The Rapture

[Locutus]

G'day.... that's not even funny man, you're starting to scare me now lol.

Revelation 6:14 KJV
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Heaven and earth passed on that verse, and as far as I can tell, that happened when the great day of his wrath came in AD 70. But no matter, because Matthew 5:18 doesn't say that the law is still in effect UNTIL all is fulfilled, it says that not one jot or title written in the law will not fail to be FULFILLED until heaven and earth pass.

Matthew 5:18 KJV
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus tells his hearers when all would be fulfilled:

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things that were written include the "jots and tittles"...

When Jesus speaks of the "heaven and earth" passing his hearers would not be thinking of the physical they would be understanding it in the religious sense - Josephus was a trained Pharisee if I remember rightly - this is what he wrote:

Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests.

However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.


Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus tells his hearers when all would be fulfilled:

Luke 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

All things that were written include the "jots and tittles"...

When Jesus speaks of the "heaven and earth" passing his hearers would not be thinking of the physical they would be understanding it in the religious sense - Josephus was a trained Pharisee if I remember rightly - this is what he wrote:

Antiquities Book 3 6:4

As for the inside, Moses parted its length into three partitions. At the distance of ten cubits from the most secret end, Moses placed four pillars, the workmanship of which was the very same with that of the rest; and they stood upon the like bases with them, each a small matter distant from his fellow.Now the room within those pillars was the most holy place; but the rest of the room was the tabernacle, which was open for the priests.

However, this proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests were not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits, is, as it were, sea and land, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only.

The proportion of the measures of the tabernacle seem to me to be the 10 commandments leading to salavation through the 4 gospel which allows us to come boldy before the throne of grace... Just a guess but I think that's pretty close to right.

One thing I know, the proportions of the tabernacle have nothing to do with the systems of the world.

Antiquities book 3 7:7

Now here one may wonder at the ill-will which men bear to us, and which they profess to bear on account of our despising that Deity which they pretend to honor; for if any one do but consider the fabric of the tabernacle, and take a view of the garments of the high priest, and of those vessels which we make use of in our sacred ministration, he will find that our legislator was a divine man, and that we are unjustly reproached by others; for if any one do without prejudice, and with judgment, look upon these things, he will find they were every one made in way of imitation and representation of the universe.

When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men.

My opinion, this guy was a Kabbalist. Just from the few things I've read about him, I don't think he knew the Lord.

 

[Locutus]

He wasn't a Christian and I don't think he was Kabbalist, regardless, that does not mean that he didn't understand the religious traditions and symbols that all of the Jews/Israelites were steeped in. Their life was based on the covenant.

It's hard for us Westerners to put ourselves in that kind of "mindset".

When I travelled to India years ago I was blown away how Hinduism was woven into the fabric of daily life.

 

[PlainWord]

Nothing you guys gave me was reasonable.... more Left Behind theology. And I thought you 2 were WAAAAAY beyond that.

Really?? Shame you can't see it. Pretty clear to me. Just as God lowered the Euphrates before to destroy Babylon, He did it again by drought to clear the path for the Romans to destroy Israel. Oh well, maybe you'll get it later.

 

[PlainWord]

"Pas ethnos" means all peoples, (i.e. People of every tribe, not just Israelites).

This clears any confusion. This is the final judgement, not God's judgement on apostate Jewry.

Which country had 12 tribes scattered over all the nations? These tribes would return to Jerusalem from all over (every country) to celebrate the important feasts like Passover, Tabernacles, and Unleavened Bread. Jerusalem's population would swell to three times normal during these periods. Amazing how God gathers all the bad eggs into one "judgment basket."

Just look at Acts 2: [SUP]5 [/SUP]And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

 

[PlainWord]

It was fulfilled at the resurrection of Christ.... that was the last day of the old covenant ended, the last day of the sun, moon and stars.

The verse you quoted actually says that not one jot or tittle will not be fulfilled UNTIL heaven and earth pass. It is NOT saying that the fulfillment of heaven and earth passing away is the last day.

When heaven and earth pass, all will be fulfilled.

Jesus was using reverse "creation imagery." "In the beginning God created" what? In the end, when He destroyed Israel, "heaven and earth" passed away.

In Genesis, the original sin caused what? Separation from God/heaven. So, when all things are restored (which Christ began on the Cross), that separation was erased clearing a path to heaven. But as I pointed out before from Acts 2-3, the Law had to end to complete the process. Paul spoke of the Law often, didn't he? If Christ ended the Law then there would be no need to discuss it anymore. But the Law was still active because there was a 40 year transition period between ages. The temple had to go to complete the process because the temple was the earthly "heaven", the "dwelling place of God." Get it? If not, let that sink in.

Peter quoted David in Acts 2, after Christ resurrected and ascended, David was still in Hades. He hadn't been freed yet. In Acts 3, the "restoration of all things" is mentioned in conjunction with the prophet sent in those last days, again a future event. The prophet I've identified as Jesus, Son of Ananius. You won't find his name in the Bible, but he was a big deal from 63-70 AD. He turned the city on its head.

 

[KJV1611]

Really?? Shame you can't see it. Pretty clear to me. Just as God lowered the Euphrates before to destroy Babylon, He did it again by drought to clear the path for the Romans to destroy Israel. Oh well, maybe you'll get it later.

Do you think 4 angels were bound in the literal Euphrates river?

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus was using reverse "creation imagery." "In the beginning God created" what? In the end, when He destroyed Israel, "heaven and earth" passed away.

In Genesis, the original sin caused what? Separation from God/heaven. So, when all things are restored (which Christ began on the Cross), that separation was erased clearing a path to heaven. But as I pointed out before from Acts 2-3, the Law had to end to complete the process. Paul spoke of the Law often, didn't he? If Christ ended the Law then there would be no need to discuss it anymore. But the Law was still active because there was a 40 year transition period between ages. The temple had to go to complete the process because the temple was the earthly "heaven", the "dwelling place of God." Get it? If not, let that sink in.

Peter quoted David in Acts 2, after Christ resurrected and ascended, David was still in Hades. He hadn't been freed yet. In Acts 3, the "restoration of all things" is mentioned in conjunction with the prophet sent in those last days, again a future event. The prophet I've identified as Jesus, Son of Ananius. You won't find his name in the Bible, but he was a big deal from 63-70 AD. He turned the city on its head.

Christ was the end of the law. The disciples weren't under the law, the law ended with Christ's sacrifice not 40 years later when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[PlainWord]

He wasn't a Christian and I don't think he was Kabbalist, regardless, that does not mean that he didn't understand the religious traditions and symbols that all of the Jews/Israelites were steeped in. Their life was based on the covenant.

It's hard for us Westerners to put ourselves in that kind of "mindset".

When I travelled to India years ago I was blown away how Hinduism was woven into the fabric of daily life.

Man, we have a lot in common. Here's me giving my one and only sermon in a tiny church in India in 2015. What an experience!! I'm the big white dude, case you couldn't tell. The translator, a friend of my wife's, hit me up to give a sermon without notice. I guess they do that. They think us westerners are smart or something.

 

[PlainWord]

Christ was the end of the law. The disciples weren't under the law, the law ended with Christ's sacrifice not 40 years later when Jerusalem was destroyed.

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Agreed, but the population was still under the wrong impression weren't they? God gave them 40 years to figure it out and when they didn't, He had to "amplify" the message. Do you think destroying their temple made them "get the message?"

Remember God gave them 40 years in the wilderness to "figure things out" too and to let all those who sinned against Him die off. Same thing here. I'm so blown away by the spectacular parallelisms.

 

[PlainWord]

Do you think 4 angels were bound in the literal Euphrates river?

No, of course not. But there were 4 angels. Why would I not believe that? I believe there was a severe drought lowering the river enough for them to cross.

 

[valiant]

Do you think 4 angels were bound in the literal Euphrates river?

Why not if God was at work? lol

 

[KJV1611]

Agreed, but the population was still under the wrong impression weren't they? God gave them 40 years to figure it out and when they didn't, He had to "amplify" the message. Do you think destroying their temple made them "get the message?"

Remember God gave them 40 years in the wilderness to "figure things out" too and to let all those who sinned against Him die off. Same thing here. I'm so blown away by the spectacular parallelisms.

No matter how many years they were given to change their postion, the law ended with death or resurrection of Christ... this is when the new heaven and new earth came. 40 years of extended grace did not extend the old covenant and it wasn't the time when the new heaven and new earth came.

 

[KJV1611]

No, of course not. But there were 4 angels. Why would I not believe that? I believe there was a severe drought lowering the river enough for them to cross.

My point is that literal rivers don't bind angels, the angels weren't in the literal Euphrates river, they were bound in the spiritual Euphrates.... the same spiritual Euphrates that dried up.

The book of Revelation IS NOT literal, the fires are not literal the sun and moon going dark are not literal. I think you agree with this so I don't understand why you would want to make the Euphrates a literal river.

 

[valiant]

No matter how many years they were given to change their postion, the law ended with death or resurrection of Christ... this is when the new heaven and new earth came. 40 years of extended grace did not extend the old covenant and it wasn't the time when the new heaven and new earth came.

The law didn't end. It was just recognised for what it is, a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, just as it always was. It also provided people with a guide as to how to live,

 

[KJV1611]

Why not if God was at work? lol

He could, but the book of Revelation is signified... it's written in symbols.

 

[KJV1611]

The law didn't end. It was just recognised for what it is, a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, just as it always was. It also provided people with a guide as to how to live,

Right, for people to be lead to Christ. Christ was the end of the law for Christians.

Romans 10:4 KJV
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

 

[VCO]

We are discussing ancient history here. I know, its very serious business for you because you think nothing has happened yet. But for me, we are talking about events older than Pompeii getting destroyed by Vesuvius. You really need to take a chill pill and relax a little. There are no scorpion locusts on the horizon, trust me.

Let me get you mind out of the ancient past for a couple minutes.


WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND ENTERNITY IN THE FUTURE?

HOW AND WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THERE?

CAN YOU POINT TO ANY VERSES IN THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT ANY FUTURE BELIEFS YOU MAY HAVE?

ONE Question about the Past.

DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE BIBLICAL FLOOD OF NOAH?

 

[valiant]

Let me get you mind out of the ancient past for a couple minutes.


WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO SPEND ENTERNITY IN THE FUTURE?

HOW AND WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO GET THERE?

CAN YOU POINT TO ANY VERSES IN THE BIBLE TO SUPPORT ANY FUTURE BELIEFS YOU MAY HAVE?

But that does not prove that all is in the future.

 

[MattforJesus]

My point is that literal rivers don't bind angels, the angels weren't in the literal Euphrates river, they were bound in the spiritual Euphrates.... the same spiritual Euphrates that dried up.

The book of Revelation IS NOT literal, the fires are not literal the sun and moon going dark are not literal. I think you agree with this so I don't understand why you would want to make the Euphrates a literal river.

Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
Rev 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Rev 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt(nuclear weapons).
Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

The Roman Empire does not lose their dominion until God puts them down,and at the end time,the world will be split in to ten sections with a leader in each section,the ten horns,and the man of sin will come from them.

The 4th kingdom,the ten horns,shall devour the whole earth,tread it down,and break it in pieces,and the beast has power over all nations,and kindreds,and tongues,which could of not happened in the past,especially not in the first century.

The little horn will pluck up 3 of those 10 horns by the roots,which nuclear weapons could do it.

I believe the 6th trumpet is the religion of Islam and the world clashing,and the man of sin uses nuclear weapons against the Islamic nations,which is what he wants for they have a concept of a personal God.

After the 6th trumpet the world will not repent of their sins,and turn to God,so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them to deceive all people who do not love God.