Not By Works

[FranC]

Loved reading your post SOF ...I don`t know much about the Sabbath from the OT but i do know what it means in the NT...I was mentally sick for many years, and once i was saved, i rested in my Lord everyday...I was to sick to go out in the world, i found it very hard to be around people, i was a total hermit, the only people i saw were my children and psychiatrist...After i remained in bed for a year, apart from getting up to the things we do, i fell into my new Bible and got drenched in the Word of God...From that year in bed i cried to Him daily, He taught me what it meant to be saved, He told me how much He loved me, He gave me His promises that He would heal me, today i still do many things from my bed but i am alive, He gave every day to me as His day of rest, and through that rest He built me up in His strength, He has not told me in anyway that i must choice a day, He has told me that He alone is my rest untill the day He calls me home \o/...xox...

 

[PHart]

So do we as well

Yeah, I suppose you do, lol!

 

[mailmandan]

I showed you in context right in Hebrews 10 where it says 'sanctified' means saved. Here it is again:

10By this will (the New Covenant) we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

So it's very clear that the author is referring to saints perfected in Christ when he speaks of the wrath of God they will have along with the enemies of God (not the discipline of the sons of God) if they turn away from Christ in unbelief:

29How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

Nice try, yet in regards to Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). Your argument creates a contradiction with Hebrews 10:26 and 1 John 3:9.

Also, notice in Hebrews 10:14 - by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Another contradiction if those Hebrews in verse 29 were saved.

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the contrast that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

*So after considering the context, it seems most likely that "he was sanctified" should be understood in the sense of someone who had been "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of Hebrew believers, yet renounced their identification with other believers, by rejecting the "knowledge of the truth" that he had received, and by repudiating the work and the person of Christ himself, demonstrating their identification with the Christian community of Hebrew believers was only superficial and they were not a genuine believers.

Why is it so important for you to believe that genuine born again Christians will be cast into hell? Does it make you feel good to believe that Christ only "initially" saved you but now it's up to you to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps and keep yourself saved? Are you looking for credit? Do you believe that God preserves His saints forever or only temporarily? (Psalms 37:28)

Right, sanctified doesn't mean saved. The context determines if sanctified means made clean unto salvation in any one particular use of the word.

At least you acknowledge that much.

 

[FranC]

I see just fine. you do not have to 100% agree with anyone to respect them as a solid believer. grace7 gets a lot of abuse by the works crowd because he constantly blows up their junk.

Works are junk.
Good deeds are junk.
Obeying God is junk.
Asking forgiveness is junk.

Junk is when the New Testament is read and one comes away believing they have nothing to do but BELIEVE.
Too bad they don't know enough Greek to understand what BELIEVE means.

Junk is when Jesus speaks and some here DON'T LISTEN to what HE is saying because they don't LIKE what HE is saying.

I've asked for scripture MANY TIMES but have never received ONE, where JESUS says to ONLY BELIEVE IN HIM and do nothing else.

As if BELIEVE did not lead to good deeds.
As if good deeds are bad.

Isaiah 5:20

"WOE TO THEM THAT CALL EVIL GOOD
AND GOOD EVIL..."

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

If this is where Jesus rebuked them for continuing in sin, it was because they had more blessings and knowledge than the others, and to whomsoever much is given much is required...also, maybe I'm assuming a different passage that you meant.....be blessed...

Ah, no. It's an OT verse from one of the prophets. I was stunned when I first read it. I think its Ezekiel.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I see that you are still under the Law in the OT. So everyone who does observe the Saturday Sabbath under the OT Law with all it's rules and regulations is an unbeliever? Your true colors are really showing. Genuine believers do not twist the Word of God and try to keep people under the Law. Genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ (and not the Law) as the means of their salvation. I went to the website in your post "The BeastsMark is Coming! and it sounds so familiar.

Now mailmandan,

Seems like you are just making up stuff now. I have never said to anyone nor do I believe we are saved by keeping God's Law. Do you know what it means to be "Under the Law"? Here is a hint (Rom 2:12-13; Rom 3:19; Rom 3:9). You need to study your bible. If you are just making up stuff and do not "Believe" Gods Word then you are an Unbeliever and unbelievers have no part in the kingdom of God. We must believe God's Word over the teachings and traditions of man. To the law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no truth in them (Isa 8:20)

 

[BillG]

Yeah, I suppose you do, lol!

I have to drive an automatic these days due to arthritis of my knees

 

[mailmandan]

Stephen is right MMD.

Here's what you had written:

In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Amen!

Without even mentioning what Paul was speaking of in the verses just before
(Hebrews 10:36 --- the need for endurance so that WHEN WE HAVE DONE THE WILL OF GOD, we will receive what was promised)

What is the will of God in receiving salvation? See John 6:40. Does drawing back to perdition sound like endurance to you? What all was promised?

It's sufficient to ask:

If one is drawing back...
What is he drawing back from...?

The knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26). The knowledge was not defective, but the application of the knowledge was flawed. There was no heart submission to the knowledge.

They Drew back to PERDITION.

And DID NOT believe to the saving of the soul.

So, they were saved,
They Drew back to perdition,
They became unsaved.

It doesn't say they were "saved" and became "unsaved." That is your personal biased commentary.

Easy. No commentary necessary if we just read the bible plainly.

Your personal commentary is not necessary if you properly harmonize scripture with scripture, but that's not easy for those who prefer to accommodate their biased doctrine.

 

[FranC]

[FONT=&]Now mailmandan,

Seems like you are just making up stuff now. I have never said to anyone nor do I believe [/FONT]we are saved by keeping God's Law. Do you know what it means to be "Under the Law"? Here is a hint (Rom 2:12-13;[FONT=&] Rom 3:19[/FONT][FONT=&]; Rom 3:9). You need to study your bible. If you are just making up stuff and do not "Believe" Gods Word then you are an Unbeliever and unbelievers have no part in the kingdom of God. [/FONT][FONT=&]We must believe God's Word over the teachings and traditions of man.[/FONT][FONT=&] To the law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no truth in them (Isa 8:20)



[/FONT]

No one in this thread is "under the Law".
The Law died when Jesus was resurrected and the New Testament came into force.
Also known as the New Covenant.

It's an accusatory term meant for those who do not agree with some here.
It's an accusatory term for those who wish to obey God, however they see fit to obey Him.

I for one will not be intimidated by anyone who says that good deeds are a bad doctrine and that I "don't understand" the New Covenant because I feel good deeds are necessary.

Why are they necessary? Because I belong to the Kingdom of God and His regulations must be met.
NOT BECAUSE I'M UNDER THE LAW.
But simply because I'M IN THE KINGDOM.

It's not an affront to God to "add" works to salvation, but it's an affront to tell GOD that one wants to be in the Kingdom,
but will NOT follow Kingdom rules.

Imagine telling your earthly father that you are NOT going to mow the lawn or take the garbage out because he loves you too much and obeying him would be an insult to him!!!

Now imagine telling ALMIGHTY GOD THE SAME THING.

 

[mailmandan]

Now mailmandan,

Seems like you are just making up stuff now. I have never said to anyone nor do I believe we are saved by keeping God's Law. Do you know what it means to be "Under the Law"? Here is a hint (Rom 2:12-13; Rom 3:19; Rom 3:9). You need to study your bible. If you are just making up stuff and do not "Believe" Gods Word then you are an Unbeliever and unbelievers have no part in the kingdom of God. We must believe God's Word over the teachings and traditions of man. To the law and the testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because there is no truth in them (Isa 8:20)

So why don't you clearly spell out EXACTLY what you believe in regards to how man is saved? All you talk about is the 10 commandments and keeping the Sabbath day on Saturday and accuse others of teaching traditions of man over the Word of God. What am I supposed to believe?

I have studied my Bible, thank you. I'm not making stuff up and I can assure you that I'm not an unbeliever who trusts in works for salvation and prefers the traditions of man over the Word of God. I trust in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of my salvation (John 3:18; Romans 1:16; 3:24-26; Ephesians 2:8,9). Can you say the same?

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT answer?

 

[gb9]

Works are junk.
Good deeds are junk.
Obeying God is junk.
Asking forgiveness is junk.

Junk is when the New Testament is read and one comes away believing they have nothing to do but BELIEVE.
Too bad they don't know enough Greek to understand what BELIEVE means.

Junk is when Jesus speaks and some here DON'T LISTEN to what HE is saying because they don't LIKE what HE is saying.

I've asked for scripture MANY TIMES but have never received ONE, where JESUS says to ONLY BELIEVE IN HIM and do nothing else.

As if BELIEVE did not lead to good deeds.
As if good deeds are bad.

Isaiah 5:20

"WOE TO THEM THAT CALL EVIL GOOD
AND GOOD EVIL..."

I am not calling good works junk. I am calling trusting in works in any way for salvation junk, because it is. you quoted Isaiah- who also said " all of our righteousness is like filthy rags". but, since you selectively read, and don't use context, you might have missed that part......

 

[NoNameMcgee]

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right now and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your EXACT answer?

ohhh that question is deep....

made my heart beat faster just reading it....

 

[FranC]

I am not calling good works junk. I am calling trusting in works in any way for salvation junk, because it is. you quoted Isaiah- who also said " all of our righteousness is like filthy rags". but, since you selectively read, and don't use context, you might have missed that part......

Are you righteous of yourself and your own works?
No.

Then what makes you think anybody else here is?

Do you belong to some kind of Christianity that no one else knows about?

A little humility would do you good.

 

[FranC]

ohhh that question is deep....

made my heart beat faster just reading it....

It's not so deep NNM.

Maybe to a new Christian is might be.

But we older Christians should know better.
Read John 5:28-29 and then let me know what you think about it.

Not to take any joy away from you..
You go on as you are -- you're only in your twenties.

Those here that are a bit older and have been studying the word for much much longer
should know better.

But, somehow, their growth has been stunted.

Perhaps thourgh fear of the truth?
I certainly don't know why.

Oh. And what is the truth?
Stone said it's a person.

And right she is.

So what did THAT PERSON teach is the truth?

 

[mailmandan]

Read John 5:28-29 and then let me know what you think about it.

John 5:29 - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, (descriptive of believers) and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (descriptive of unbelievers).

We must not confuse "descriptive" passages of scripture (John 5:28-29) with "prescriptive" passages of scripture (John 3:15,16,18; 6:40,47; 11:25,26 etc..).

 

[sevenseas]

I see just fine. you do not have to 100% agree with anyone to respect them as a solid believer. grace7 gets a lot of abuse by the works crowd because he constantly blows up their junk.

ok

I will respond anyway

he gets alot of abuse?

you know the thread at the top of the BDF? the one that says not to write about hyper grace? it's there because of him

he would not quit...for over a year always the same topic and on and on and on till finally, after many many complaints from other forum users regarding him, the mods said NO MORE

people forget that. when someone rags on and on and just won't quit, that, my friend, is their own estimation of themselves

I don't know about you, but I've had plenty of disagreements with folks here. they say something, I say something, but we don't keep it up from day to day until the mods have to step in

it's all in records of the forum. you or anyone can go back and see what happened. he was steaming mad but had to stop his constant posting about hyper grace

I used to think there was no hyper grace, only grace. however, I have come to see there actually is something called hyper grace and it is harmful to anyone who gets involved in it


he makes sure to twist what people say and when you call him on it, he backs down and says you misunderstood

then, as he has done with me several times, if you are a woman, he calls you 'beloved sister'..I'm not his beloved sister or anything close. we have nothing in common and do not believe the same. he is very good at flattery

why on earth do you think you have to defend him? you remind me of the woman who recently said everyone was jealous of him

this is a forum

he is not a teacher. he parrots what he reads on the sites he goes to. what you are calling the works crowd is nonsense because, as so many others on here do, you cannot wait to respond instead of actually UNDERSTANDING

he caught on to the forumula of posting UNRELATED scriptures to make his point and some people swoon and think he knows scripture because they DO NOT KNOW scripture

now dude it really is enough. he can defend himself, which he does constantly by saying those who disagree with him are either works salvationists (there may be a few here, but most on this thread are certainly not) or he will say they are Sabbath keepers or full of malice or slanderers if someone posts something about one of his favorite false teachers

send him a box of chocolates and some flowers

 

[FranC]

Amen!

What is the will of God in receiving salvation? See John 6:40. Does drawing back to perdition sound like endurance to you? What all was promised?

I checked out John 6:40.
Thanks for bringing it up.
It says that the WILL of the Father is that everyone who BEHOLDS the Son and BELIEVES in HIM, may have eternal life.

1. The WILL of the Father is not Always what happens, is it?

1 Timothy 2:4 New International Version (NIV)

4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So, God wants, or wills, or desires, ALL MEN to be saved. Are they? NO. Because man must respond.
It is the will of God, or His desire, that everyone who beholds may believe in Jesus, but not all will.

2. In John 6:40 why is there a distinction made between BEHOLDING JESUS and BELIEVEING JESUS.
One could behold, or see Jesus, BUT NOT BELIEVE IN HIM.
Only those who BELIEVE in JESUS will have eternal life.

Since you're such an expert in Greek (really) I suppose you know what BELIEVE means; although I see that you hate to post it because it would not be of any help to you since BELIEVE and OBEY in the Greek is the same idea. Even the words are closely related. And, Heaven forbid, we should actually say that God WANTS to be obeyed. No, let's say we obey Him because we love Him --- sounds much sweeter, doesn't it. The truth is that God WANTS us to obey Him -- that's what BELIEVE in Him means, after all.

So... The pomise is valid, for as long as you BELIEVE.


The knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:26). The knowledge was not defective, but the application of the knowledge was flawed. There was no heart submission to the knowledge.

And DID NOT believe to the saving of the soul.


Hebrews 10:26 New International Version (NIV)

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,

I certainly hope you know that Hebrews was written to Jewish believers.
So Paul is speaking to believers in that verse.
IF BELIEVERS keep on deliberately sinning AFTER having received KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH there is no sacrifice left.
Do UNBELIEVES need sacrifice? No. They need to believe first. And THEN the sacrifice of Jesus is applied to them.

BTW, in GREEK Know and Knowledge is rather intimate. So your saying that the knowledge was not properly applied is rather incorrect. If they KNEW, they KNEW.

Why should we believe YOU when you say there was no heart submission?
How do YOU know their heart?
Those who are hyper gracers seem to know the heart condition of EVERYONE!!


It doesn't say they were "saved" and became "unsaved." That is your personal biased commentary.

Your personal commentary is not necessary if you properly harmonize scripture with scripture, but that's not easy for those who prefer to accommodate their biased doctrine.

Ditto to you.

.............................................................................

 

[sevenseas]

Works are junk.
Good deeds are junk.
Obeying God is junk.
Asking forgiveness is junk.

Junk is when the New Testament is read and one comes away believing they have nothing to do but BELIEVE.
Too bad they don't know enough Greek to understand what BELIEVE means.

Junk is when Jesus speaks and some here DON'T LISTEN to what HE is saying because they don't LIKE what HE is saying.

I've asked for scripture MANY TIMES but have never received ONE, where JESUS says to ONLY BELIEVE IN HIM and do nothing else.

As if BELIEVE did not lead to good deeds.
As if good deeds are bad.

Isaiah 5:20

"WOE TO THEM THAT CALL EVIL GOOD
AND GOOD EVIL..."

yup

you called it

lately, we have heard from the same one, that the Lord's prayer should not be repeated blah blah blah, yet Jesus never said say this 3x's and be forgiven. the instructions on why this is a big no no, came from a NAR teacher and I have it book marked

and of course, we have also been enlightened by the same person, that all of Jesus's words do not apply because Jesus was under the law

when a person uses expressions like that, it is obvious they don't know what they mean

it's unbelievable that anyone thinks that Jesus words fit into 2 categories. some we pay attention to and others just toss

YOU CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP!!!

 

[sevenseas]

No one in this thread is "under the Law".
The Law died when Jesus was resurrected and the New Testament came into force.
Also known as the New Covenant.

It's an accusatory term meant for those who do not agree with some here.

It's an accusatory term for those who wish to obey God, however they see fit to obey Him.

I for one will not be intimidated by anyone who says that good deeds are a bad doctrine and that I "don't understand" the New Covenant because I feel good deeds are necessary.

Why are they necessary? Because I belong to the Kingdom of God and His regulations must be met.
NOT BECAUSE I'M UNDER THE LAW.
But simply because I'M IN THE KINGDOM.

It's not an affront to God to "add" works to salvation, but it's an affront to tell GOD that one wants to be in the Kingdom,
but will NOT follow Kingdom rules.

Imagine telling your earthly father that you are NOT going to mow the lawn or take the garbage out because he loves you too much and obeying him would be an insult to him!!!

Now imagine telling ALMIGHTY GOD THE SAME THING.

you have just summed up the entire premise from which they swing from the trees

only most do not accuse those who disagree, of malice, slander and being unsaved

those 2 who actually do that, are both under the umbrella of NAR and WOF teachings which explains their attacks.

 

[Rosemaryx]

It's not so deep NNM.

Maybe to a new Christian is might be.

But we older Christians should know better.
Read John 5:28-29 and then let me know what you think about it.

Not to take any joy away from you..
You go on as you are -- you're only in your twenties.

Those here that are a bit older and have been studying the word for much much longer
should know better.

But, somehow, their growth has been stunted.

Perhaps thourgh fear of the truth?
I certainly don't know why.

Oh. And what is the truth?
Stone said it's a person.

And right she is.

So what did THAT PERSON teach is the truth?

John 5:28-29...Do not be surprised and wonder at this, for the time is coming when all those who are in the tombs shall hear His voice.29 And they shall come out-those who have ​practiced doing good, to the resurrection of life, and those that have done evil will be raised to meet their sentence... I am a baby growing in Christ, and this Scripture says to me as i read it that our good (works deeds ) are something that will be accounted for, if not, why would Jesus say this...I must state that I DO NOT BELIEVE MY OWN WORKS SAVE MEbut i do believe that that when the Holy Spirit promps us to do good deeds, we must obey Him, or else we are living in obedience, forgive me if i am wrong but that`s what i see, if we ignore the prompting of the Holy Spirit then we are ignoring Him full stop...xox...