Evening
The fact is that both sides of the argument here, hopefully will have taken time to study enough to be comfortable in what is is they believe, rather than believe what they have been told. To be Bereans as such.
Lets be honest the apostles had disagreements and I am sure they would have argued about it.
I just want to say what my thoughts on the following you said
If I have read it correctly to be honest I am not sure I agree with you. If I have read it incorrectly then please correct (in love of course
)
One must determine as to what abide means and its requirements.
John 15:3-6
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we have been made clean by the word, we could say that word is Jesus.
Its apparent we cannot we cannot bear fruit unless we are in/attached to the vine.
As we abide we bear fruit and continue to bear fruit.
Without Jesus we can do nothing.
What worries me is that people are quick to judge when a person is no longer in the vine.
At what point does someone come to that conclusion and why?
Some say they reject Jesus after accepting him and therefore were not really saved to begin with and then we have the reverse.
Some say it's because they don't crucify the vile sins of the flesh whilst some say works keep us saved and some say works show we are saved. Works that keep us saved needs to be quantified to extent of those works and at what level to maintain salvation.
Whilst the reverse may be that we do not need to do works.
With regards to this I actually think that both sides do believe that something has to change and happen in when we have placed faith in Jesus.
I myself am not works keep us saved but works will follow, because we cannot do the works Jesus requires unless we abide in him. NOW THAT BEING THE CASE I just want to give my thoughts with regards to "I can't make you stand firm if you won't to stand firm"
That is totally true. God cannot and will not overide our will. If we don't want to stand firm he says "Ok your choice but you will suffer the consequences" That doesn't necessarily mean they have cut themselves off, they could be just be in a place where they can't come to trust God.
However if a person is not standing firm that does not mean they have severed themselves from the vine.
If a person is truly in the vine and yet is struggling then they will do as this man did
Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
As I said if I have miss interpreted please correct me.
Bill
The fact is that both sides of the argument here, hopefully will have taken time to study enough to be comfortable in what is is they believe, rather than believe what they have been told. To be Bereans as such.
Lets be honest the apostles had disagreements and I am sure they would have argued about it.
I just want to say what my thoughts on the following you said
If I have read it correctly to be honest I am not sure I agree with you. If I have read it incorrectly then please correct (in love of course
)One must determine as to what abide means and its requirements.
John 15:3-6
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we have been made clean by the word, we could say that word is Jesus.
Its apparent we cannot we cannot bear fruit unless we are in/attached to the vine.
As we abide we bear fruit and continue to bear fruit.
Without Jesus we can do nothing.
What worries me is that people are quick to judge when a person is no longer in the vine.
At what point does someone come to that conclusion and why?
Some say they reject Jesus after accepting him and therefore were not really saved to begin with and then we have the reverse.
Some say it's because they don't crucify the vile sins of the flesh whilst some say works keep us saved and some say works show we are saved. Works that keep us saved needs to be quantified to extent of those works and at what level to maintain salvation.
Whilst the reverse may be that we do not need to do works.
With regards to this I actually think that both sides do believe that something has to change and happen in when we have placed faith in Jesus.
I myself am not works keep us saved but works will follow, because we cannot do the works Jesus requires unless we abide in him. NOW THAT BEING THE CASE I just want to give my thoughts with regards to "I can't make you stand firm if you won't to stand firm"
That is totally true. God cannot and will not overide our will. If we don't want to stand firm he says "Ok your choice but you will suffer the consequences" That doesn't necessarily mean they have cut themselves off, they could be just be in a place where they can't come to trust God.
However if a person is not standing firm that does not mean they have severed themselves from the vine.
If a person is truly in the vine and yet is struggling then they will do as this man did
Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
As I said if I have miss interpreted please correct me.
Bill
