Not By Works

JIMBO43 · Aug 4, 2017

One must ask was it the spirit which God has placed in moses that he devided bewteen 70 elders ? or was it the spirt of moses ?...

Now one would think hmmmmmmmmm lol

now i will think my think hehe... i think that moses was give the strenght of an ox and the spirit of a lion.. along with the spirit of a lamb.. it was so powerful that seventy men could share it....

This means for the the 500th time moses saved no-one.. only moses works that flew from the grace of God did...

JIMBO43 · Aug 4, 2017

Hatchy3 said:

it is by grace we are saved yes... but it is also by our grace we bare fruits...

if we dont we become unsaved....sorry to spoil your party...

blessings

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

AllenW said:

GM allen!

I don't think it can be quite so simply stated. (Referring to your last sentence here.)
Remember how satan tried to get Jesus to only look at one verse apart from another verse that gives it its' roundness?
He tries to do this to us too. (And he sometimes succeeds with us like he did not succeed with Jesus.)

Most of the arguments in here are that exact thing happening. (From BOTH sides.)

There are so many verses we are duped into taking apart that we may as well say it's ALL of them.
God is both kind AND severe.
He can save to the uttermost IF you abide in Him and a verse says in agreement, I can't make you stand firm if you won't stand firm.

For every verse there is a verse in tension to it. Rightly dividing the word is to say: yes, but God has also said such and such. That's how Jesus responded to attempts to take a verse and run to the side with it. He gave the verse in tension to it. This doesn't mean one of them is right and one of them is wrong. It means they fit together and that if you take one apart from the other, you have not divided well.

Grace777x70 · Aug 4, 2017

There is only one way to lose salvation ( and ironically it is all based on the Lord Jesus Christ - funny how that is a re-occurring theme...selah )

If Jesus fails as our High Priest who stands as us before the Father. He is called the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

A priest stands in the place and represents his people. Our High Priest is after the order of Melchizedek who has and endless and "indestructible" life.

When He falls and fails - then we will too because we are one spirit with Him.

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

followjesus said:

This is most excellent!
Nice to meet you!
(I think I've read your posts but your picture wasn't there before...somehow it makes me say nice to meet you!

)

FranC · Aug 4, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

GM allen!

I don't think it can be quite so simply stated. (Referring to your last sentence here.)
Remember how satan tried to get Jesus to only look at one verse apart from another verse that gives it its' roundness?
He tries to do this to us too. (And he sometimes succeeds with us like he did not succeed with Jesus.)

Most of the arguments in here are that exact thing happening. (From BOTH sides.)

There are so many verses we are duped into taking apart that we may as well say it's ALL of them.
God is both kind AND severe.
He can save to the uttermost IF you abide in Him and a verse says in agreement, I can't make you stand firm if you won't stand firm.

For every verse there is a verse in tension to it. Rightly dividing the word is to say: yes, but God has also said such and such. That's how Jesus responded to attempts to take a verse and run to the side with it. He gave the verse in tension to it. This doesn't mean one of them is right and one of them is wrong. It means they fit together and that if you take one apart from the other, you have not divided well.

AMEN AND PRAISE THE LORD!!

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

Meggido said:

I have thought a lot about this because one of the apostles goes over it very thoroughly. He seems to want his listeners to understand WHO God later became displeased with so they will not make the same mistakes. He specifically says: And WHO did God nevertheless become displeased with? Wasn't it THOSE HE SAVED? (When they didn't remain trustful/didn't abide).

FranC · Aug 4, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

they will and have.. they just dont get that its our are expression of his fruits...
it is writen that we are to praise are brothers and sisters and reward them too...you do have to realise also that your good works are 50 50...this is why we are rewarded and fall in and stay in favor with the most high

yes His grace is sufficeient enough for you to produce Good works where by you do get some credit for them

..

I think here lies the dilema.. there are things we must do for our selfs otherwise the enemy will trample all over us...

No 1 We must not let the enemy make us be angry.. we who are born of the first fruits must control our anger..

we will be credited for this

Yes to all.
I sure hope you don't think I'M angry?
Sorry if it sounds like it...

garee · Aug 4, 2017

FranC said:

It was the same Spirit of Christ who spoke in both cases. If any man does not have the Sprit of Christ they do not belong to him. A person cannot abide in Christ if they do not have the Spirit of Christ .that person is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. If any man does have the Spirit of Christ they will not come into condemnation.

FranC · Aug 4, 2017

garee said:

Could you please provide some scripture?

You're saying that if a person does not have the spirit of Christ, that person is cast forth as a branch and it withers and men gather them and cast them into the fire and burned.

You're quoting
John 15:6

Unfortunately Jesus is speaking here of bearing fruit, as He usually did in all His teachings.
For instance, even in Mathew 7:19.

Could you please post a scripture that says that if one does not have THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST he will be cut off and throw into the fire.

Thanks.

John 15:5-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

I have enjoyed this last night when I returned and this morning also. Without the nastiness, it's really refreshing to listen and learn what each of you has to add!

Grace777x70 · Aug 4, 2017

garee said:

Amen!

Abiding is not a work that we do - it's a reality we have because we are in Christ and He is in us.

1 John 2:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

1 John 4:15-19 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

[SUP]17 [/SUP] By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.

[SUP]18 [/SUP] There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

[SUP]19 [/SUP] We love, because He first loved us.

How do we get this "abiding love in us" that John talked about in verse 16? Paul tells us in Romans 5:5.

Romans 5:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Abiding is Christ or in God is not a "work" - it is a reality of our union with Christ in our new creation.

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

I have wondered about a verse for a long time so I may as well ask the opinions of all of you since I am finding you all to be a great help while we walk well in here.

It is the verses that say: Woe...it will be more tolerable or better for these or those unbelievers than it will be for you on the day of judgement. (My paraphrase).

The verse astounds me.
I have thought of it together with: If you didn't say you could see, you would have no sin, but since you say you can see...

I can't quite glean it though.

garee · Aug 4, 2017

How much credit does a person need to maintain his false pride? 1%..17%...99%

We are saved by the work of Christ faith and kept by the same eternal work. It is Christ who makes men differ from one another. Boasting as if he does not freely give men his will to do His good pleasure with no cost on our behalf introduces puffing up one against the other, the boasting game which in the end rises up above that which is written. We walk by the faith of our unseen God who works in us both will and do His good pleasure called a imputed righteousness. Not by performing a work and saying I can do it alone. Empty boasts

Either Christ does all he eternal work or he has done nothing

1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
1Co 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

I can see you are trying to puff of Moses also as if he was in the place of God . We simply do not measure the faith of Christ that works in us faith in respect to the creature. The Spirt of Christ infroms us that is Blasphemy .

Grace777x70 · Aug 4, 2017

Scripture is very clear. There is a "cosmic" or "universal" aspect to Christ's work on the cross.

All people of the world were included in Christ's work on the cross. Rom. 5 speaks of this as does 2 Cor. 5:14.

They must believe in order to receive what Christ has already done in His finished work.

There is a vast difference between a universal atonement and "universalism" which says that all dogs go to heaven.

1 Timothy 4:10 (NASB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NASB)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

We see a picture of this when the 2 thieves "were crucified with Him".

The fact that the Holy Spirit put in the truth of the 2 thieves "being crucified with Him" in all 4 gospel accounts shows the importance of it.

One believed and the other didn't.

When people receive the gospel message of the forgiveness of sins - these remain/abide/stay in Christ - those that do not - will be cut off. John 15:6

The other aspect to this is that we "believers" need to live by Christ's finished work in order to bear fruit unto God. It is His life that bears the fruit.

We don't "generate" fruit on our own - we abide in Christ's life and His life produces the "sap" for fruit-bearing as He alone is the true Vine.

Without Him and His finished work on the cross and resurrection - we can do nothing.

Truth is like an onion - it has many facets to it...

Stunnedbygrace · Aug 4, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

There is one more verse I believe ties in that has also astounded me.
The one where it says:Now I will destroy the righteous along with the wicked. (Jaw dropping).

notuptome · Aug 4, 2017

FranC said:

Are we in the kingdom of God or is it yet to come?

The subject is not me but the kingdom of God. All sin is banished from the presence of God. In the kingdom of God there is no sin therefore there is no need of the law. The law shows transgression and there will be no transgression in the kingdom of God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Ariel82 · Aug 4, 2017

Heavenly Rewards
https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Heavenly-Rewards

1 Corinthians 3:11-14
For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work.
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

Matthew 5:12
"Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Daniel 12:3
"Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.

notuptome · Aug 4, 2017

FranC said:

Salvation is a one time event. It is described as a new birth a Spiritual rebirth. Upon the rebirth into Christ the process of sanctification begins and is completed when we are united with our Savior. We are made complete in Him when we shed this body of flesh and are glorified in Him for all of eternity.

I wish you had personal knowledge of this event.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

willybob · Aug 4, 2017

FranC said:

Greetings Fran; as you say, verse 8 has to be reconciled with the whole chapter and even the whole epistle of 1 John. In chapter 3 it says he who sins is of the devil, and those born of God cannot sin, meaning its impossible to sin (willful rebellious sin) if one is ABIDING in Christ..Also, the Holy Spirit cannot sin, and will not remain in an unclean rebellious sinful vessel .

.Its my conclusion that "have no sin" means "have not sinned" in the past. verse 10 uses the same Greek conjunctive word (ou) and is translated "not sinned" (have not sinned in the past)....Verse 8 cant possibly mean always actively sinning, and if so, it would cancel out all of Johns teaching in his epistles....(common sense).................I like the KJV and think it is most excellent. However the translators were under heavy delusion from Calvinist and Luther doctrine, as were the new age bible translations after Westcott & Hort....I am convinced the verse should read if we say we have not sinned...it cannot possibly mean having sin in you daily...

Note: the born in sin lie is the center seed of all false doctrine, and the perfect excuse for continuing in sin daily. it maligns all other doctrines thereafter, because the very premise is faulty...It also maligns God's character by blacking His integrity.........The Reformation doctrine was all derived from Augustine, who is the rotten root of Christian theology. Most of his understandings were derived from Platonist thought and not the scriptures. Luther and Calvin were devout students of Augustine, and also Aristotle/Plato....Sadly most of what is called Christian theology is centered around the mind of Plato and paganism....The Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas, who devised the myth of satisfactory atonement in the 13th century, was a devout student of Aristotle and Plato...Luther used Aquinas works to further develop the lie by inventing Penal Substitution atonement, along with positional righteousness based on the gnostic belief of a dual nature.....This has completely undermined manifest reality via covenant theology, and obedience to God's commands from heart purity, thus seeking to do that which pleases the Father.........be blessed always

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