Not By Works
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Now your getting it 
God bless
God bless
You think now? 1972 born again, baptized in Holy Spirit. Goal? Fullness or tabernacles. None of which I can boast of my good doings. Believing leads to the gift of faith, and faith is what pleases our Father God more than any actions of obedience towards law.
Faith in the sacrifice Father gave of His very beloved Son.
God bless LGF. Have you received the baptism of Holy Spirit since you believed?
No need for reply.later
I don't know...parents who are believers discover that their children bonk someone elses kid and take their toy from them just as unbelieving parents discover. I think it's inborn. It says: and then Adam had another child, in his own likeness...this was after the fall. So since he died on the day he ate the fruit, could he bring forth the living?
How do we know God and what is purity?
Because we are born in love, having love reaching out to our parents.
It is the betrayal of this love that causes us to sin and shut ourselves down and is the God
shaped gap in our lives that God can fill.
Pauls writing about children born to believing parents, being regarded as holy ie. not doomed
to hell if they die.
In Pauls day and most of christian history out of 6 children only 2 survived to adult hood.
I do not know Gods actual judgments, but you need a theology of innocense before the age
of understanding, else one is saying children who die before coming to faith are lost and doomed
to hell. In this scenario why have kids. So you can see the idea of baptism and being accepted
into the church as a baby becomes a very important idea.
From my perspective, I trust God and His love. I have not resolved this issue in my mind, but it
is important.
If a child of believing parents grows up and rejects the faith, they have left the covenant relationship,
and are cast adrift, like the prodigal son.
If you believe salvation can never be lost, then if you accept children are automatically Holy and
saved, then being born into a believing family would mean all descendants are chosen forever,
which denies the fundamentals of the faith.
So again, I would conclude, faith can be lost, and those who do not believe so have to explain how
children born into believing families are doomed to hell which Paul seems to implying is not true.
Because we are born in love, having love reaching out to our parents.
It is the betrayal of this love that causes us to sin and shut ourselves down and is the God
shaped gap in our lives that God can fill.
Pauls writing about children born to believing parents, being regarded as holy ie. not doomed
to hell if they die.
In Pauls day and most of christian history out of 6 children only 2 survived to adult hood.
I do not know Gods actual judgments, but you need a theology of innocense before the age
of understanding, else one is saying children who die before coming to faith are lost and doomed
to hell. In this scenario why have kids. So you can see the idea of baptism and being accepted
into the church as a baby becomes a very important idea.
From my perspective, I trust God and His love. I have not resolved this issue in my mind, but it
is important.
If a child of believing parents grows up and rejects the faith, they have left the covenant relationship,
and are cast adrift, like the prodigal son.
If you believe salvation can never be lost, then if you accept children are automatically Holy and
saved, then being born into a believing family would mean all descendants are chosen forever,
which denies the fundamentals of the faith.
So again, I would conclude, faith can be lost, and those who do not believe so have to explain how
children born into believing families are doomed to hell which Paul seems to implying is not true.
Not sure on this...I think no.
He made Adam and Eve to bring forth of their own kind. They could bring forth a breathing being just as an animal could. But they died spiritually on the day they ate. So they couldn't birth a spirit could they...? If they had kids before the fall I think they could have, because "of their own kind" would be spirit and body.
He made Adam and Eve to bring forth of their own kind. They could bring forth a breathing being just as an animal could. But they died spiritually on the day they ate. So they couldn't birth a spirit could they...? If they had kids before the fall I think they could have, because "of their own kind" would be spirit and body.
Hi Chris,
Here's why there's no consensus and why I have to leave every now and then because this just goes on and on.
We are all agreed that no one is saved by their own works.
Works are meaningless to God.
We are saved by His grace alone when we come to realize that there is a God and just maybe we'd like to get to know Him.
So by faith, we accept God, we accept Jesus, we accept the Holy Spirit.
We are grateful to Jesus for what He did. We learn some things about God, and maybe spend the better part of our lives
loving Him and Learning about Him.
We change our behavior and we do everything we do to bring praise and glory to God.
We walk in step with Him and are sorry when we fail Him. Ask for forgiveness and continue in our walk.
Then one comes to a thread like this where it is clearly said that:
Once we are saved, we no longer have to do anything for God.
Works are an insult to Him.
We are saved forever no matter what we do or what we do not do.
Now...
If one goes to a reformed, Calvinist Church, it is OK for them to believe this. This is what the Reformed Church believes.
But, every other mainline denomination does NOT believe this.
Besides this, there is a movement in the Church called Hyper Grace which states that we are required to do NOTHING in order to "remain saved".
IOW, God has changed. He's not the same God anymore.
Before He used to want us to obey Him. Apparently now, He no longer does!
There are persons on here who state, quite clearly, that "works" are not necessary, and that it is not necessary to keep the rules in God's Kingdom -- they are only there to teach us something. What, I don' know. Maybe how to be disobedient?
Then we have a general incorrect understanding of the difference between the OCovenant and the NCovenant.
Seems like the New Covenant is a free for all license to just do what we want because all our sins will be automatically
forgive. Some go so far as to say that it is an insult to God to even ASK FOR FORGIVENESS.
Everything that is believed by Hyper Grace goes against the word of God. Does not John tell us to ask for Forgiveness?
Does James not tell us that Faith without works is a dead faith? Does this not mean that we SHOULD work?
So what are these works?
What do you WANT them to be?
This is all I'll say. I could go on for pages. I'm answering you in the hope that those reading along will understand how incorrect Hyper Grace.
As if the plain, simple, marvelous, GRACE OF GOD is not sufficient for Man...
No. He had to invent Hyper Grace to free himself from, not the grips of satan,
but from the grip of GOD.
We, today, don't wish EVEN GOD to have a grip on us.
We desire to be fully free --- under no one's authority.
Here's why there's no consensus and why I have to leave every now and then because this just goes on and on.
We are all agreed that no one is saved by their own works.
Works are meaningless to God.
We are saved by His grace alone when we come to realize that there is a God and just maybe we'd like to get to know Him.
So by faith, we accept God, we accept Jesus, we accept the Holy Spirit.
We are grateful to Jesus for what He did. We learn some things about God, and maybe spend the better part of our lives
loving Him and Learning about Him.
We change our behavior and we do everything we do to bring praise and glory to God.
We walk in step with Him and are sorry when we fail Him. Ask for forgiveness and continue in our walk.
Then one comes to a thread like this where it is clearly said that:
Once we are saved, we no longer have to do anything for God.
Works are an insult to Him.
We are saved forever no matter what we do or what we do not do.
Now...
If one goes to a reformed, Calvinist Church, it is OK for them to believe this. This is what the Reformed Church believes.
But, every other mainline denomination does NOT believe this.
Besides this, there is a movement in the Church called Hyper Grace which states that we are required to do NOTHING in order to "remain saved".
IOW, God has changed. He's not the same God anymore.
Before He used to want us to obey Him. Apparently now, He no longer does!
There are persons on here who state, quite clearly, that "works" are not necessary, and that it is not necessary to keep the rules in God's Kingdom -- they are only there to teach us something. What, I don' know. Maybe how to be disobedient?
Then we have a general incorrect understanding of the difference between the OCovenant and the NCovenant.
Seems like the New Covenant is a free for all license to just do what we want because all our sins will be automatically
forgive. Some go so far as to say that it is an insult to God to even ASK FOR FORGIVENESS.
Everything that is believed by Hyper Grace goes against the word of God. Does not John tell us to ask for Forgiveness?
Does James not tell us that Faith without works is a dead faith? Does this not mean that we SHOULD work?
So what are these works?
What do you WANT them to be?
This is all I'll say. I could go on for pages. I'm answering you in the hope that those reading along will understand how incorrect Hyper Grace.
As if the plain, simple, marvelous, GRACE OF GOD is not sufficient for Man...
No. He had to invent Hyper Grace to free himself from, not the grips of satan,
but from the grip of GOD.
We, today, don't wish EVEN GOD to have a grip on us.
We desire to be fully free --- under no one's authority.
Hi Desertsrose ...Thank you for that and i totally agree with you, although i did write it was something i heard i have also learned a valuable lesson, not to post on something i have heard lol ...And yes you are right, thank God we have each other to build each other up, and to take correction where it is true, thank you my dear sister...xox...
...Thank you for that and i totally agree with you, although i did write it was something i heard i have also learned a valuable lesson, not to post on something i have heard lol ...And yes you are right, thank God we have each other to build each other up, and to take correction where it is true, thank you my dear sister...xox...
Hi SOF,
No not at all, God's Word says we must follow the Sabbath not me. Some people twist the scriptures like the Jews did in the time of Jesus to break the commandments of God so that they could follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. You can read about it here (Matt 15:3-9). Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man over the Word of God. It has no basis in God's Word. It is one of God's commandments if we break it we break God's Law. If we ignore God's Word that makes us an "Unbeliever". Back latter
God bless
No not at all, God's Word says we must follow the Sabbath not me. Some people twist the scriptures like the Jews did in the time of Jesus to break the commandments of God so that they could follow the teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God. You can read about it here (Matt 15:3-9). Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of man over the Word of God. It has no basis in God's Word. It is one of God's commandments if we break it we break God's Law. If we ignore God's Word that makes us an "Unbeliever". Back latter
God bless
Your true colors are really showing. Genuine believers do not twist the Word of God and try to keep people under the Law. Genuine believers trust in Jesus Christ (and not the Law) as the means of their salvation.I went to the website in your post "The BeastsMark is Coming! and it sounds so familiar.
Bible Truth Versus Adventist Truth - Mark of the Beast
Evening
The fact is that both sides of the argument here, hopefully will have taken time to study enough to be comfortable in what is is they believe, rather than believe what they have been told. To be Bereans as such.
Lets be honest the apostles had disagreements and I am sure they would have argued about it.
I just want to say what my thoughts on the following you said
If I have read it correctly to be honest I am not sure I agree with you. If I have read it incorrectly then please correct (in love of course)
One must determine as to what abide means and its requirements.
John 15:3-6
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we have been made clean by the word, we could say that word is Jesus.
Its apparent we cannot we cannot bear fruit unless we are in/attached to the vine.
As we abide we bear fruit and continue to bear fruit.
Without Jesus we can do nothing.
What worries me is that people are quick to judge when a person is no longer in the vine.
At what point does someone come to that conclusion and why?
Some say they reject Jesus after accepting him and therefore were not really saved to begin with and then we have the reverse.
Some say it's because they don't crucify the vile sins of the flesh whilst some say works keep us saved and some say works show we are saved. Works that keep us saved needs to be quantified to extent of those works and at what level to maintain salvation.
Whilst the reverse may be that we do not need to do works.
With regards to this I actually think that both sides do believe that something has to change and happen in when we have placed faith in Jesus.
I myself am not works keep us saved but works will follow, because we cannot do the works Jesus requires unless we abide in him. NOW THAT BEING THE CASE I just want to give my thoughts with regards to "I can't make you stand firm if you won't to stand firm"
That is totally true. God cannot and will not overide our will. If we don't want to stand firm he says "Ok your choice but you will suffer the consequences" That doesn't necessarily mean they have cut themselves off, they could be just be in a place where they can't come to trust God.
However if a person is not standing firm that does not mean they have severed themselves from the vine.
If a person is truly in the vine and yet is struggling then they will do as this man did
Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
As I said if I have miss interpreted please correct me.
Bill
The fact is that both sides of the argument here, hopefully will have taken time to study enough to be comfortable in what is is they believe, rather than believe what they have been told. To be Bereans as such.
Lets be honest the apostles had disagreements and I am sure they would have argued about it.
I just want to say what my thoughts on the following you said
If I have read it correctly to be honest I am not sure I agree with you. If I have read it incorrectly then please correct (in love of course
)One must determine as to what abide means and its requirements.
John 15:3-6
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we have been made clean by the word, we could say that word is Jesus.
Its apparent we cannot we cannot bear fruit unless we are in/attached to the vine.
As we abide we bear fruit and continue to bear fruit.
Without Jesus we can do nothing.
What worries me is that people are quick to judge when a person is no longer in the vine.
At what point does someone come to that conclusion and why?
Some say they reject Jesus after accepting him and therefore were not really saved to begin with and then we have the reverse.
Some say it's because they don't crucify the vile sins of the flesh whilst some say works keep us saved and some say works show we are saved. Works that keep us saved needs to be quantified to extent of those works and at what level to maintain salvation.
Whilst the reverse may be that we do not need to do works.
With regards to this I actually think that both sides do believe that something has to change and happen in when we have placed faith in Jesus.
I myself am not works keep us saved but works will follow, because we cannot do the works Jesus requires unless we abide in him. NOW THAT BEING THE CASE I just want to give my thoughts with regards to "I can't make you stand firm if you won't to stand firm"
That is totally true. God cannot and will not overide our will. If we don't want to stand firm he says "Ok your choice but you will suffer the consequences" That doesn't necessarily mean they have cut themselves off, they could be just be in a place where they can't come to trust God.
However if a person is not standing firm that does not mean they have severed themselves from the vine.
If a person is truly in the vine and yet is struggling then they will do as this man did
Mark 9:23-24
23 Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”
24 Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”
As I said if I have miss interpreted please correct me.
Bill
It's okay to write something you heard or an explanation someone gave you. It's GOOD for us to talk it out with scripture and each add a verse or two we think applies.
Not sure what you're talking about, haven't followed along well.
But it sounds like you might want to read Romans 5:12-21
We do not have the spirit of God when we're born.
We're born with the effects of Orginal Sin, which is the is the sin Adam commited when he ate the forbidden fruit.
And what was the sin? Disobedience. Exactly what I've been talking about on this thread for 500 pages!
Anyway, we are born lost.
If one dies as a baby, they are NOT lost because they haven't reached the "age of accountability".
God will not send someone to hell if they don't even know about God yet.
Once a person reaches the age of accountability, then they have to decide whether or not they want to be
atheist, agnostic, or a believer. At this point, they ARE held responsible for their decision.
Man is made up of body, soul and spirit.
When a baby is born, he has a body and a soul.
Animals have a soul too -- that's why each one is different.
When a person comes to know God, they then receive the spirit of God.
They are now a complete person. Their SPIRIT will also AFFECT their soul...
Which means that their ACTIONS and BEHAVIOR will change and that all their works, or deeds, which are good will now be done to the glory of God.
(you might already know all this)
Blessings
This is very wise. You refuse to judge but instead leave it to God. I believe failing to abide puts one in danger of being cut off, and I STILL refuse to judge that in another. I clearly perceive that we are all in some error in places. If a day comes when I discover that I have no error at all, maybe then I would judge.
Speaking one's mind does not mean they are judging anyone.
Judging someone's doctrine is NOT judging them.
Judging a person is when someone says ... "you're going to hell".
(as has been said to me on this thread)
NO ONE KNOWS THE HEART.
ONLY GOD KNOWS.
No one is allowed to judge another's soul !!