Not By Works
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Hmm...I find I must believe someone is telling the truth to me before I can trust them. Although I don't have such a division between the words as you do. They are necessary to remain together for me. If I have faith in you, it means I trust you. If I trust you, it means I have faith in you. If I do not trust you, I don't have faith in you. If I don't have faith in you, I don't trust you.
I am trying to figure out why it is necessary to say faith in someone and trust in someone are two different things...
I am trying to figure out why it is necessary to say faith in someone and trust in someone are two different things...
Hi
Not fully sure what you are saying here.
I thought salvation and being born again are of the same, a one time event.
Learning to walk and become mature is sanctification.
Sometimes I think of it this way.
I have been adopted by God into his family.
If I have been adopted that means I belonged to a different family, or am an orphan.
Having been adopted by God then he is now my Father.
Yet I bring with me the ways of my old family.
Now God teaches me new ways, a new way of living.
He is my dad and I'm his kid. That happened the minute saved me and pulled me out of my old family.
I thought salvation and being born again are of the same, a one time event.
Learning to walk and become mature is sanctification.
Sometimes I think of it this way.
I have been adopted by God into his family.
If I have been adopted that means I belonged to a different family, or am an orphan.
Having been adopted by God then he is now my Father.
Yet I bring with me the ways of my old family.
Now God teaches me new ways, a new way of living.
He is my dad and I'm his kid. That happened the minute saved me and pulled me out of my old family.
Makes total sense and I stand side by side with you.
Even in Jesus we can get it wrong and I'm sure this will raise a few heckles but we will get it wrong.
If we never got it wrong then there would have been no reason for Paul to write what he did.
But to me he is saying, build on the foundation of Christ, that should be your focus but if you get it wrong you are still saved.
I actually fell foul of this and I know of others who do but for a different reason than mine.
For me it was like work hard, do what you are told and if you work hard enough you are ok.
No one ever told me that Jesus was my foundation, so I built my own foundation which was me and hoped Jesus would cover that, notice I say hoped he would.
Thats what I consider works orientated gospel.
On the flip side I have know of people who go to the other extreme.
Use it as an excuse to cover sin.
Even in Jesus we can get it wrong and I'm sure this will raise a few heckles but we will get it wrong.
If we never got it wrong then there would have been no reason for Paul to write what he did.
But to me he is saying, build on the foundation of Christ, that should be your focus but if you get it wrong you are still saved.
I actually fell foul of this and I know of others who do but for a different reason than mine.
For me it was like work hard, do what you are told and if you work hard enough you are ok.
No one ever told me that Jesus was my foundation, so I built my own foundation which was me and hoped Jesus would cover that, notice I say hoped he would.
Thats what I consider works orientated gospel.
On the flip side I have know of people who go to the other extreme.
Use it as an excuse to cover sin.
Ah...I think there is a fracture here...
First, I don't WANT to judge anothers salvation. I hate it when I see it being done in here (from both "sides.")
But secondly, I know my brothers and sisters by their fruit. Yes, it is imperfect in many ways, but I can see it. A burst of true humility here or there, a meekness that is woeful when any offense has been taken, even if they really didn't mean it to be taken that way and didn't walk or talk in their flesh but out of love.
We can see when someone is walking in the Spirit, in truth, in honesty, in light. We catch glimpses of our Lord in them by their fruits. I especially like to see someone begin to really start trucking along in the Spirit, bearing offenses with grace, leaving off accusations and seeking peace, not reviling back when reviled. It's like watching a baby take it's first steps. And you fret when you see them take a tumble but then you cheer when they get back up and begin to glide along again man!
But if they try to teach others, we should judge whether they are trustworthy by their fruit. They should have that consistency of walking in the Spirit without leaving off. If they don't impress me with my seeing my Lord in them, I don't take much stock in what they say really.
I don't know of any other way to know if someone is my brother or a false teacher and professor other than by their fruit. Perfection? No. Some fruits of the Spirit? Yes. Otherwise, I would have to just assume that everyone in the world is walking in the Spirit with no way to know who walks with God and who doesn't. But it's said we will know them by their fruit. Judge their salvation? No, I refuse to. Judge whether they are walking in the Spirit/abiding and whether they are trustworthy to listen to? Yes.
First, I don't WANT to judge anothers salvation. I hate it when I see it being done in here (from both "sides.")
But secondly, I know my brothers and sisters by their fruit. Yes, it is imperfect in many ways, but I can see it. A burst of true humility here or there, a meekness that is woeful when any offense has been taken, even if they really didn't mean it to be taken that way and didn't walk or talk in their flesh but out of love.
We can see when someone is walking in the Spirit, in truth, in honesty, in light. We catch glimpses of our Lord in them by their fruits. I especially like to see someone begin to really start trucking along in the Spirit, bearing offenses with grace, leaving off accusations and seeking peace, not reviling back when reviled. It's like watching a baby take it's first steps. And you fret when you see them take a tumble but then you cheer when they get back up and begin to glide along again man!
But if they try to teach others, we should judge whether they are trustworthy by their fruit. They should have that consistency of walking in the Spirit without leaving off. If they don't impress me with my seeing my Lord in them, I don't take much stock in what they say really.
I don't know of any other way to know if someone is my brother or a false teacher and professor other than by their fruit. Perfection? No. Some fruits of the Spirit? Yes. Otherwise, I would have to just assume that everyone in the world is walking in the Spirit with no way to know who walks with God and who doesn't. But it's said we will know them by their fruit. Judge their salvation? No, I refuse to. Judge whether they are walking in the Spirit/abiding and whether they are trustworthy to listen to? Yes.
Even if we are a raisin on the vine Jesus Love's us, and He will reward us when the awards are given out. I'd rather be a raisin in God's family than a huge mango tree and not saved. 
Rev. 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
Rev. 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
I believe,If Holy Spirit in us, He couse us to love other, not because we able to love other with agape love, but He couse us to do so. Branch not able bear fruit of itself.
Fruit/ helping the poor is not product of us. But evident we have Holy Spirit in us.
ON the contrary, If a man confessing a Christian but not loving the poor, he ia liar and not chrostian and not save
He is not save not because salvation by work, but because he is not Christian
1 John 4:20
Fruit/ helping the poor is not product of us. But evident we have Holy Spirit in us.
ON the contrary, If a man confessing a Christian but not loving the poor, he ia liar and not chrostian and not save
He is not save not because salvation by work, but because he is not Christian
1 John 4:20
“If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?”
Romans 10.9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
we will be waiting for the usual backpedal snicker, snort you give or maybe shows us some integrity and provide a retraction of your statements...
[SUP]9 [/SUP]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
we will be waiting for the usual backpedal snicker, snort you give or maybe shows us some integrity and provide a retraction of your statements...
E
for me, it was always knowledge, learn all you can, and you will not sin. The only issue is it never worked, I still sinned, And of course, then the thing must be your not trusting God. if you did you would use the word and not sin.
Again that never worked.
What they forgot is all the rest, Prayer, Fellowship. Discipleship. Accountability partners. Serving and loving others And the most important. God loves you no matter what, He will remain faithful. and the many other things required for true sanctification (1st and formost. trusting that he who began a good work will complete it.)
That is what is missing in most traditional churches, they are all about the traditions and the things that do not work, and that's why so many non denominational churches are sprouting, because the status quo has lost its light, and is not working.
Again that never worked.
What they forgot is all the rest, Prayer, Fellowship. Discipleship. Accountability partners. Serving and loving others And the most important. God loves you no matter what, He will remain faithful. and the many other things required for true sanctification (1st and formost. trusting that he who began a good work will complete it.)
That is what is missing in most traditional churches, they are all about the traditions and the things that do not work, and that's why so many non denominational churches are sprouting, because the status quo has lost its light, and is not working.
E
I spoke of an event, not a lifestyle..
I can serve the poor and do it out of Gods love, I can also serve the poor and expect something in return. it does not mean I do not love the poor. it means in that moment, I chose to serve self and not the poor.
Now. In the example of someone serving to save himself. your right,, He is not saved, and he does not love the poor. he is doing it for self gain, in this case, the gain is eternal life.. To keep it, to earn it or to have it.. same difference.
U
If you mean trust as an act of faith, a singular event, than yes I agree, you are trusting the truth of what Jesus has done and said and that is saving faith/trust in the work of Christ.
Again this is separate from abiding in Christ, that is part of the dynamic relationship with Jesus after being saved.
We trust in what He says is true, from faith to faith, abiding in Him as a source of grace, love and peace.
Again this is separate from abiding in Christ, that is part of the dynamic relationship with Jesus after being saved.
We trust in what He says is true, from faith to faith, abiding in Him as a source of grace, love and peace.
E
Those people did not confess the lord. They professed their works.
Your continued attempts to try to discredit people just gets worse.
Jesus said he NEVER KNEW THEM, please do not try to tell us that a person can be saved, And God will say he NEVER knew them..
They also practiced unrighteousness, John says that he who does this has never seen God or known him. So those people also have never known God, if they did, they would not be trying to use their works to gain entrance into heaven, they would KNOW God woul not accept them as payment.
Your continued attempts to try to discredit people just gets worse.
Jesus said he NEVER KNEW THEM, please do not try to tell us that a person can be saved, And God will say he NEVER knew them..
They also practiced unrighteousness, John says that he who does this has never seen God or known him. So those people also have never known God, if they did, they would not be trying to use their works to gain entrance into heaven, they would KNOW God woul not accept them as payment.