Not By Works

[sevenseas]

Yup God is Just and Merciful and the cross proves it.

Well if we cannot understand Grace then all your talk of following Jesus is not possible,

Jesus is described as “the Word that “became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14)

over 25,000 posts prove, that no, Gentiles do not understand grace

that is because they think the law has disappeared...POOF....

why need any grace if the law has poofed?

the cross does not prove grace. that's christianese without depth of understanding

whose grace and truth is Jesus talking about and is He talking about the cross?

no He is not

 

[royalscot]

I have about 15 people in ignore so I don't know what post he was referring to. I guess it's mine.
Most of those people have never said a disparaging word to me, and in some sense it shows my immaturity, but it's either ignore, and just read the posts from those who in some way express 1 Corinthians 13, or quit CC. I JUST CANT stomach the snarkiness, abuse, and lack of love anymore.

It does make keeping up with this thread easier though!! Lol

who was appointed ,head of this body.

One Body with Many Members
12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body---Jews or Greeks, slaves or free---and all were made to drink of one Spirit.
14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many.15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," that would not make it any less a part of the body.17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell?18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.19 If all were a single member, where would the body be?20 As it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you," nor again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."22 On the contrary, the parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,23 and on those parts of the body that we think less honorable we bestow the greater honor, and our unpresentable parts are treated with greater modesty,24 which our more presentable parts do not require. But God has so composed the body, giving greater honor to the part that lacked it,25 that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.26 If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts.
And I will show you a still more excellent way.1 Corinthians 12:

 

[AllenW]

I have, And history has been proven in the past to be not reliable. Those in charge write history, who was in charge?

and yes, Everything that can be trusted is in the bible. (it is the only religable source and th eonly thing God will hold you accountable to.

If it does not line up with the bible. then it is of men, not God.

The catholic church looks nothing like the NT church, plain and simple. Study the bible. not the words of men.

Tell us, what churches today look like the New Testament church?

 

[sevenseas]

works are not required for salvation period. Only work that was required was the work of the cross.

A person is saved the moment God accepts their faith The moment they call out to God in repentance and true faith. Not when we think they are saved when they said some sinners prayer, when other people think they are save,d WHEN GOD SAYS THEY ARE SAVED because they HAVE TRUE SAVING FAITH

They are born again, They are adopted. they are given eternal life. They are justified, redeemed, their sins were atoned for. they are part of the family of God.

because of the above, they work.



Sorry, But if Eternal Security in Christ is not true, that says man must have his part in salvation, which means salvation can be lost if man does not do his part.

Thats works, and man can take credit or boast of his saving work..

We will never agree on this..

what does Jesus mean by take my yoke upon you and learn of me?

what does Jesus mean when He says PICK UP YOUR cross and follow me?

see how you post only what you want to believe?

YOU, do NOT know what works are or what part they play

you really should learn before you talk yourself out of believing

 

[AllenW]

It does kind of do that if you think about it real hard.

Why would someone want to think about it real hard?
Weird.....

 

[sevenseas]

Tell us, what churches today look like the New Testament church?

unless they are mostly Jewish converts to Jesus who actually KNOW exactly what part the law plays and what they have been freed from, probably not very many

and then again, an awful big part of the NT was written to correct wrong teaching

 

[AllenW]

I agree!!!

So why do OSAS believers Always say that if a person falls away it means they were never saved to begin with?

Isn't THIS judging?

No, it means they understand the Bible.

 

[sevenseas]

works are not required for salvation period

well you seem so convinced of that I would have thought you would move on

we know that and we agree with that

your foundation is going to be far bigger than whatever you might build upon it

 

[AllenW]

Is ralph God or something? You sure like to puff him up..

I know Ralph.
If you knew him, you'd understand.
Just ask Mr. Hart.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

no she is not doing that at all

you just do not understand what the New Testment teaches about works

actually, I have seen you accusing her, so are you both doing it?

and look, I'm not happy to say this, but you sound childish in your defense

please prove from scripture where Christians are not to do good works?

See

there is your problem. In trying to defend her, you have bought the same lie she is preaching.

Please show one post I have stated a child of God will not, or should not do works.

If you have been reading my posts. and understand what I teach, you would not have made such a huge mistake .

And PS. Yes she does teach works, She says works are required to MAINTAIN (keep) SALVATION, that is works..

can you please post FROM THE BIBLE, NT the passages pertaining to works?

they are there you know

Yep they are. I posted one this morning, Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but by Gods mercy he saved us.

That is not what Fran teaches, She teaches that it is by works of righteousness that Gods continues to save us. (maintains salvation)

How about eph 2: 8-10 We are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS, and in our new creation we do works.

How about Heb 11. Where all who had faith did works. as apposed to James 2 where people can claim to have faith all they want, but if they have no works, their faith is dead. (because true faith produces true works)

or Rom 4, were we are told that if we are saved by works, we have something to boast about. because salvation is a wage not a gift. But not before God. Just like Abraham, we have faith in God and it is accounted to us for righteousness.

Or how about romans 11, If it is by grace, it is not by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. And of course, the it is salvation. o

of course I have posted all of these passages to fran and others numerous times, But it does not help. and I can post many more..

no I won't lay off because I am not on

I judge what is taught because that is the territory to judge. you seem to be judging motive which is not your place or anyone's place unless someone is so far alt religious left, that they need a good rebuke

You need to figure out what is going on first. You seem to not even know what I believe, since you asked me to prove something I have never even stated is true.

I judge based on what is said, She says salvation is maintained by works. I judge by what she states.

frankly, though I don't think a rebuke on a forum means a whole lot or most of would be rebuked right out of here

you do not have a clue what 'I better'...that sounds like a threat.

if your going to rebuke someone, at least get your rebuke right and know what your rebuking.

 

[AllenW]

Thats too bad..

That means he is working to maintain his salvation also.. and rejecting the grace of God. which offers to save him.

Don't cross Ralph.
that is not a wise thing to do.

 

[sevenseas]

Is there a part your children play sister to BE YOUR children? Or are they YOUR children by birth?

children by birth are not adopted

yet even they need to be reborn

I don't think you have provided a good analogy or perhaps I need a better explanation of what point you are trying to make

 

[AllenW]

Ya know

She teaches must be done in order to maintain salvation. THATS WORKS. whether you like it or not.

As for accusing people. that is all she does 24/7, so lay off.. If your going to judge one, you better judge the other, otherwise your just a hypocrite.

That is not how Christians talk to one another.
Be a man.
Humble yourself before the Lord.

 

[UnderGrace]

The context is enduring under persecution, not enduring to gain eternal life.

I'm tired Grace.
But this is easy..

Context..

Mathew 24:13

Jesus was teaching His disciples about the end times.
Or was He teaching about the destruction of Jerusalem...
I could be both. He was teaching about Jerusalem 70 AD
AND the end of times.

Why?

Mathew 24:3
His disciples asked Jesus, privately, WHEN will be the sign of Your coming? and at the END OF THE AGE.

So. Was Jesus supposed to come back at the destruction of Jerusalem, OR at the end of the the world?
The "end of the age" could arguabley mean till 70 AD.

BUT, Jesus' coming back is DEFINITELY at the end of the world.

-----that takes care of the Jerusalem 70 AD problem-----


Mathew 24:4-8 are accepted as referring to the end of the world. This is repeated over and over again---"wars and rumors of wars" --- no one can deny that this refers to the end of the world.


Mathew 24:10
"At that time, many will fall away..."
FALL AWAY MEANS FALL AWAY, LEAVE, DEPART, NO LONGER BELONG TO...

and many false prophets will arise and lead many astray, they will MISLEAD them, as is happening, in fact.

NOW THIS IS FOR EVERYONE HERE RIGHT NOW.....

Mathew 24:12
"And because LAWLESSNESS is increased, most people's love will grow cold...

Mathew 24:13
"BUT THE ONE WHO ENDURES TILL THE END, HE SHALL BE SAVED."

Mathew 24:14
"And the gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in the Whole world for a witness to ALL NATIONS, and then THE END WILL COME."


Was the gospel preached to all nations in 70 AD? No.

Were the persons alive when Jesus was speaking still going to be alive in 70 AD? Maybe. Maybe not.

What must people endure?

That their LOVE not GROW COLD.

If a person's love grows cold, NO MATTER WHEN, he has NOT ENDURED TILL THE END.

The scenario was for 70 AD AND the end of the world.

The endurance of the person is for EVERYONE OF ANY AGE AND FOR ALL TIME.

Jesus was NOT just speaking about Jerusalem 70 AD.

This is used by those who wish to show that endurance is not necessary.
There are other verses but I must leave now.

ENDURE MEANS TO ENDURE.

I feel like I just wrote to Sevenseas about how words don't really mean what they mean. Strange.

 

[sevenseas]

See

there is your problem. In trying to defend her, you have bought the same lie she is preaching.

Please show one post I have stated a child of God will not, or should not do works.

If you have been reading my posts. and understand what I teach, you would not have made such a huge mistake .

And PS. Yes she does teach works, She says works are required to MAINTAIN (keep) SALVATION, that is works..



Yep they are. I posted one this morning, Not of works of righteousness which we have done, but by Gods mercy he saved us.

That is not what Fran teaches, She teaches that it is by works of righteousness that Gods continues to save us. (maintains salvation)

How about eph 2: 8-10 We are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS, and in our new creation we do works.

How about Heb 11. Where all who had faith did works. as apposed to James 2 where people can claim to have faith all they want, but if they have no works, their faith is dead. (because true faith produces true works)

or Rom 4, were we are told that if we are saved by works, we have something to boast about. because salvation is a wage not a gift. But not before God. Just like Abraham, we have faith in God and it is accounted to us for righteousness.

Or how about romans 11, If it is by grace, it is not by works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. And of course, the it is salvation. o

of course I have posted all of these passages to fran and others numerous times, But it does not help. and I can post many more..

You need to figure out what is going on first. You seem to not even know what I believe, since you asked me to prove something I have never even stated is true.

I judge based on what is said, She says salvation is maintained by works. I judge by what she states.


if your going to rebuke someone, at least get your rebuke right and know what your rebuking.

OK

to whom it may concern"

EG obviously wants, nay, NEEDS someone with which to argue the exact same things he has argued low these many days

I disengage myself as of right now, because, although I loved the merry-go-round as a child, you cannot compare those lovely inanimate and created horses, with something in a field covering its beauty because it just rolled in mud AFTER the bath you gave it

yes, there are most certainly spiritual principals in that comparison, so if you think you see one? you may just

and he is STILL typing your instead of you're.

some people go to a rave and some just rave on

neither one is a good thing

 

[stonesoffire]

You left out verse 48:

John 12:48 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

48 He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

Well, don't reject Him! And why would anyone unless they love the darkness rather than light. Am sure that one who is born from above will never be of that number. The deeds of light are just that. Of Light, God is Light!

Jesus did not come to judge the world now, but at the end of times THERE IS ONE WHO WILL JUDGE,
and the WORD Jesus spoke (the Word is His teachings) will be the judge at the last day.

I wont be at the Great White Throne Judgment Fran. Will you? He came to save, not judge by the way. The world spirit has already been judged, and all mankind found guilty. But, we have a Saviour who crushed the head (authority over) of the serpent, and He took back His own creation, declared us innocent through His death and resurrection, an ascended to Father in Victory for men, taking us with Him in spirit, and will be there at our passing.

Mankind needs to hear the gospel, that they are acceptable to approach Father now through His Son.....freely, without fear, then freely empowered by the grace of God in Holy Spirit, as HS works salvation in the body of Christ on earth.
This refers back to John 5:28-29

Also see John 14:21

P.S. I mean, do you actually think Jesus is saying not to obey Him and follow His words!!!
How easily you believe what sounds nice to you !![/QUOTE]

Why do you put your speculations of what I say on me?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

what does Jesus mean by take my yoke upon you and learn of me?

what does Jesus mean when He says PICK UP YOUR cross and follow me?

Does he say it to maintain salvation? So we can stay saved? So we can earn salvation?

No, He says it because it is what we must do if we want to grow in christ, and mature as children of God.

see how you post only what you want to believe?

What I want to believe? Can you show where I am in error? do you even know what I believe? so far I see no fruit that you even understand my theology. so we already have an issue when we discuss the word between us.

YOU, do NOT know what works are or what part they play

you really should learn before you talk yourself out of believing

Oh I don't?? LOLOLOL

I do know this. Works play no part in our eternal destiny, If you or anyone else says they do (like fran does) then you preach a different gospel.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have about 15 people in ignore so I don't know what post he was referring to. I guess it's mine.
Most of those people have never said a disparaging word to me, and in some sense it shows my immaturity, but it's either ignore, and just read the posts from those who in some way express 1 Corinthians 13, or quit CC. I JUST CANT stomach the snarkiness, abuse, and lack of love anymore.

It does make keeping up with this thread easier though!! Lol

I have a few there, Maybe I need to add a few more..

 

[AllenW]

I have about 15 people in ignore so I don't know what post he was referring to. I guess it's mine.
Most of those people have never said a disparaging word to me, and in some sense it shows my immaturity, but it's either ignore, and just read the posts from those who in some way express 1 Corinthians 13, or quit CC. I JUST CANT stomach the snarkiness, abuse, and lack of love anymore.

It does make keeping up with this thread easier though!! Lol

Come on Eddie, get those people off ignore and listen to what they have to say.
Maybe they are just misunderstand.
We need to help those poor understand privileged know-it-alls.

 

[UnderGrace]

The cross proves God's justice and mercy. I did not say grace.

Many, many people through the ages have come to know God's grace apart from the law...so I still do not understand what you are saying?

One must become a Jew before one can become a gentile believer?

over 25,000 posts prove, that no, Gentiles do not understand grace

that is because they think the law has disappeared...POOF....

why need any grace if the law has poofed?

the cross does not prove grace. that's christianese without depth of understanding

whose grace and truth is Jesus talking about and is He talking about the cross?

no He is not