, will all be killed by that double-edged sword that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord, which is figurative for him speaking the word of God. And the birds will gorge themselves on their flesh, which is what Jesus was referring to when he said, "wherever there is a dead body, there will the vultures/birds gather."
However He takes the SEAT in the TEMPLE of GOD, displaying himself as being GOD.
The ONLY SEAT IN THE ENTIRE TEMPLE IS THE MERCY SEAT IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
WHEN the ONLY one who has the right to sit there is GOD (Jesus Christ).
The ONLY SEAT IN THE ENTIRE TEMPLE IS THE MERCY SEAT IN THE HOLY OF HOLIES:
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
[SUP]4 [/SUP] who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.
WHEN the ONLY one who has the right to sit there is GOD (Jesus Christ).
I sit on the Board of Directors for a small company. Lot's of times, I'm not seated. I have a friend who once sat for the bar exam.
Actually, not to sound haughty, but I know my Bible quite well. Lots of us disagree with each other on some of the interpretations. Being a bit of an historian helps me to understand past fulfillment. Titus fulfilled each of the criteria listed for the Man of Sin.
But if your world view is that everything is future and none of the NT writings were for those living in those times and instead belonged to a generation 20 centuries later, then you aren't going to see past fulfillment. This is called "bias." We all have inherent biases and they affect our decision making.
Let me explain it to you this way.
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.|
Luke 21:21 "because these are days of vengeance, so that ALL things which are written will be fulfilled."
Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."
Compare this with Peter's statement:
Acts 3:24 “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days.
We have Jesus stating that ALL things which were written would be fulfilled in the desolation of of Jerusalem - that would mean ANY prophecy that not was not already fulfilled.
And Peter concurred, that ALL of the prophet's prophecies not already fulfilled would be fulfilled in "these days" which was the generation that he was living in and the generation in which Jesus said "ALL things which are written will be fulfilled."
Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near.|
Luke 21:21 "because these are days of vengeance, so that ALL things which are written will be fulfilled."
Luke 21:32 “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place."
Compare this with Peter's statement:
Acts 3:24 “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days.
We have Jesus stating that ALL things which were written would be fulfilled in the desolation of of Jerusalem - that would mean ANY prophecy that not was not already fulfilled.
And Peter concurred, that ALL of the prophet's prophecies not already fulfilled would be fulfilled in "these days" which was the generation that he was living in and the generation in which Jesus said "ALL things which are written will be fulfilled."
No problem. Especially since I was just teasing you. LOL. You see my feelings are covered with rhino hide.
I was Ministering to Inmates in super-max prisons for 15 years as a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain. That will toughen your hide for sure. Believe me, I got called every dirty name in the book, many of them I would never repeat here. The good news is the few that did become born again Christians. ONE of them who Insulted me a lot, calling me names, will be standing on my right side when we are before the the THRONE OF GRACE, singing praises to our LORD. I ministered to that same inmate over the span of fifteen years. Even when he was cursing at me for several weeks, I would still stop about once a week or so, and talk to him about the Lord and his family at home. So he eventually became a born again Christian, and I had to move, but both towns happened to have a super-max prisons. Low and behold, John, whom the Correctional Officers in the first Prison called the Most Dangerous Inmate we have here, finally after years of trying to share the Gospel with him, became a Believer. He was a Lifer, in the part of the Hole, called the Violence Control Unit the very first day I went in to Minister to inmates in that Prison. The Holy Spirit kept putting it on my heart to not give up on John. Then one day my wife was offered a big promotion in her Career, so we moved. A couple months later, John came into the Chapel in my Second super-max prison, at the very the moment I was putting my Sermon Verses on the Pulpit. THIS BIG SMILE CAME OVER HIS FACE and he came up front and gave me a big hug.
Then when I retired from the Post Office, (the job that payed the bills), we decided to move to be close to gandchildren. So the day I was going to turn in my prison ID BADGE, I went in to say goodbye to John at his cell. He got all excited when He saw me coming, and shoved papers out the crack in the side of the door, almost yelling "Chaplain You got to see this." John, the Inmate that Officers told me would grow old and die in the Violence Control Unit cell, when I first met him; had fifteen years later qualified for a Good Behavior Parole, even though He was originally sentenced to Life. I told John, "When we get to heaven and we are standing before the THRONE OF GRACE, I want you standing on my right side." He grinned and said, "That's where I want to be standing too." Yes, it was only the few, that really responded to the Gospel Message, but I learned to REJOICE ALL THE MORE, OVER THE FEW.
Why did I call my Sermon Notes: Sermon Verses? Because I rarely put anything but the Verses on those Notes, because I totally Trusted HIM to give me everything He wanted my to say about those verses, including the ability to explain what they meant and how they applied to our lives. My sermons always lasted 45-60 minutes.
☝t<><
I was Ministering to Inmates in super-max prisons for 15 years as a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain. That will toughen your hide for sure. Believe me, I got called every dirty name in the book, many of them I would never repeat here. The good news is the few that did become born again Christians. ONE of them who Insulted me a lot, calling me names, will be standing on my right side when we are before the the THRONE OF GRACE, singing praises to our LORD. I ministered to that same inmate over the span of fifteen years. Even when he was cursing at me for several weeks, I would still stop about once a week or so, and talk to him about the Lord and his family at home. So he eventually became a born again Christian, and I had to move, but both towns happened to have a super-max prisons. Low and behold, John, whom the Correctional Officers in the first Prison called the Most Dangerous Inmate we have here, finally after years of trying to share the Gospel with him, became a Believer. He was a Lifer, in the part of the Hole, called the Violence Control Unit the very first day I went in to Minister to inmates in that Prison. The Holy Spirit kept putting it on my heart to not give up on John. Then one day my wife was offered a big promotion in her Career, so we moved. A couple months later, John came into the Chapel in my Second super-max prison, at the very the moment I was putting my Sermon Verses on the Pulpit. THIS BIG SMILE CAME OVER HIS FACE and he came up front and gave me a big hug.
Then when I retired from the Post Office, (the job that payed the bills), we decided to move to be close to gandchildren. So the day I was going to turn in my prison ID BADGE, I went in to say goodbye to John at his cell. He got all excited when He saw me coming, and shoved papers out the crack in the side of the door, almost yelling "Chaplain You got to see this." John, the Inmate that Officers told me would grow old and die in the Violence Control Unit cell, when I first met him; had fifteen years later qualified for a Good Behavior Parole, even though He was originally sentenced to Life. I told John, "When we get to heaven and we are standing before the THRONE OF GRACE, I want you standing on my right side." He grinned and said, "That's where I want to be standing too." Yes, it was only the few, that really responded to the Gospel Message, but I learned to REJOICE ALL THE MORE, OVER THE FEW.
Why did I call my Sermon Notes: Sermon Verses? Because I rarely put anything but the Verses on those Notes, because I totally Trusted HIM to give me everything He wanted my to say about those verses, including the ability to explain what they meant and how they applied to our lives. My sermons always lasted 45-60 minutes.
☝t<><
H
Ok,in the flood,there was not a 1/2 taken dimension. Also,with the wheat and the tares,a case is made AGAINST trying to separate harvest the tares. Further , I think it is righteous taken,and righteous left behind.
Many times,when asked,Jesus would answer in mysteries.
I believe the bodies and vultures answer was a mystery. Kinda like saying " where there is smoke,there is fire". Never intending to infer smoke,nor fire.
IOW, it is meaning "when you see one,you know the other is there,or will be there shortly"
The setting is all peacetime,all normal people going through a normal day.
The setting you are talking about,is a destroyed earth,unless it is after the millennium,and those gathered after the millennium,stand together at the GWT judgement waiting to be burned,so no vultures.
On the other hand,the only place 50% are gathered,is at the rapture.which would be a righteous to righteous gathering as in the ten virgin parable
Many times,when asked,Jesus would answer in mysteries.
I believe the bodies and vultures answer was a mystery. Kinda like saying " where there is smoke,there is fire". Never intending to infer smoke,nor fire.
IOW, it is meaning "when you see one,you know the other is there,or will be there shortly"
The setting is all peacetime,all normal people going through a normal day.
The setting you are talking about,is a destroyed earth,unless it is after the millennium,and those gathered after the millennium,stand together at the GWT judgement waiting to be burned,so no vultures.
On the other hand,the only place 50% are gathered,is at the rapture.which would be a righteous to righteous gathering as in the ten virgin parable
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lol, I'll re-word it in Acts 2 Peter quotes Joel 2:28 "and it shall come to pass AFTERWARD that I will ect." so something happened prior to Acts 2 what took place before Peter said this? Now in Acts 3:21 Peter saw that the restoration of all things had not yet happened and would in the future(years the locust had eaten). In 2Thessalonians 2:2 Paul says the day of the Lord had not yet come.
So what took place "prior to Acts 2"? Something happened (prior) to Acts 2:16, one is before the other is afterwards (Joel 2:28).
So what took place "prior to Acts 2"? Something happened (prior) to Acts 2:16, one is before the other is afterwards (Joel 2:28).
Looks to me like you are lollygagging around here - you don't get to re-word Peter's statement to try and pull yourself out of the hole your in..
His words are:
Acts 2:16 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
You'll notice he's modified and clarified Joel's prophecy to "last days" under the inspiration of the holy spirit.
I don't think it's a good idea for you to try it.....
His words are:
Acts 2:16 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
You'll notice he's modified and clarified Joel's prophecy to "last days" under the inspiration of the holy spirit.
I don't think it's a good idea for you to try it.....
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The problem with your understanding is that, the weeds represent the wicked and the wheat represents the righteous. Therefore, when the harvesters/angels go throughout the earth, when they first gather the weeds (one taken) they will be gathering the wicked. Afterwards the wheat will be gathered, which is synonymous with Matt.24:31.
Also and as I previously pointed out and is unmistakable, is that the "one taken" is being compared to those who were "taken away" by the flood, which are also the wicked.
Just as the wicked were taken away in the flood, so also at the end of the age will the wicked be collected by the angels and brought back to the valley of Megiddo and killed by the double-edged sword. I'm not telling you this as something that is debatable, but a fact.
When Jesus said "one will be taken and the other left" and his disciples said "where Lord?" And Jesus said "wherever there is a dead body there will the vultures be gathered," how does that support the event the gathering of the church? It doesn't!
The fact that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21 and sending his angels out to first collect the weeds at the end of the age. And the fact that at the end of the age there will be an angel calling to all the birds to come and gather themselves to the great supper of God to eat the flesh of those kings, generals, the might men, their horses and those who will have been taken by the angels, it would support the Lord's response when He said, "wherever a dead body is there will the birds be gathered."
"one taken and one left" is not the righteous and the righteous. According to the parable in matt.13, the harvesters/angels will "first" weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
As far as people eating and drinking, marrying and giving marriage, planting building, etc., this will be the state of things just before the church is gathered, which is then followed by God's wrath, sudden destruction.
Also and as I previously pointed out and is unmistakable, is that the "one taken" is being compared to those who were "taken away" by the flood, which are also the wicked.
Just as the wicked were taken away in the flood, so also at the end of the age will the wicked be collected by the angels and brought back to the valley of Megiddo and killed by the double-edged sword. I'm not telling you this as something that is debatable, but a fact.
When Jesus said "one will be taken and the other left" and his disciples said "where Lord?" And Jesus said "wherever there is a dead body there will the vultures be gathered," how does that support the event the gathering of the church? It doesn't!
The fact that when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as demonstrated in Rev.19:11-21 and sending his angels out to first collect the weeds at the end of the age. And the fact that at the end of the age there will be an angel calling to all the birds to come and gather themselves to the great supper of God to eat the flesh of those kings, generals, the might men, their horses and those who will have been taken by the angels, it would support the Lord's response when He said, "wherever a dead body is there will the birds be gathered."
"one taken and one left" is not the righteous and the righteous. According to the parable in matt.13, the harvesters/angels will "first" weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
As far as people eating and drinking, marrying and giving marriage, planting building, etc., this will be the state of things just before the church is gathered, which is then followed by God's wrath, sudden destruction.
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Looks to me like you are lollygagging around here - you don't get to re-word Peter's statement to try and pull yourself out of the hole your in..
His words are:
Acts 2:16 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
You'll notice he's modified and clarified Joel's prophecy to "last days" under the inspiration of the holy spirit.
I don't think it's a good idea for you to try it.....
His words are:
Acts 2:16 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
You'll notice he's modified and clarified Joel's prophecy to "last days" under the inspiration of the holy spirit.
I don't think it's a good idea for you to try it.....
lol,It went over your head twice,no point in bothering with a third...
H
Your first thrre paragraphs have 3 premises
1) half the wicked are taken away
2)the tares are harvested at harvest time with the wheat still standing in the field
3) the wheat and tares analogy points to Armageddon.
All three are wrong.
There is no "wicked taken". in mat.( and especially any instance anywhere,where half the wicked are gathered).
The righteous are taken out. DELIVERED.
The wheat and tares are harvested TOGETHER. Then separated. Not meticulously cut while leaving the wheat standing.
Re read the story. A case is even made against the "leave the wheat standing" idea.
Further,the tares are burned. So it is NOT Armageddon. It is the GWT judgement.
Also,the taking out all things that offend is at the end of the millennium.
Ok,now,it is not fact ,as you say. It is debatable,as I have shown you conclusively that every component you brought forward is incorrect.
IOW,you began incorrectly. You began with the "body/vulture" dynamic. Then,you built on top of it.
That is the same mistake postribbers make when ascribing the last trump.
The only thing,as I see it,where your understanding would possibly work is at rev 14,where there is a gathering of wicked,before Armageddon.
THREE BIG PROBLEMS;
1) You guessed it,the RIGHTEOUS are gathered first
2) there is no " half the wicked taken"
3) the setting is a destroyed earth.
The one taken,one left component is not defined or understood through Jesus answer to" where are they taken".
The only plausible explanation is that Jesus was making a synonymous statement, like "red sky,branches,vine,winepress,fig tree,snake,bread"...and so on.
Vultures / bodies Armageddon = yes
Everytime = no
1) half the wicked are taken away
2)the tares are harvested at harvest time with the wheat still standing in the field
3) the wheat and tares analogy points to Armageddon.
All three are wrong.
There is no "wicked taken". in mat.( and especially any instance anywhere,where half the wicked are gathered).
The righteous are taken out. DELIVERED.
The wheat and tares are harvested TOGETHER. Then separated. Not meticulously cut while leaving the wheat standing.
Re read the story. A case is even made against the "leave the wheat standing" idea.
Further,the tares are burned. So it is NOT Armageddon. It is the GWT judgement.
Also,the taking out all things that offend is at the end of the millennium.
Ok,now,it is not fact ,as you say. It is debatable,as I have shown you conclusively that every component you brought forward is incorrect.
IOW,you began incorrectly. You began with the "body/vulture" dynamic. Then,you built on top of it.
That is the same mistake postribbers make when ascribing the last trump.
The only thing,as I see it,where your understanding would possibly work is at rev 14,where there is a gathering of wicked,before Armageddon.
THREE BIG PROBLEMS;
1) You guessed it,the RIGHTEOUS are gathered first
2) there is no " half the wicked taken"
3) the setting is a destroyed earth.
The one taken,one left component is not defined or understood through Jesus answer to" where are they taken".
The only plausible explanation is that Jesus was making a synonymous statement, like "red sky,branches,vine,winepress,fig tree,snake,bread"...and so on.
Vultures / bodies Armageddon = yes
Everytime = no