Not By Works

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May 12, 2017
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They are not revealed to all, and are still mysteries... plus, we do not understand everything about God. At least, it would seem impossible for a finite mind to comprehend the infinity of Him. We do not even understand everything about our own selves. Science seeks answers yet exposes ever more layers and questions and unknowns.
Psalm 25.2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Psalm 25.14
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.

1 Cor 2.10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
 
Z
The purpose of forgiveness was reconciliation. Christs blood was shed for all and all were forgiven.. forgiveness is the bridge, reconciliation is access. You can be forgiven all day and not be reconciled
No. They say fruit bearing is not necessary to be saved and that only Gods kindness and faith are necessary for that. Once that is out of the way, they move on. But they are right to refuse to move on in discussion to further things if they think a man has not yet got it that his being forgiven is a done deal.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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This reminds me of a verse - something like....it is the glory of God to mysteriously conceal a matter and the glory of us to search it out and find what He has hidden.
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call on me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you,” declares the Lord, “and will bring you back from captivity.
*
From one man He made every nation of men, to inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. ‘For in Him we live and move and have our being.’ As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are His offspring.’


 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Ah, yes, I was meaning that differently.
I used to struggle more in my trust. It was NOT passive, I can tell you that. And I struggled to be good, to do right, to not murder.

I don't struggle as much because my trust increased and because I discovered I could NOT be good no matter how hard I tried. I still murdered.

When I trusted Him more, to make me what He has promised, a lot of my struggle ended. It became more of a passive waiting than a monstrous struggle.

So what was once active became passive through trust.

My biggest problem more recently has been impatience at His pace.

Gotcha! :)

I see now what you mean. Sorry I misunderstood.

You're talking about resting.....trusting. Amen!!! It's so wonderful when we can totally give up trying and rest in the Spirit's power within. Bless you sister!!! I rejoice with you.

It reminds me of a story during a sermon. One pastor was telling another pastor about something that happened one day when he went fishing.

The story-telling pastor was out in his boat with a friend and his friend fell overboard and didn't know how to swim. The pastor watched as the man in the water kept struggling fighting the possibility that he might drown. The pastor waited and waited until the splashing stopped. It wasn't until everything was still that he dove in to rescue his friend.

The pastor who was hearing this story asked the story-telling pastor why he waited so long because the man might have drowned.

And he told his fellow pastor that had he not waited and jumped in right away to save him, they both would have drowned. In the struggle there's no way to save a flailing fear-driven person who's drowning.

I really liked that story......it describes us when we take our eyes off of Jesus and place them on our problem, our trial and or our suffering.

We start to flail in the water and Jesus can't do a thing with us until we go under for the 3rd time and stop with our fear-driven struggle.

God bless you!
 
May 12, 2017
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No. They say fruit bearing is not necessary to be saved and that only Gods kindness and faith are necessary for that. Once that is out of the way, they move on. But they are right to refuse to move on in discussion to further things if they think a man has not yet got it that his being forgiven is a done deal.
Yes they do say that....and they ALSO state what I said...a Christian can go their enter walk without producing fruit and its ok....first that is not true and second it proves, they have no knowledge of empowering grace....
 
Nov 12, 2015
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Psalm 25.2
[SUP]2 [/SUP]It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Psalm 25.14
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The secret of the Lord is for those who fear Him,
And He will make them know His covenant.

1 Cor 2.10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
There are some things about God that remain mysterious to me. I see in part. I've no desire to get into an argument over it. God seems deeply mysterious to me much of the time. If He does not mystify you in this way, it's okay.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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There are some things about God that remain mysterious to me. I see in part. I've no desire to get into an argument over it. God seems deeply mysterious to me much of the time. If He does not mystify you in this way, it's okay.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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Abraham had "imputed" righteousness because he believed God. Gen. 15:6 & Rom. 4:3 and 3:9

We because we have risen with Christ and are joined as one spirit with Him have "imparted" righteousness. We have the very righteousness of God because we are in Christ. Paul calls it the "gift of righteousness". Rom. 5:17

The understanding of the new creation in Christ and the new identity of the believer is paramount to living the true Christian life.


Here it says our spirit ( the inner person that is a new creation in Christ ) is alive because of righteousness that it is it.

Romans 8:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin,yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. \


Here righteousness is a gift - you don't earn it by what you do or don't do.

Romans 5:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

We have grace reigning in our lives because of righteousness in us.

Romans 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21[/SUP] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Here righteousness comes by faith just like the "imputed" righteousness came to Abraham before the cross and resurrection of the Lord.

Romans 9:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Here when we believe - we are righteousness.

Romans 10:10 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

We are in the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17[/SUP] For the kingdom of God ( Jesus said that the kingdom of God is within you..He might know a thing or two ) is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Here it says that God made us righteousness in Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:30 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This says we have become the righteousness of Christ ( this is called a dependent clause in the greek - it is determined as fulfilled because Christ became sin )

2 Corinthians 5:21 (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Believers are called righteousness
.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?


Here it is saying that "righteousness comes by Christ".

Galatians 2:21 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

Here we have the breastplate of righteousness - which is the armor of God that we are to be strong in.

Ephesians 6:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

This talks about the new man in Christ - the new creation.

Ephesians 4:24 (NASB)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
 
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Nov 12, 2015
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Yes they do say that....and they ALSO state what I said...a Christian can go their enter walk without producing fruit and its ok....first that is not true and second it proves, they have no knowledge of empowering grace....
You cannot take what one of them said in here and then claim they all believe or have said what the one person said.
This would be like me saying all black people like fried chicken or white men cant jump or all women are bad drivers. You can't take what one man in an entire group has said or done and state that it means they all believe it, say it and do it.
Heck, you can't even be sure the one person who said it hasn't changed their thought on it by now, after the discussion.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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We strive to grow and show our godliness, not to earn salvation.
 
May 12, 2017
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There are some things about God that remain mysterious to me. I see in part. I've no desire to get into an argument over it. God seems deeply mysterious to me much of the time. If He does not mystify you in this way, it's okay.
God only remains a mystery for those who do not fully trust him.....

For example:

God was mystery to The children of Israel....and he remained a mystery to them...they sacrificed the presence of God for the atmosphere of God, i.e, held their hand/religion


God was not a mystery to Moses and he spoke to him face to face as a man speaks to a friend, i.e. he had his presence/ relationship


many take his hand...when the Word says we should seek his face....

Psalm 105.4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Seek the Lord and His strength;
Seek His face continually.

Psalm 11.7
For the Lord is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.

and many, many more....
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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... the word propitiation .....
This reminds me of something my pastor once said while preaching, commenting on how propitiation is not a word we use very often, and I had to think to myself, gee, I use it a LOT :D
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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God only remains a mystery for those who do not fully trust him.....

For example:

God was mystery to The children of Israel....and he remained a mystery to them...they sacrificed the presence of God for the atmosphere of God, i.e, held their hand/religion

God was not a mystery to Moses and he spoke to him face to face as a man speaks to a friend, i.e. he had his presence/ relationship

many take his hand...when the Word says we should seek his face....

Psalm 105.4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Seek the Lord and His strength;
Seek His face continually.

Psalm 11.7
For the Lord is righteous, He loves righteousness; The upright will behold His face.

and many, many more....
Have you beheld the face of God? Were all His ways made known to you in that moment? Just curious :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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your first and most greivious error is the unbiblical concept known as payment for sin..Of a truth I tell you there is no payment for sin, for the wages of sin is death..The payment for sin myth was invented by the Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas, and then built upon by Luther, and Calvin some 300 years later....simple logic presupposes that if a debt is paid for, it cannot later be forgiven, nor can mercy be applied. Example: If someone pays off your credit card the bank cannot forgive your debt because there is no debt left to forgive. You will find this truth in the parable of the unforgiving servant....nobody paid for his sin debt it was all forgiven by the king, but he in turn could not forgive his own debtors, so the king revoked His forgiveness and cast that evil man into prison. sidenote: it doesn't sound like OSAS to me......Anyway what in fact happened, is that Jesus atoning works justified God's mercy, (it did not satisfy God's wrath). So, God the Father could now dispense the mercy that HE always desired to give through the covenant of reconciliation, whereby Jesus purchased our souls at Calvary with His blood.

Covenant theology has all but been forgotten in the annuls of human history over the last 500 years. This new covenant is what Hebrews 9 is all about. However, the payment for sin Penal Substitution myth has blinded the minds of 100s of millions looking for a flesh pleasing gospel that allows for the covenant to be broken, yet still enter into the kingdom. Turning the grace of God into lasciviousness but its still pie in the sky when you die in the sweet bye and bye...

Jesus finished the needful works of reconciliation through the conditions of God's new covenant, Heb. 9. Whereby man through repentance could now come to the mercy seat of God (Christ our propitiation), and be reconciled back to God's favour through the baptisms of repentance for the remission of past sins...Its not about accepting Jesus, but rather the commandment to repent and believe/obey the gospel from heart purity. In actuality its God who accepts use after we have come clean with Him by preparing our heart in repentance, and then gives the answer of the tongue if the guile has been removed, (the seed that falls on good soil).....The preparation of the heart belongs to man, and the answer of thee tongue is of God, Proverbs 16-1. ..................dig deep and be blessed in God's truth, not the old wine and tiresome traditions of men...
Your first and last error is to disregard the truth as much as you do while denying words such as propitiaition, imputed, justified, sealed etc....
 

Desertsrose

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2016
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Hi desertsrose, I apologize for speaking to strong about works salvation , please pardon my poor choice of words. Your statements are very nice and clear and thoughtful. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I must add more understanding and kindness to every subject of conversation here. Thank you.
Hi truthtalk,

Thank you for the apology. I'm also sorry I spoke a little firmly as well. I don't normally do that, but I think I'm getting tired of being judged, misrepresented or what have you.

I think that some people are so afraid of obedience, works, fruit and good deeds that they automatically bristle because they think you're speaking against God's grace.

And then there's those that speak so heavily of God's grace that it seems like they're leaving out works and the other side bristles.

Sometimes we can over emphasize one aspect of God's character so much so that it becomes lopsided. That's why I try to make sure others see both sides in here when I post, but even I fail at times to do that myself. Or the post that brings balance is pages past and so it's lost that I love both grace and works.......the God kind of grace and works. Not a hyper view or hypo view of either.

I think that this thread is part of the reason why the divide is here. It's the us (grace) against the those (works) because of the OP.

But I think that many here have calmed down a lot and are seeing both sides and are really trying to understand how grace and works work together in God's economy.

There will be those that are lopsided on the grace side and on the works side of the topic at hand, but it looks like there is a coming together of many in here that are trying to really understand what others are saying without all the judging. *Praising God for that!*

Thanks again truthtalk! I look forward to future interactions with you as we all learn to grow in the true knowledge of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior. God bless you! :)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I have not talked about salvation in the last few hours....this is all about spiritual growth....
That was not aimed at you... spiritual growth... putting on the new man... :)
 
Dec 12, 2013
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it is finished.

1. What was the cross for? The payment of sin,

2. What did Jesus came to do? Fulfill the law

3. What did God need to do to restor mankind to himself and bring him back into a relationship?


It is finished. Accomplished all of those things,


i know, you like many others think we have our part to do, that Jesus did not pay for all sin, we have to pay for our own, well when you see Jesus, you can explain to him why you "deserve" to be let into heaven. But don't look for me, I will already be there, why? Jesus answered the question. "It is finished". (Also it is a Greek judicial statement, tetelesti meant "paid in full" and was wore by people who broke the law and their sin debt. Was paid for. "It is finished"

i can walk with God, grow with God, learn to become Christlike and run the race with Paul and all of Gods other children, why? It is finished.



What it does not mean? "I did my part, now you do yours!"

He don't believe Jesus paid our sin debt, nor does he believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ...BOTH PARAMOUNT to biblical salvation......speaks volumes hey....